Discuss the Epiclogue

[Bob T Dwarf]

You go around letting random people, who you can´t trust fully, tell you what you do? No objections, no arguments, no discussion, just do what a letter tells you to.

 

This was Verins screwup, not Mats.

 

No. It was Mat's failure to think and to trust. Verin expended considerable effort finding him. Would she do that if it wasn't vital? In fact The Wheel made it impossible for her to do anything else. Would The Wheel go to that much trouble if that letter wasn't freaking vital beyond anything else?

 

Mat's problem is that he's still an entirely self-centered child. He thinks everything is about him. Verin's need for him to do something had to be because she just wanted to mess with him. Aes Sedai in general and Verin in particular only exist to make his life miserable. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

 

Once again and for the 47th time, Mat wins the Prat of the Week Award.

[Caius Callus]

Mat really only did what any sensible person would do; Avoided further entanglements with Aes Sedai. Entirely in character, and should not have been assumed. Verin was not as all-wise as some readers would claim. If she was, she wouldn't have gotten herself into the Black Ajah in the forst place.

[aynatal2000]

I don't think Olver's a sociopath, he's just a kid whose view of the world is not yet matured.

As far as the Shadowspawn invasion of Caemlyn, now that is a Very Bad Thing. I seriously hope Talmanes somehow manages to pull off a ridiculous maneuver and at least get the dragons and get away. But that's not gonna end well.

 

I also don't think Lan is going to die, or at the very least he won't die without reinforcements. New Jesus-Rand promised Nynaeve that he would send Lan help, and I don't see Rand reneging on that. We also do not see Nyaeve for nearly the entire second half of the book, if I recall correctly. This makes me rather suspicious as to where she has gone and what she might be doing.

Mat's is going to kick so wild Shadow spawn ass's

I agree about Lan.When Nyn realized that she could heal just about anything she became adamant about getting Lan's bond; not just beacause of the marriage but because of something she believes. Why do I think she is going to be able to help/heal him through the bond especially if she can get him to tellanrhiod( sorry about the spelling), where need and thought are more powerful than channeling and weaves.

One question - since Mat is the Prince of Ravens does that make the Towers of Midnight his Fief or property? He is the Prince of Battles(aelfinn/eelfin) and that is what the Seanchan erected the towers for - a place to repel the enemy from.

[Zentari]

Mat really only did what any sensible person would do; Avoided further entanglements with Aes Sedai. Entirely in character, and should not have been assumed. Verin was not as all-wise as some readers would claim. If she was, she wouldn't have gotten herself into the Black Ajah in the forst place.

She made him swear to do as she said which was her failing.She could have instead said : "After a day or two please open the letter ".If she though he wouldn't believe her she could have swore in front of him that everything in that envelope was true down to the last letter.

She tried but in the end she behaved too much like the Aes Sedai that she was.

[FainsLeftFoot]

It is a shot in the dark here but ill go for it. Thousands upon thousands of trollocs popping out of nowhere and Aiel that aren't quite like Aiel.... Could it be that Demandreds "rule" isn't in randland, but in a mirror world? This would enable him to double maybe triple the trolloc numbers and perhaps the world he went to had corrupt aiel? So these sharpened teeth ones are a portal world army? Its possible I think

[Bob T Dwarf]

It is a shot in the dark here but ill go for it. Thousands upon thousands of trollocs popping out of nowhere and Aiel that aren't quite like Aiel.... Could it be that Demandreds "rule" isn't in randland, but in a mirror world? This would enable him to double maybe triple the trolloc numbers and perhaps the world he went to had corrupt aiel? So these sharpened teeth ones are a portal world army? Its possible I think

 

I've been waiting for eleven books for the other shoe to drop about Portal Stones and Mirror Worlds. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if many of the Dark Forces come from the Worlds of If where the Shadow has had the most success.

[didymos]

Then we see he doesn't hero worship Mat and doesn't seem to even like him all that much aside from what Mat could teach him.

 

Er, no.

 

Olver was Mat's personal messenger, all official and everything. It was no wonder Mat sometimes forgot things, but it was Olver's job to take care of him. Now that Lopin was gone, Mat would need extra taking care of. It was one of the reasons Olver stayed with the Band. He was not sure what Mat would do without him.

 

Kid's a lot like Mat: he cares quite a bit about quite a lot of people and things, but he rationalizes it to himself to feel more like he has some control over his life. Which is only to be expected, given what happened to him and who he's really been emulating all along.

[nolirion]

Mat really only did what any sensible person would do; Avoided further entanglements with Aes Sedai. Entirely in character, and should not have been assumed. Verin was not as all-wise as some readers would claim. If she was, she wouldn't have gotten herself into the Black Ajah in the forst place.

