Discuss The Prophecies

[johthohar]

The "odd" part is clearly referencing "Four of them at once!".

 

No it isn't.

[James71]

The "odd" part is clearly referencing "Four of them at once!".

 

No it isn't.

 

Min's quote: Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though.

 

johthohar, I don't see any other way to read it.

The "odd" part is about four kids at once. Something about the circumstances of four at the same time.

[johthohar]

The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

The syntax here implies that it would be something about the nature of the children. Not the nature of their birth. You fail.

[James71]

The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

The syntax here implies that it would be something about the nature of the children. Not the nature of their birth. You fail.

 

johthohar, we are just discussing a book and sharing opinions about what might happen.

There is no need to be so aggressive or hostile about it.

 

Nothing is definitive about any of our opinions until the next book comes out.

Heck, it might not even be resolved after that. The final book may not even address some of these issues.

So declaring something like, "you fail" just doesn't makes any sense.

 

Dial it down a few notches. It is only a book.

[johthohar]

The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

The syntax here implies that it would be something about the nature of the children. Not the nature of their birth. You fail.

 

johthohar, we are just discussing a book and sharing opinions about what might happen.

There is no need to be so aggressive or hostile about it.

 

Nothing is definitive about any of our opinions until the next book comes out.

Heck, it might not even be resolved after that. The final book may not even address some of these issues.

So declaring something like, "you fail" just doesn't makes any sense.

 

Dial it down a few notches. It is only a book.

 

**shakes head** Once again tone fails to be conveyed through text. I'm just messing with you. Well, at least the "You fail" stuff. I do disagree with what you're saying. But if you've read many of my other posts you would know I'm generally good natured and humorous.

 

Also, if you think that was "aggressive or hostile" you wouldn't like it at all on some of the other forums I hang out on. Lol.

[tollstrm]

Just some thoughts about the Shadow Prophecy

 

...Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things...when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers...And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come...And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion

 

It's been bugging me reading some of these posts. Who most of the people referred to in this actually are seems rather obvious.

 

One-Eyed Fool= Mat; he needs to travel the halls of mourning (the white tower to get the horn), but the main thing - he has one eye...need more?

First Amomng Vermin/Broken Champion= Rand; it's a play on 'First Among Servants,' which LTT was. Also, the "First Among Vermin" it says will lift his hand (no plural) to free the DO. Rand is pretty serious about breaking the seals. He is also the "Broken Champion" because Rand is the champion for the light. That title belongs to no other, never has, and never will in the WoT.

the Fallen Blacksmith= Perrin; I don't know another blacksmith who the Shadow would have an interest in.

Lord of the Evening= Ishy/Moridin; it makes sense that the evil counterpart to Rand (who happens to have the title of Lord of the Morning) would have the oposite title as well.

 

I don't think "Broken Wolf" refers to Perrin though. Why in the next sentence call him by another title? When has Perrin known "Death"? I kind of want to say that since "Death" is capitalized it is a reference to Moridin, but this is a prophecy of the Shadow and it could just be that it's a show of respect/reverence to the event of death. Although, it's highly probable that our three taveren are going to die, so it could very well be that it is Perrin.

 

If it does refer to Moridin, it makes sense for the "Broken Wolf" to be Jain Farstrider. He received compulsion from Ishy before tEotW, hence the "Broken."

 

The most likely candidate though for "Broken Wolf" is probably Lan. I don't remember if I've said this before, but here goes. Lan is charging into an army of trollocs. Demandred is a forsaken-- and because of Egwene's dream we know the forsaken are represented by the towers of midnight-- and we know he is amassing an army. We also know that he is a general. It makes sense that he could be in charge of the army we saw Lan about to fight.

 

Also, when it says "once again, his glorious cloke shall cover the pattern" I think it is refering to the AoL when the DO was able to effect the world, not to a previous turning of the wheel that the DO was victorious in.

[FarShainMael]

"Once again tone fails to be conveyed through text."

 

- - - - - - -

[blazetheearth]

I've also been wondering about the word "pride" as it is used in reference to the Fallen Blacksmith. We have all assumed that the word is being used in the traditional sense but:

 

 

Pride

–noun 1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc. 2. the state or feeling of being proud. 3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem. 4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride. 5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family. 6. the best of a group, class, society, etc.: This bull is the pride of the herd. 7. the most flourishing state or period: in the pride of adulthood. 8. mettle in a horse. 9. Literary . splendor, magnificence, or pomp. 10. a group of lions. 11. sexual desire, esp. in a female animal. 12. ornament or adornment.

