Discuss The Prophecies

[Mats Spare Hat]

More Min's Vision than outright Prophesy, but the one she has of Nynaeve kneeling and grieving over someone's corpse... Anyone else think it's not too far fetched that it could end up being Olver, as said corpse?

 

End of TOM he's set up pretty well for a chance to meet his demise. There's all that concern of the kid's welfare, from the ladies, when they're all together in Ebou Dar. Alright the speculated emotional investment is a stretch but, up until the TGS, there wasn't even a hint beyond another Min Vision (ironically) to suggest that Thom and Moiraine had anything to do with each other. So it's not a completely wild supposition to say Nynaeve would be really upset if Olver bit the bullet, despite the lack of screen time.

 

Sooo, maybe Nyn has to choose between helping in Andor or Tarwin's Gap. Pretty sure she's headed north, thereby let's say Olver croaks in the meantime. She makes it to Caemlyn, finds the dead little dude amongst the carnage and destruction, annndd cuueeee the soppy music/vision fulfilled?...I'm ron burgundy?

 

Any takers?

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all.

Prophecies are things that MAY be. They can be circumvened. I agree that the prophecies "Fallen Blacksmith" referred to Perrin. However, since Perrin mastered the wolf dream and mastered his angst and really became who and what he was meant to be, he is no longer the Fallen Blacksmith. He ALMOST was, and would have been, if Slayer had not killed Hopper and so royally pissed Perrin off. The seeds of good do sometimes seem to be found in the acts of evil.

 

And the Broken Wolf could indeed be Hopper, as posited. Slayer killed him; Slayer whom we believe can make Darkhounds. Perhaps Darkhounds are made in a Tower of Midnight type structure. There IS that thing in the blight we dont know about. Maybe, Darkhound Hopper will act in a way that will bring destruction. Certainly PERRIN got to grow into a leader due to Hoppers death/ destruction, and yes, Perrin's battles will bring their share of death and destruction.

 

Its also DARK PROPHECY. So, I am not too sure that their lines saying " his destruction will bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men..." actually mean what they appear to say. Id say the Dark One would be HAPPY to sow fear and sorrow.

[Bizzie]

In reference to the Prophecies of the Shadow:

 

I believe that the First Among Vermin is Egwene, the Broken Champion being Rand. The One Eyed Fool has to be Mat. I'm uncertain about the ones surrounding Perrin - it's fairly obvious he's the Fallen Blacksmith but who is the Broken Wolf? Can we say it's Perrin(Or even Hopper) with any certainty?

[didymos]

In reference to the Prophecies of the Shadow:

 

I believe that the First Among Vermin is Egwene

 

"...and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand..."

 

Sorry, no.

[babuada]

Fallen Blacksmith's pride. This means his group, i.e, army or his wolf pack.

Midnight Towers could be the Seanchan.IMO

[babuada]

It is about the Seanchan profecy of Rand kneeling before Crystal Throne.

I think Crystal Throne is a binding chair.

ACoS

"Of course," Caddar went on, "if you mean some other man—There is a thing called a binding chair.

Binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair

survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it."

 

TPoD

Ch24

The Empress surely

would want al'Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with

al'Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne,

[billegoat]

Something I found today while reading TDR. "He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." With the Rhuidean visions of Aviendha this puts a little more light on this. I believe that Rand will have to give the Aiel a purpose after the last battle- Aviendha being the one to get him to do this with her knew found knowledge- so that they don't end up as they were in the visions. This purpose would of course be giving the Aiel the way of the leaf, as the Aiel have always been the people that the current age needs. Sword of peace would be the act of doing so? Not sure what it literally means but something around the lines of bringing them to the way of the leaf.

 

Also,

"the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."

I believe this to be Jain Farstrider, as we know the shadow- presumably Moridin- was messing with his mind; and he did indeed fall and was consumed by the Eelfinn.

 

 

"lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,"

Rand destroying the seals on the Dark One's prison.

 

rand killed some of his own men while attempting to channel using callandor so i believe that fits the sword of peace prophecy, and when he revealed the origins of the aiel he destroyed many of them through the (way of the) leaf.

 

the dark prophecy is referring only to the three taveren, IMO. mat, the one eyed fool, rand the first among vermin. fallen blacksmith and broken wolf both refer to perrin and there's still every possibility that he is killed by the forsaken (the towers) in the final chapter. these are the three main focal points of all the prophecies of light and shadow, and sticking lan, ituralde, or hopper(?!?!) into a prophecy with the big three makes no sense to me.

 

lifts his hand (note it does not say 'hands') to bring freedom to the DO definitely references rand breaking the seals.

[didymos]

Fallen Blacksmith's pride. This means his group, i.e, army or his wolf pack.

 

Um, no. Why would a term that almost always refers specifically to lions be used? It's "pride" as in "the quality of being proud".