She made him swear to do as she said which was her failing.She could have instead said : "After a day or two please open the letter ".If she though he wouldn't believe her she could have swore in front of him that everything in that envelope was true down to the last letter.

She tried but in the end she behaved too much like the Aes Sedai that she was.

Like much she did grasp fully mat's personalities

[didymos]

The whole Psycho-Olver thing hit me out of the blue. I was hoping he wasn't going to kill Talmanes for denying that he won the Snakes and Foxes game.

 

Why would you even think that? There's zero indication that he's hostile. He just decides Talmanes obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and drops the subject, then gets up to stretch his legs a bit. The worst thing he thinks about Talmanes is that he's not the ideal wingman for a night of tavern-hopping and charming the serving-girls. Other than that minor character flaw, Olver thinks he's a reasonably righteous dude.

[didymos]

No. It was Mat's failure to think and to trust. Verin expended considerable effort finding him. Would she do that if it wasn't vital? In fact The Wheel made it impossible for her to do anything else. Would The Wheel go to that much trouble if that letter wasn't freaking vital beyond anything else?

 

Or, you know, maybe it was to get the Mat and the Band to Caemlyn, safety, and Elayne's coffers for the dragon-making. Which is what he thought and it was a perfectly reasonable thought to have, especially with Verin telling him that's what it was about.

 

He thinks everything is about him.

 

Well, she expended a fair amount of effort convincing him that that particular event was all about him and his need for rapid transportation, and her sudden insistence on a price after that for inconveniencing her (which is exactly how she made it sound) did little to convince him the letter was anything but another Aes Sedai annoyance. The fact that she turned it into a little negotiating game did little to disabuse him of that idea.

[nolirion]

The whole Psycho-Olver thing hit me out of the blue. I was hoping he wasn't going to kill Talmanes for denying that he won the Snakes and Foxes game.

 

Why would you even think that? There's zero indication that he's hostile. He just decides Talmanes obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and drops the subject, then gets up to stretch his legs a bit. The worst thing he thinks about Talmanes is that he's not the ideal wingman for a night of tavern-hopping and charming the serving-girls. Other than that minor character flaw, Olver thinks he's a reasonably righteous dude.

Seriously I agree Olver is just an adolescent we live the apocalypse he is a good kid a bit ugly tough

[Bob T Dwarf]

No. It was Mat's failure to think and to trust. Verin expended considerable effort finding him. Would she do that if it wasn't vital? In fact The Wheel made it impossible for her to do anything else. Would The Wheel go to that much trouble if that letter wasn't freaking vital beyond anything else?

 

Or, you know, maybe it was to get the Mat and the Band to Caemlyn, safety, and Elayne's coffers for the dragon-making. Which is what he thought and it was a perfectly reasonable thought to have, especially with Verin telling him that's what it was about.

 

He thinks everything is about him.

 

Well, she expended a fair amount of effort convincing him that that particular event was all about him and his need for rapid transportation, and her sudden insistence on a price after that for inconveniencing her (which is exactly how she made it sound) did little to convince him the letter was anything but another Aes Sedai annoyance. The fact that she turned it into a little negotiating game did little to disabuse him of that idea.

 

No matter how rational you try to make it, fact is that Mat is paranoid about Aes Sedai. Not sure why. All they've really ever done to him is keep him from dying to the corruption on Mordeth's dagger, and heal him of the damage his greedy stupidity had done to himself.

 

Prat of the Week. One more win and he gets to retire the trophy

[Caius Callus]

Prat of the Week. One more win and he gets to retire the trophy

I bet you really love Perrin and/or Verin, don't you?

They didn't just heal him, they also attempted to keep him prisoner in the Tower withoutany proper cause.

 

Why so much hate?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Prat of the Week. One more win and he gets to retire the trophy

I bet you really love Perrin and/or Verin, don't you?

They didn't just heal him, they also attempted to keep him prisoner in the Tower withoutany proper cause.

 

Why so much hate?

 

Not hate. Just fatigue with his lack of development. His childish behaviour stopped being cute or funny 9-10 books ago.

 

Truthfully, Perrin is dead to me. His lack of any real morality makes him anathema.

 

Verin was OK. She made the best lemonade she could with the lemons she had.

 

Now, Cadsuane, well let me just say, DIE, Cadsuane, DIE!

[GusE]

Mat's actions probably saved the world, remember Egwene's dream: "Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended...She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps." Mat did make the "right" choice.

 

And I think Verin did as she did because going to someone else would be risky and may not get the job done, but having a very strong Ta'veren promise to take care of it, now that would ease your mind. However I don't think this is simply childish behaviour on Mat's part, rather his Ta'veren nature is probably what made sure he didn't open the letter and instead focused on saving Moiraine.

[capuga]

Prat of the Week. One more win and he gets to retire the trophy

I bet you really love Perrin and/or Verin, don't you?

