Discuss the Epiclogue

[Crael123]

I have to agree the epilogue was epic. Officially finished last night. but just wow... Caemlyn... I did NOT see that coming. I can not believe it got sacked. And olver, our very own budding psychopath! That was messed up. The red aiel things were meeeeessed up and scary. but they are not aiel because they have dark eyes and red veils. probably sharans. Lan... Rand better bail you out or i will be PISSED.

[Crael123]

And Graendal you suck. To think you used to be my favorite.

[Erunion]

Do keep in mind, Caemlyn has two walls, the outer wall and the wall to the inner city. The Waygate is in the outer city (the ogier grove was outside of the inner city, but was built over by the outer city). As we know from Mat's POV's, there are guards at the gates of the inner city. It is quite possible that they, or others of the Queens guards, were able to close the gates to the inner city before the trollocs poured through.

I expect that when Talmanes arrives, we'll have a huge battle in a burning outer city, while the inner city desperately holds against the trolloc hordes.

 

Finally, Olver is not a psycopath! Or a Sociopath, or any other path! He's just a kid who has led a messed up life. A really, really messed up life.

[Duskfire]

Finally, Olver is not a psycopath! Or a Sociopath, or any other path! He's just a kid who has led a messed up life. A really, really messed up life.

 

Thats how a psychopath generally becomes a psychopath - by having a messed up life :P

 

He just didn't think like a kid. I dont know whether he'll do anything bad per say, but he is definetly... different in the way he thinks. And I believe we got his POV for a reason other then just to read the letter and whatnot. Wanting to kill of whoever killed his family is a normal reaction, but not really for a 10 year old; wanting to use others to achieve those ends is also normal, but not for a 10 year old. Something will happen as a result of it; it may not be bad. But he is definetly not normal.

[Chesus]

She did not in any way say it was important. :) She SHOULD have, but she DID NOT. The 'I might not need you' implies otherwise. So can people stop saying Verin made the message sound dire? She did not. Heck, before that she warns him about the DF posters, and that is said far more balefully.

 

Good find that! Your right, nowhere does Verin stress that its important, and if anything she makes it seem casual and that it doesnt matter whether he opens it or not. I am sure if Mat knew of the importance of the letter he would have opened it, but to him it could have been anything.

 

Reread the stuff before the quoted passage. The Wheel had made it impossible for Verin to go anywhere but to Mat.

 

If Mat was rubbing even two brain cells together, he would have appreciated that fact. But, instead of doing any constructive thinking, he lapsed into his paranoia about Aes Sedai.

 

Fact of life: No matter how perfectly you believe you have done anything, somebody can always find an even better way. So sure, Verin could have phrased things differently, but since Mat was only taking counsel from his own irrational fears, it wouldn't have mattered, he'd have rationalized some way to avoid opening the letter anyway.

 

The problem is not anything Verin did or did not do. The problem is Mat's paranoia, and his unwillingness to address it.

 

Mat is a fascinating psychological study: On the one hand his grandiosity knows no limits ( he's SO important that every Aes Sedai he encounters wants nothing more than to ensnare him in some grand devious plot ) and on the other hand he's totally insignificant ( he foolishly believes that there is some place he can go that will let him safely sit-out Tarmon Gaidon, and that he should do so because he's only an insignificant kid from a backwoods village and not really needed ).

 

In short, he's a shoo-in for Prat of the Week yet again this week.

 

 

We get it. You dislike Mat. The horse is dead, man. Move on.

[Astus]

I think they made too much of a point of the Palace (or was it Inner City) being like a defensible city on its own without giving it such a use unless you know trollocs are going to use the same path that Rand did in TEOTW

Hopefully the destruction doesn't reach that point though.

[Yehosh]

when it says "Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Mdnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

do most people agree that Death with a capitol D can refer to Moridin? (his name means death right?) and may it doesn't necessarily mean someone that has died but simply someone that has known Ishamael. or maybe it means both

 

there has been a lot of speculation that the broken wolf is Lan, but I really don't see Moridin wasting his time with Lan right now or ever knowing him.

 

So maybe the broken Wolf is... Jain Farstrider. The whole world knows of him. Moridin knew (and deceived) him.