 

1,2,3, & 9 - apply to the way it is usually described here.

4,5,6, & 12 - refer to items or people around him

7 - refers to health

8 - Not even going to go for the Bela joke here

10 - does not apply

11 - doubtful

 

It's really 4,5,6 &/or 12 that I was thinking of, because so far Perrin has not lost any of the first group, if any thing he has gained more pride since he accepted his role.

"In that day, ..., the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come" The 'day' that is referred to seems to be the day Rand will break the seals. That will signify the beginning of the 'last days', but what if, instead of humbling Perrin (taking away his traditional pride), instead it is the 'last days' of someone or something that he is proud of? We know that Graendal already considers him the Fallen Blacksmith, but the 'last days ... of [his] pride' haven't started.

 

So, following this line, what is Perrin the most proud of? Personally, I believe that it is being Faile's husband.

 

So here's my shot in the dark. Faile dies (Perrin's pride) a few days after Rand breaks the seals. This act could transform Perrin into the Broken Wolf, and since his wife just died at that point it would fit that part of 'one who Death has known' and 'Midnight Towers' can simply refer to the place in the Blight that Moridin calls home, since we've never had an external view of that building or it could refer to the Forsaken (re: Eggy's Dream). I am almost positive the 'Midnight Towers' do not refer to The Towers of Midnight that are in Seanchan. It's just too easy a parallel. And Perrins destruction could definitely shake the morale of the side of Light.

 

Just another hypothesis. Have fun ripping it up!

 

[Mr Ares]

 

Min Viewing:Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

...You think that's more odd than permanently holding the Source?

The "odd" part is clearly referencing "Four of them at once!".

 

Avi had four of Rand's babies at the same time, but something odd about it.

Yes, Avi had four of Rand's kids at once, and there was something odd, other than having four at once. Like the four of them were born holding the OP. That's realy, really unusual. That has to be the leading possibility. Adopting Min's kids? Not so odd.

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

[FarShainMael]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadya_Suleman

[Randommer]

I've also been wondering about the word "pride" as it is used in reference to the Fallen Blacksmith. We have all assumed that the word is being used in the traditional sense but:

 

 

 

Pride

–noun 1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc. 2. the state or feeling of being proud. 3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem. 4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride. 5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family. 6. the best of a group, class, society, etc.: This bull is the pride of the herd. 7. the most flourishing state or period: in the pride of adulthood. 8. mettle in a horse. 9. Literary . splendor, magnificence, or pomp. 10. a group of lions. 11. sexual desire, esp. in a female animal. 12. ornament or adornment.

 

1,2,3, & 9 - apply to the way it is usually described here.

4,5,6, & 12 - refer to items or people around him

7 - refers to health

8 - Not even going to go for the Bela joke here

10 - does not apply

11 - doubtful

 

It's really 4,5,6 &/or 12 that I was thinking of, because so far Perrin has not lost any of the first group, if any thing he has gained more pride since he accepted his role.

"In that day, ..., the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come" The 'day' that is referred to seems to be the day Rand will break the seals. That will signify the beginning of the 'last days', but what if, instead of humbling Perrin (taking away his traditional pride), instead it is the 'last days' of someone or something that he is proud of? We know that Graendal already considers him the Fallen Blacksmith, but the 'last days ... of [his] pride' haven't started.

 

So, following this line, what is Perrin the most proud of? Personally, I believe that it is being Faile's husband.

 

So here's my shot in the dark. Faile dies (Perrin's pride) a few days after Rand breaks the seals. This act could transform Perrin into the Broken Wolf, and since his wife just died at that point it would fit that part of 'one who Death has known' and 'Midnight Towers' can simply refer to the place in the Blight that Moridin calls home, since we've never had an external view of that building or it could refer to the Forsaken (re: Eggy's Dream). I am almost positive the 'Midnight Towers' do not refer to The Towers of Midnight that are in Seanchan. It's just too easy a parallel. And Perrins destruction could definitely shake the morale of the side of Light.

 

Just another hypothesis. Have fun ripping it up!

 

I totally agree about the Fallen Blacksmith's pride being Faile. Although I think Bashere might be the Broken Wolf (as Faile's death would also be awful for him). But Perrin is a possibility.

 

On a different topic, I notice that most people think the whole 'if you would live, you must die' prophecy means that Rand will die and live again. And I'll admit that that's very possible, but does anyone else think it could also mean 'if you want to live, then you have to die'? Like the way he started thinking in TGS that it was really unfair he'd have to die for everyone, and that was because he was sort of turning to the Shadow. Or like the way the Borderland prophecy said that if he wasn't 'enlightened' by that time, or whatever you call it, then they had to kill him. I mean it just seems strange that it says 'if you would live', not 'to live'.