They didn't just heal him, they also attempted to keep him prisoner in the Tower withoutany proper cause.

 

Why so much hate?

 

Not hate. Just fatigue with his lack of development. His childish behaviour stopped being cute or funny 9-10 books ago.

 

Truthfully, Perrin is dead to me. His lack of any real morality makes him anathema.

 

Verin was OK. She made the best lemonade she could with the lemons she had.

 

Now, Cadsuane, well let me just say, DIE, Cadsuane, DIE!

 

Yet look at all the selfless acts that Mat performs:

- Goes to Tear to rescue the wonder girls even knowing there are darkfriends and possibly worse waiting.

- Goes back into battle at Carhien to save some soldiers that did not know they were about to be overrun by Aiel even though he could have just escaped the battle.

- Saves Aludra from the other Illuminators trying to kill her.

- Saves Olver from a bully nobleman and then continues caring for him like he is family.

- Saves Elayne from the gholam in Ebou Dar.

- Searches for Olver in Ebou Dar while it is beseiged by Seanchan.

- Rescues three Aes Sedai from the Seanchan.

- Frees the Windfinders in Ebou Dar even though it jeopardizes his escape plans.

- Goes into the ToG to rescue a woman he doesn't even like just because his friend asks him to.

- Willingly gives up his eye to save the woman he doesn't like and because it might help the world.

- Continually shows regret at the deaths of any of his men.

- Gives the strongman Petra a bunch of gold.

- And I'm sure I'm missing many others

 

You are being way too harsh on Mat. His joking and apparent immaturity cover up a person that has consistently been shown to be caring and selfless.

[Jackattack]

 

 

Now, Cadsuane, well let me just say, DIE, Cadsuane, DIE!

 

I could not agree more. Hope she dies due to exposure to Justin Bieber music. Also, you could throw in any random number of the random name generator Aes Sedai that came about in the last 5 or so books. Bring the series back where it was best, with the original cast so to speak.

[decrepid dragon]

Prat of the Week. One more win and he gets to retire the trophy

I bet you really love Perrin and/or Verin, don't you?

They didn't just heal him, they also attempted to keep him prisoner in the Tower withoutany proper cause.

 

Why so much hate?

 

Not hate. Just fatigue with his lack of development. His childish behaviour stopped being cute or funny 9-10 books ago.

 

Truthfully, Perrin is dead to me. His lack of any real morality makes him anathema.

 

Verin was OK. She made the best lemonade she could with the lemons she had.

 

Now, Cadsuane, well let me just say, DIE, Cadsuane, DIE!

 

Sooooo, um, do you like any characters? Apart from maybe that farmer in the Apples first? Why are you still reading this series?

 

EDIT: although yes I agree, DIE, Cadsuane, DIE!

 

And Verins stratergy to get him to open the letter was pure FAIL. Did you read what the letter said? 'If I am not back in a day then I am dead. Your curiosity probably made you open this in a couple days'. Why not just ask him to open the letter in a week and let him decide on whether or not to act on it? What did she think he was going to do? Open the letter, read it, and cause he wasn't forced to obey the command go "Well up yours Caemlyn, I'm gonna catch me a gateway to Tear and do my drinking there instead, without showing this letter to anyone"? Useless.

 

And I don't see why he should trust AS. They healed him, which they have done to THOUSANDS if not TENS OF THOUSANDS of randoms in Randland, for free. They did heal him of his link to the Shadar Logoth dagger, but then try and keep him there for admittedly his own good but they act all suprerior, and are militaristic in making him stay. And its mostly because of his link to Rand and their desire to control him, nice as it would be to think they were doing it because they were altruistic.

Then when he gets entangled in AS he Breaks three of the more passionate and supposedly sensible future AS (EEN trio) out of the Ston of Tear and gets woven in air and told to keep his nose out of AS affairs, after breaking into the most impenatrable fortress in the world, which he only traveled to to deliver a warning. Not because he knew they were captured, just to warn them (until he got there of course, then he decided to break into the most impenatrable fortress alone). Then he agrees to help find the bowl of winds and loses Nealsan and some others to the gollum and meets it for the first time, as it was going after Elayne and them not him. Then he could have gotten away from Ebou Dar pretty easy on his own, but helps 3 AS escape once again from the goodness of his heart. Then he agrees to break into ToG and free moiraine (who he admittedly thanks at the end of the book in his head for showing him the wider world), which he downright fears, and although he rationalises its because he 'wants them out of his head' you can tell its mainly because his friend asked him to and is just a nice guy. And Joline, ahh Joline. Ungrateful so-and-so. Teslyn was alright though.

 

I can see he should be leaping with joy and running through meadows at the mere chance to be able to do what AS tell him to.