[didymos]

 

I think Crystal Throne is a binding chair.

 

 

It induces awe. It does not make specific behaviors impossible, which is what binding chairs were for, just like Oath rods. I don't know why people jump to this conclusion, since the two descriptions don't really align at all except in that they're both about "chairs".

[algol]

Hi, everyone! I just finished the book and decided to chime in on a couple of theories.

 

1. In Egwayne's dream, she sees first two, then several towers crashing, then another one cracking and falling only to rise higher than the rest. Ishamael's death was 4th death of any Forsaken in the series. The numbers just do not add up: at least 4 towers fell in the beginning, so either the order is not correct or it is not Ishamael/Moridin who will rise above the rest of the Forsaken in the end. I'd guess it will be Lanfear, otherwise why is she brought up right at the end on the book.

 

2. One-Eyed Fool traveling halls of mourning. It implies some journey through the halls. I think it is either through the Eelfinn/Aelfinn realm, or it might be that Matt will go somewhere through the Ways...

[babuada]

Look at this dream from Egwin.

 

ACOS (Ch10)

She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....

 

Now look at this.

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.

 

And the Jendai Profecy.

The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.

 

My speculation is in Fields of Merilor Rand is going to teach them to be truely AS, i.e, servant of all.

[Eht Slat Meit]

My thoughts:

 

This dark prophecy is a description of the final days of the Last Battle. The first paragraph seems self explanatory, so I'll leave my speculations to the latter two.

 

"The One-Eyed Fool" - Seems to be commonly accepted that this is Mat, and I agree. I believe that the 'halls of mourning' are the halls of the White Tower. Moiraine is unlikely to have told any other sisters just where the Horn is, and Mat will have to recover it while the rest of the Tower is off to battle the forces of the Shadow. Given the destruction by the Seanchan and the warping by the Shadow, the hand of the DO on the world, this may prove to be a daunting task and I personally hope it will be found to be hidden in the 13th Repository.

 

Since this prophecy seems time contingent, I'm ruling out ToG since that does NOT happen at the same time as the freeing of the DO, which hasn't taken place yet nor did Mat travel there as the One-Eyed.

 

"The First Among Vermin" - Most of his statements to others in Towers of Midnight have indicated that he intends to break the seals (aka bring freedom to Him), so that tells me this must be Rand.

 

"The Fallen Blacksmith" - I believe that Perrin is fated to die in the last battle. Given the heavy Norse overtones to the books, this tells me that he's likely to die at WoT's Ragnarok. The fall of his "pride" could have other connotations, but as of ToM he's finally got his angsty garbage done with, so I'm not thinking so. I suspect the "pride" is the many armies he has gathered behind him. They will face the armies of the Shadowspawn in the Last Battle. These will be the final days of most of them... and TG itself, of course.

 

"The Broken Wolf" - There's a lot of speculation on Hopper, or Ituralde or other candidates, but I think people are getting it wrong. There's no single person other than the Dragon whose death could bring sorrow and fear to the hearts of men, and shake their will to the foundation... but I don't think it's Rand, either.

 

It's the Borderlands, the five kingdoms, known as the Broken Crown, whose sigil was once the wolf - a creature who is known but forgotten to bear nothing but enmity to those of the Shadow. They know Death from their very births, and have a world-wide reputation for standing against the Blight's incursion, the "consumption" of their lands. The fall of the Borderlands to the Shadow would be more than enough to shake the will of people the world over.

 

"The Towers of Midnight", as suggested Egwene's Dream should be the Forsaken, or less likely the Mountains of Dhoom. Maybe it will (specifically) be Moridin and his three witches (Lan/Mog/Graen) who destroy the Borderland army Rand has sent back, while Demandre's armies consume the rest. Remains to be seen.

 

"The Lord of the Evening"? I don't believe Moridin stands high enough to be considered the Dragon's counterpart; that would be the Dark One himself, come at last from his prison to face the "Broken Champion". That would be the Light, the Dragon, the essence of that which Rand and LTT hold between them.

[Tervvo]

omg i said this already

the broken wolf is jain farstrider

 

That doesn't work. As far as the rest of the world knows, Jain Farstrider has been dead for decades. Nobody but Mat and Thom know it was him who died in Finnland.

 

um that's not how prophecies work.

like when the stone of tear fell, nobody knew the aiel were the people of the dragon

doesn't matter if nobody knows if jain is alive, but he's the broken wolf and he died in the towers of midnight

 

 

 

 

His death doesn't put fear in the hearts of men and shake their will.

[cleantoe]

The "Broken Wolf" I'm pretty sure is Perrin. Like Rand, Perrin had to "reforge" himself, and understand his individual parts. He's a new Perrin now.