[James71]

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

[johthohar]

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

 

Why the heck does it make "far more sense"? Oh wait, I forgot. Every Christ-like hero with three lovers splits his offspring evenly among them.

 

Seriously, you act like Jordan has this set of fantasy rules that he has to stay within. Min has to have some kids too because the other girls got to. No. Rand and Min have been getting busy pretty consistently for a while now. My guess is that Min is barren. As to the "something odd". You're the only one with the adoption theory (which, as Ares pointed out, isn't odd at all) while the majority saw Aviendha's vision and went "Ooohhhh... That's what it is."

[Val Mickey]

Min has been taking contraceptives (the heartleaf tea) but she could be barren. Quadruplets are generally sickly babies (since there is only so much space in a womb) and are also rare (1 in 512000000 births) so the combination of healthy quadruplets should be even rarer, right? (I hate probability.) But Rand's ta'veren, right?

 

And if anyone should go through four deliveries at one sitting it should be Elayne. No, it should be Egwene. Hmm, stick Elayne with the deliveries, and Egwene with the raising of the four. That would be justice.

[Random Man]

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

Sorry, but you're reading it wrong. Avi's viewing in Rhuidean of the future should have made it quite clear she's going to have quadruplets. They all seem to have some quite odd channeling abilities, also. As Min viewed, Avi will have four of Rand's children at once and they will all be born healthy.

 

We have no idea how many kids Min is going to have with Rand. She can't view herself.

[Mystraka]

 

Min Viewing:Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

...You think that's more odd than permanently holding the Source?

The "odd" part is clearly referencing "Four of them at once!".

 

Avi had four of Rand's babies at the same time, but something odd about it.

Yes, Avi had four of Rand's kids at once, and there was something odd, other than having four at once. Like the four of them were born holding the OP. That's realy, really unusual. That has to be the leading possibility. Adopting Min's kids? Not so odd.

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

Fertility does not affect your chances of having multiple children, it merely affects your chances at getting pregnant to begin with. Having 2+ children happens when the embryo splits after fertilization, the chances of which can increase based on your genetics (like the fact that you are a twin, or there are other twins in your family). The bolded is my emphasis, but IMO if you are going to belittle someones intelligence like that, you should probably be accurate.

 

That being said I do agree with your assessment on the text, Avi will have 4 children, with them contantly holding the power being the "odd" thing

[Mr Ares]

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

It does not make any more sense to do it that way. Given that RJ's characters are supposed to be human, it is quite reasonable to take biology into account.

 

 

You're the only one with the adoption theory (which, as Ares pointed out, isn't odd at all) while the majority saw Aviendha's vision and went "Ooohhhh... That's what it is."

Before ToM, the adoption theory was put forward. It was at least reasonable then, but now it's like there's an elephant in the room.

 

 

The bolded is my emphasis, but IMO if you are going to belittle someones intelligence like that, you should probably be accurate.

I didn't belittle his intelligence, I commented on his lack of knowledge. There's a difference. I do find some amusement in the fact that I have just had to correct your correction - seems like I'm not the only one who isn't as accurate as he could be.

[Val Mickey]

Surely knowledge is tied to intelligence. Don't high IQ tests test general knowledge?

[Mr Ares]

Knowledge and intelligence might be related, but they are not the same thing. A very intelligent person would still be ignorant of all manner of things (the human brain can only store so much knowledge).

[FarShainMael]

Surely knowledge is tied to intelligence. Don't high IQ tests test general knowledge?

 

Not really, they are mainly about processing patterns. Part of the Mensa test involves vocabulary, but that's as close as it gets.

 

http://www.bergmandata.com/

 

It's true that it takes intelligence to gather, sort, and use knowledge, but that presupposes an environment in which knowledge is available.

[Mulk]

It's true that it takes intelligence to gather, sort, and use knowledge, but that presupposes an environment in which knowledge is available.

 

This. I would imagine there are plenty of truly intelligent people living in third world or worse conditions who have no access to the sort of knowledge your average westerner has, but that doesn't make them less intelligent.

[FarShainMael]

It's true that it takes intelligence to gather, sort, and use knowledge, but that presupposes an environment in which knowledge is available.

 

This. I would imagine there are plenty of truly intelligent people living in third world or worse conditions who have no access to the sort of knowledge your average westerner has, but that doesn't make them less intelligent.

 

And, of course, such people have access to their own stores of knowledge, which we 'civilised types' know nothing about. EG the aboriginal Australians, and native Americans.