[Guest Yellowchopsticks]

Long time lurker here, but I kind of had a different view of the creepy red Aiel than what's been said so far. I was confused to what they were at first, but then I read the Shadow Prophecy at the end and had a rather creepier concept of them. The last paragraph of the shown prophecy talked about the Dark One taking the eyes, souls, skin, flesh, and lips of Darkfriends, and to scream and beg for their own destruction.

 

At that point, I sort of figured that the creepy red Aiel were a small group of Darkfriend Aiel (since there were only 3 of them, there's been small groups of Aiel wandering about for a while now), that had been taken over by the Dark One, sort of like his finger puppets, a peon form of Shaidar Haran. Their veils red from being soaked in blood as they self-mutilated and filed their teeth to look more horrifying to their victims. Not that they'd care about pain, they're just finger puppets now.

 

Then I had a scary thought of every Darkfriend around the world, in high places and low, turning into Dark One finger puppets all at the same time to wreak havoc and destruction upon the land. Frankly, I think this would be a more dangerous prospect than a force of Sharans or Blight Aiel, since it would mean that Darkfriends would suddenly become perfectly coordinated in their efforts, and vastly more competant, not to mention that they would already be everywhere. They'd be more powerful than normal people like how Shaidar Haran is more powerful than regular Myrddraals; stronger, faster, tougher and tougher to kill. My mind even went "Dun dun dun."

[waffle]

And Verins stratergy to get him to open the letter was pure FAIL. Did you read what the letter said? 'If I am not back in a day then I am dead. Your curiosity probably made you open this in a couple days'. Why not just ask him to open the letter in a week and let him decide on whether or not to act on it? What did she think he was going to do? Open the letter, read it, and cause he wasn't forced to obey the command go "Well up yours Caemlyn, I'm gonna catch me a gateway to Tear and do my drinking there instead, without showing this letter to anyone"? Useless.

 

This.

 

You don´t have a leg to stand on Dwarf. Verin did a lot of good stuff but she screwed up here.

 

And mat doesn´t want anyone to tell him what to do, not just Aes Sedai. As for his debts to the Aes Sedai for healing him, he has paid that many times over. The AS risked nothing by healing him. he has put his neck on the line for AS several times.

[Charlz Guybon]

Cameyln being sacked was the biggest surprise. Perhaps that is why it is so crucial to TG. Ive been trying to think of who got left behind, but its not really clear. I'm glad that something bad is happening to Elayne, I never realized how arrogant she is until I read this book. The Light will probably lose the dragons, which may or may not change their approach to the Seanchan, who by the way seem to be gunnin pretty hard for the WT.

I was surprised by this since Aviendha's 2nd trip through the glass columns that showed the future said that Caemyln would survive and survive as the capital of a powerful Andor.

[Cyf]

Might still. The Inner City has a powerful wall, according to Mat's memories. I have a hilarious thought on this, actually.

 

Caemlyn is attacked. Talmanes is barely holding on. In comes Seanchan forces, led by Mat, to save the day. Mat: Don't SAY IT, TALMANES. Talmanes: Say what, Prince of Ravens? Mat: ARGH!

[Charlz Guybon]

Also I must say Lan is a moron.

 

"Waah... I don't want to lead men to their death.", this goes on for three chapters.

 

"We're outnumbered at least 12 to 1 by Trollocs. Lets charge them and die rather than retreat to the walls of Fal Dara where we might slow their invasion of Shienar down."

 

As stupid as that uncle that took 5,000 lances into the Blasted Lands. If Nynaeve gates into the prologue and says his ass by driving the Trollocs off with her angreal I'm gonna be annoyed. Though I'm sure it would be an awesome scene.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Sooooo, um, do you like any characters? Apart from maybe that farmer in the Apples first? Why are you still reading this series?

 

EDIT: although yes I agree, DIE, Cadsuane, DIE!

 

 

After The Eye of the World I promised myself I'd finish because a retelling of Ragnarok is always worth reading.

 

I really like Furyk Karede.

 

Everybody else is so morally ambiguous that it's really difficult to find anyone to like.

 

As for how Mat is supposed to treat Aes Sedai, it's in his enlightened self interest to assist them in preserving the world. He doesn't have to love 'em. He doesn't have to fawn over them. But, he does need to use his brain for more than keeping his ears apart. He does need to grow up and realize life is about more than just him.

 

The Wheel has enough to do without having to constantly maneuver him into doing the right thing. It would be enormously refreshing if he'd just grow up and choose to do that himself.

[A. Pseudonym]

Would The Wheel go to that much trouble if that letter wasn't freaking vital beyond anything else?

 

I'd just like to point out, if it hasn't been already, that should the Pattern have intended for Mat to open the letter on time then he would have done so.

 

As a taveren, his actions are more closely aligned to the Patern's intent.