[Amish Jim]

Hi All,

 

 

First post. Be nice. I read most of the books when they first came out, then got back into it with the new ones - not re-read any of the older ones, so way off the pace in terms of detail. But still, thought I'd chip in on the prophecy business...

 

I reckon that the 'Broken Wolf' is Ituralde. He's called The Wolf, for starters. Seems to have been fighting more or less non stop for about three books, and was pretty broken by the end of the battle for Maradon. But the clincher for me is that he's been fighting all along to save Arad Domon from the Seanchan (Towers of Midnight). His agreement with Rand was to defend the borderlands in return for Rand keeping the Seanchan out of Arad Domon.

 

What I think will probably happen is that Rand will end up having to give Arad Domon to the Seanchan in return for an alliance/truce. Its just the kind of moral dilemma the books have all over the place; can Rand break his promise to Ituralde for the greater good? Ituralde will reject it, try to fight the Seanchan on his own, and be killed. The shaking the hearts of men stuff is more than covered by the damage this would do to the alliance that Rand is trying to hold together, to keep everyone pointing in the same direction for the armageddon-style uber-battle at the end.

 

So, there you go. Probably miles off, but worth a shot.

[nordlicht]

Fallen Blacksmith's pride. This means his group, i.e, army or his wolf pack.

Midnight Towers could be the Seanchan.IMO

 

If the pride is sth tangible, it could be also his shiny new mah´alleinir. maybe he tries to shatter a seal with it...

but I don´t hope pride is in such a material sense, though.

Oh, and hi.

[Kahlika]

It's the Borderlands, the five kingdoms, known as the Broken Crown, whose sigil was once the wolf - a creature who is known but forgotten to bear nothing but enmity to those of the Shadow. They know Death from their very births, and have a world-wide reputation for standing against the Blight's incursion, the "consumption" of their lands. The fall of the Borderlands to the Shadow would be more than enough to shake the will of people the world over.

 

I *really* like that theory.

 

But the Borderlands aren't collectively the Broken Crown. The only results Ideal Seek turns up for Broken Crown all relate specifically to the Saldaean Crown (except for one that refers to a chip in the Crown of Swords).

 

I also can't find any reference to any Borderlands sigil, or any wolf related sigil for any of the individual Borderlands nations (I tried a few search terms apart from sigil and still no luck). Where did you get that?

[Eht Slat Meit]

It's the Borderlands, the five kingdoms, known as the Broken Crown, whose sigil was once the wolf - a creature who is known but forgotten to bear nothing but enmity to those of the Shadow. They know Death from their very births, and have a world-wide reputation for standing against the Blight's incursion, the "consumption" of their lands. The fall of the Borderlands to the Shadow would be more than enough to shake the will of people the world over.

 

I *really* like that theory.

 

But the Borderlands aren't collectively the Broken Crown. The only results Ideal Seek turns up for Broken Crown all relate specifically to the Saldaean Crown (except for one that refers to a chip in the Crown of Swords).

 

I also can't find any reference to any Borderlands sigil, or any wolf related sigil for any of the individual Borderlands nations (I tried a few search terms apart from sigil and still no luck). Where did you get that?

 

It's the beginning of a theory. I really need to do some work on parts of it, as the broken crown has been associated in general with Saldaea. It's possible that Saldaea could fall as Malkieri did, though I'm not sure that would have the same impact as losing the Borderlands.

 

The link between the wolf and broken crown was based on someone's comment about Davram Bashere carrying a shield with the sigil of the wolf on it, speculating him as a candidate for the "Broken Wolf".

 

Personally, I think the "Broken Wolf" must refer to something bigger, because there's not really anybody short of the Dragon whose death would cause that shaking of the will.

[a5m]

The last days of the Fallen Blacksmith´s pride shall come: That´s not the fallen blacksmith but his pride what we are talking about. The Fallen Blacksmith may be Perrin, but what is his pride? Faile? His nice new hammer? His Manetheren flag?

 

Why wouldn't it be as simple as Perrin admitting he is not a Blacksmith any more. In his pride he always considered himself a Blacksmith. Late in the book he admits he is no longer and decides to lead the army.

[Mr Ares]

Hi All,

 

 

First post. Be nice.

Do I have to?

 

I reckon that the 'Broken Wolf' is Ituralde. He's called The Wolf, for starters. Seems to have been fighting more or less non stop for about three books, and was pretty broken by the end of the battle for Maradon. But the clincher for me is that he's been fighting all along to save Arad Domon from the Seanchan (Towers of Midnight). His agreement with Rand was to defend the borderlands in return for Rand keeping the Seanchan out of Arad Domon.