 

Isam is another good option, has died but reincarnated or something (who knows how Slayer was created) and he certainly knows Moridin. But why would his destruction bring sorrow to the hearts of men... unless, his destruction actually means the creation of Slayer not his actual demise, and that would surely bring sorrow to Lans army, seeing Isam fighting for the shadow.

 

Could also be someone else that Moridin has known, maybe some pen pal or a distant cousin but I'm trying to think of someone that people will mourn.

 

So, options are:

Lan - I doubt it, not sure why but just don't see it

Slayer - not a bad option, especially since we've see him in a shadow prophecy before. One book left, and we all know Lan and Isam need to confront each other in some form of therapy, this may be what this line is referring to.

Farstrider - maybe...

Ituralde - too small of a character to be in a major prophecy IMO

Hopper - why would anyone but Perrin care about him and feel sorrow

[Sharaman]

The method of destruction might be spectacular enough to bring fear and sorrow, regardless of who is being destroyed.

Also if the "men" in question are DFs, their responses may be different from normal people.

Another reading - the destruction "the Broken Wolf" causes might bring fear and sorrow.

If the "men" are DFs and the BW =Ituralde, he might just pull off a spectacular battlefield victory that destroys DFs and brings fear and sorrow to them.

[Yehosh]

The method of destruction might be spectacular enough to bring fear and sorrow, regardless of who is being destroyed.

Also if the "men" in question are DFs, their responses may be different from normal people.

Another reading - the destruction "the Broken Wolf" causes might bring fear and sorrow.

If the "men" are DFs and the BW =Ituralde, he might just pull off a spectacular battlefield victory that destroys DFs and brings fear and sorrow to them.

 

I think you're missing the pattern with the shadow prophecies. They all predict the shadow winning, not Ituralde kicking whooping them in battle.

 

Here is the dark prophecy from TGH regarding Slayer:

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are

The Time of Change has come.

 

So we know Slayer has known death (one did die). Shawdow's hounds? maybe related to a broken wolf.

 

Here is Luc's description from TSR:

He is tall, broad-shouldered and in his middle years. He has a hard, angular face and dark reddish hair white-winged at the temples. He has dark blue eyes. He wears a wolf's-head buckle on his belt.

 

hmmm...

[FossMaNo1]

when it says "Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Mdnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

do most people agree that Death with a capitol D can refer to Moridin? (his name means death right?) and may it doesn't necessarily mean someone that has died but simply someone that has known Ishamael. or maybe it means both

 

Egads, but I just had a thought. Wolves are known as cunning and lucky (as in the "Dark One's own luck"). Who else do we know who is very lucky? I can think of two: Lan and Mat. However, I agree that in the grand scheme of things Lan is relatively unimportant to Morridin. Mat, however, is being actively hunted by DF assassins. I also am pinging off the word "Broken." When used in regards to animals, "broken" means "to cause to yield." Mat has essentially been broken ever since he married Tuon. He is no longer carefree but now has to think like a married man, something he constantly reminds himself of nowadays. We also know the Towers of Midnight refer to the towers in Seanchan. What if Mat will not live happily ever after with Tuon, but instead is consumed by Seanchan (methaphorically or literally) and is essentially destroyed by the government. Look at how many lives Mat has touched. He even has a few Aes Sedai that like and appreciate him. What kind of effect would his destruction bring to the world around him?

 

Even the luckiest man alive can be slain by the Dark One.

 

Yikes...

[Mr Ares]

Finally, Olver is not a psycopath! Or a Sociopath, or any other path! He's just a kid who has led a messed up life. A really, really messed up life.

 

Thats how a psychopath generally becomes a psychopath - by having a messed up life :P

 

He just didn't think like a kid.

A compelling argument for him being badly written, not so much for him being a psychopath.

I dont know whether he'll do anything bad per say, but he is definetly... different in the way he thinks. And I believe we got his POV for a reason other then just to read the letter and whatnot. Wanting to kill of whoever killed his family is a normal reaction, but not really for a 10 year old; wanting to use others to achieve those ends is also normal, but not for a 10 year old. Something will happen as a result of it; it may not be bad. But he is definetly not normal.

I agree olver isn't exactly a normal ten year old. There is, however, a significant difference between being merely abnormal and being psychopathic, and Olver isn't the latter. For one thing, he cares about other people, particularly Mat.