 

But we digress.. back on topic, quick, before the mods notice!

 

I see the Wolf King now carries the Hammer.. KoD4

[Val Mickey]

Mensa is for kids.

 

I'm talking about High IQ tests. Sure they say it's culture fair, but they always sneak in some vocabulary. Which subtly tests General Knowledge. Also those high IQ types *not looking at a post above me* are great ones for trivia games.

[RickTCPB]

It's the Borderlands, the five kingdoms, known as the Broken Crown, whose sigil was once the wolf - a creature who is known but forgotten to bear nothing but enmity to those of the Shadow. They know Death from their very births, and have a world-wide reputation for standing against the Blight's incursion, the "consumption" of their lands. The fall of the Borderlands to the Shadow would be more than enough to shake the will of people the world over.

 

I *really* like that theory.

 

But the Borderlands aren't collectively the Broken Crown. The only results Ideal Seek turns up for Broken Crown all relate specifically to the Saldaean Crown (except for one that refers to a chip in the Crown of Swords).

 

I also can't find any reference to any Borderlands sigil, or any wolf related sigil for any of the individual Borderlands nations (I tried a few search terms apart from sigil and still no luck). Where did you get that?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. "

 

Hello - first time posting here so go easy on me....

 

Although I think we will find that one of the more obvious guesses (Lan, Perrin, Ilturade, etc) is probably correct, I really latched on to the idea that the "Broken Wolf" could be more than just a person, but rather a group of people. I mainly want to run with this theory a little more because, as someone else mentioned, whoever the "Broken Wolf" turns out to be it is pretty apparent that their demise will most certainly have a large impact. So if it isn't a single individual who's "destruction" would bring that about then a group of people might do that. So to stir up the theory pot a bit I would like to suggest that the "Broken Wolf" could be the Two Rivers.

 

1.Although the "Broken Wolf" is certainly a far stretch to represent this area, I think that its at least plausible as the region once was a formidable stronghold against the Shadow (Trolloc Wars) until it met its end - "Broken". The area was also "Broken" again in TsR when the area was overrun with Whitecloaks, Trollocs/Fades, and our buddy Slayer - which leads to my next point...

2.Whether it be Manethera (sp?) during the Trolloc wars, or the Two Rivers during the trolloc fiasco in TsR; the area has certainly known death before. Yes, I know - not necessarily D-eath, but death; and certainly at the hands of the DO and his specific wishes

3.I know someone is going to mention the fact that the flag/symbol of Manethera is the Red Eagle and I agree. However, Perrin agreed to give up that particular banner and his 'efforts' to ressurect Manathera as a nation have been put to bed. Since that time, Perrin has taken up the Wolf banner so it is strongly associated to him and there are at least a couple of references to it being associated to the Two Rivers as a people/location even fairly early on in the series (ala Egwene dream if I'm not mistaken). Also, as we saw in the ToM, Elayne has all but promised to legitimize Perrin's lordship over the area as long as he remains a part of her realm so more than likely the area would become publically associated with the Wolf banner, not just among the Two Rivers people themselves.

4.A.If the "Midnight Towers" indeed refer to the Forsaken as in Egwene's dream and popular theory: The Forsaken certainly have a reason to wipe out everyone in the Two Rivers because it would most certainly "bring fear and sorrow" to our main characters, which would drag down the Light side in general, etc.

4.B.Just for the fun of it - if the "Midnight Towers" is a reference to the Seanchan then it might be interesting to see Egwene lead the Aes Sedai to the Two Rivers after the upcoming attack by Tuon's bunch in hopes that not many people would know where it is and make it difficult for the Seanchan to Travel there easily, but instead lead the Two Rivers to be "consumed" and have to flee again

 

Anyway, I just thought it was a different take on the part of the prophecy that people are seeming to struggle with. Enjoy.

[Hopefire]

Rereading the series, getting to Crossroads of Twilight, I finally remembered that Ituralde was nicknamed the Wolf. By the end of the battle of Maradon, he was broken in a way. He knew in his heart of hearts that the Shadow had won, despite his best efforts, that Maradon was lost.

 

In Maradon, I saw what had been done to men who followed me. I saw Light in them, Min. Defying the Dark One no matter the length of his shadow. We will live, that defiance said. We will love and we will hope. And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that. He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirits of men . . . he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit. And so I stood against him.

-Rand al'Thor

 

I still favor the interpretation that the Broken Wolf is Lan or Bashere, and that they'll die while the big meeting is happening, but I just thought that I'd throw out this alternate thought.