 

Egads, but I just had a thought. Wolves are known as cunning and lucky (as in the "Dark One's own luck"). Who else do we know who is very lucky? I can think of two: Lan and Mat. However, I agree that in the grand scheme of things Lan is relatively unimportant to Morridin. Mat, however, is being actively hunted by DF assassins. I also am pinging off the word "Broken." When used in regards to animals, "broken" means "to cause to yield." Mat has essentially been broken ever since he married Tuon. He is no longer carefree but now has to think like a married man, something he constantly reminds himself of nowadays. We also know the Towers of Midnight refer to the towers in Seanchan. What if Mat will not live happily ever after with Tuon, but instead is consumed by Seanchan (methaphorically or literally) and is essentially destroyed by the government. Look at how many lives Mat has touched. He even has a few Aes Sedai that like and appreciate him. What kind of effect would his destruction bring to the world around him?

 

Even the luckiest man alive can be slain by the Dark One.

Of course, Mat is already associated with an animal - the fox. Symbolically, I'm not sure if it really works.

[Jyxxer]

For discussion of the Epilogue specifically. So, in line...

 

1. Graendal's in trouble.

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

 

1. I really was so disappointed with Graendal's arc in this book. I thought after the Nattin's Barrow incident we'd for sure FINALLY have a competent bad ass Forsaken, but no, she messed it up. So that means Demandred is the ONLY forsaken that has not blundered.

 

2. No surprises there, glad that part is over and our three heroes have found their balance. (Though I suppose Mat never lost his)

 

3. I doubt he's a serial killer waiting to blossom, just simply young and raised by soldiers. Caemlyn attack is going to be sick. I think news of Caemlyn, White Tower, Black Tower, and Tarwin's Gap will all hit Field of Merrilor right afetr Rand breaks the seals. I think Rand will go to Lan to save a friend, as well with Nyneave and half the AS to redeem themselves for not making it to Malkieri before. Mat and Egwene go back to the White Tower, and Perrin and co go back to Caemlyn.

 

3a. I would love to see Caemlyn be saved first to protect the Dragons, and then use them to help either the Black Tower or White Tower battles. I just had this awesome vision of having a huge circle of channelers open a MASSIVE gateway on the hill they were using to practice with the Dragons. Since the gateway looks like a heat wave from the other side, they could literally open a that gateway so it's pointed at the battle and shoot dragons from the Caemlyn wall into the enemy. Ohhh that would be an epic combination of Power and fireworks.

 

4. Red veils made me think red sails, but I think the old male Aiel channelers is the best argument for where they come from.

 

5. Okay now this through me for a big loop. I have forgotten all about Cyndane and Moghedien until now. The big question is, is this a ploy or real? Rand should be able to 'see' the souls of people to tell if they are evil now, so if one of the Forsaken, much less the one who bored the hole, comes back to the light, it will be very epic. Wondering what her requests are from the Finns.

 

5a. I looked up the dark prophecy from TGH written on the Fal Dara walls. Says something like, "Daughter of the Night, she walks the land to find her true love, who will server her, die and then server her still. I think she's gonna trip up Rand bad.

 

6. Again, I think it will come down to all the battles happening at once, and trying to choose who to save. I think Rand will use his human emotion/zen thinking instead of logically what he needs to succeed, and will go to save Lan. After all, he did help save Rand in Eye of the World. Lan better not die.

[outsider2222]

4) These guys seem so freaking familiar but I can't place my finger on it. Something about the filed teeth just rings a bell deep in the back of my head regarding WoT. My guess is either Sharamen or male Aiel channelers who went to the Blight to die who were turned by 13x13. Leaning towards the latter, but wishing for the former. I can't help but feel like Demandred is involved somehow though.

 

 

You mean the Finns? They have pointy teeth.

 

The epilogue just makes the wait that much more unbearable.

 

if i remember correctly, didn't that Seanchan general that "rescued" Tuon from Matt have a very similar companion, a native Seanchanian ?? So these pointy teeth fellows could be an imported army for DO ? (Demandred in Seanchan ??)

[moratcorlm]

Karede's servant Ajimbura is from the Kaensada Hills tribes. They seem possibly to have some cannibalistic traits (or at least make dishes out of their enemies' skulls) but I'm pretty sure there is nothing said about pointy teeth. Their code of honor and appearance (red hair, blue eyes) are characteristic of another society descended from the Da'shain Aiel, like the Waste Aiel, the Tinkers, and the Amayar.