 

What I think will probably happen is that Rand will end up having to give Arad Domon to the Seanchan in return for an alliance/truce. Its just the kind of moral dilemma the books have all over the place; can Rand break his promise to Ituralde for the greater good? Ituralde will reject it, try to fight the Seanchan on his own, and be killed. The shaking the hearts of men stuff is more than covered by the damage this would do to the alliance that Rand is trying to hold together, to keep everyone pointing in the same direction for the armageddon-style uber-battle at the end.

 

So, there you go. Probably miles off, but worth a shot.

Interesting theory. The problem I have with it is that in TGS, Rand abandoned Arad Doman to the Seanchan as he felt he couldn't sort it out, and the people in Seanchan hekd lands were happier and better ruled than in his own. Then in ToM he does a turnaround and goes back to help AD. So I think in narrative terms it would be, not unworkable, but odd, to see Rand say he'll help, then decide he won't and that he'll leave it for the Seanchan, then decide he will, then leave it to the Seanchan again. I think it's a bit too much flip-flopping.

[nordlicht]

It seems that everyone is theorizing over the pride, but I´m still not over the "fallen" part...

Where does this prophecy come from? That he´s fallen because a blacksmith who fights in the Aiel culture can be referred to as fallen is a very nice and beautiful explanation, but, as far as I know, neither "the shadow" (whose prophecy it´s supposed to be), nor Ishidin nor Graendal are themselves exactly Aiel, so I´m not too sure, that they would read fallen in that sense.

 

Now, Graendal/the Darkside has already tried to kill Perrin to no avail. If I was BAD, right after that, or, in fact, even before, it would seem like a good plan to me to first kill off Faile. This might provide the needed "distraction" his taveren effect. Or, surely the DO has watched Star Wars and admired Darth Sidious for his cunning with turning Anakin, one could tell Perrin, one was able to revive his wife, if some conditions were met by him...don´t want to find out how Perrin would react, after having gone on about he´d been ready to do ANYTHING for Faile blabla...

And, well, if it didn´t work, at least one would have killed one more person and spread more chaos, not too bad, or, better, indeed bad :)

I mean, Semiraghe tried it with Min, so the concept is there, and chances with Perrin should be better than with his sedainess himself

 

I´m digressing, but "fallen", rather than referring to a concept of just one particular culture, for anyone reading the prophecy would mean turned from one side to the other, from light to dark or the other way. Since Perrin always was a lightside person, fallen would mean fallen from light to darkness.

Of course, the "fallen blacksmith" strongly suggests the aiel connotation, I just find it logically challenging. But maybe Moridin got the prophecy from Demandred´s blight-aiel-army, might they be the pointedteethy things or not, or made it up all by himself throwing in some aielness so he wouldn´t be suspected or whatever... :D

shall we collect money and pay some superhacker to infiltrate Mr.Sanderson´s pc ? ;)

[Duskfire]

Well Moridin couldnt have made it up, because the prophecy was at least correct in saying that Mat would lose an eye; previously no other characters would have been able to work that out.

[babuada]

Regarding prophecy. I think the cycle is broken by Rand in VOG. From now on, he would try to correct any mistakes happened in previous cycle (that those prophecies refer to). Although it may be possible he does not remember exactly what would happen.

[rambling]

The Dark Prophecy has so many possible outcomes that I've been amusing myself by trying to come up with alternative explanations in bored moments.

Here's another one, I'm not all that convinced by it myself yet, but it is possible so I thought I'd share.

 

"...the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers..."

 

Let us assume the Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

Perrin has made himself a new hammer and has named it after Hopper.

You could argue that Hopper is a broken wolf (no capitals).

Now, suppose that whilst saving Rand for the second time (to fulfill the other prophecy) Perrin has to fight Moridin, or Death, with his hammer. Heck, maybe it even breaks during the fight.

We would now have a Wolf, which is Broken (twice over for emphasis), who has known Death.

If you replace 'Broken Wolf' with 'hammer' you get 'Yea, and the hammer...shall fall and be consumed...', which has so many possibilities that it would take an essay to do them justice.

So I'll stop there.

[ChrisAndre]

The Prophesies of the Shadow were written by the Dark One, the Father of Lies. He writes prophesies in order to trick Moridin and his Chosen into believing that they can actually beat the will of the Pattern. I believe this particular prophecy is a summary of what the Dark One sought and failed to accomplish in The Towers of Midnight. The first stanza sets the scene: the seals are weak, the lands are slowly turning into blight, everyone is looking north to and preparing for the Dark One. The second stanza describes the three ta'varen: Mat traveled the halls of mourning (after reading of the wailing faces that escaped the blood-steam of the snakes and foxes when they died, sounds like an apt description to me), Rand is about to break the seals but hasn't yet, hence "lifts his hand," and the last days of Perrin's pride shall come. This means it has not happened yet, and pride, meaning "pack," could mean that the wolves will not be connected to man in the coming age and these are their "last days" of doing so. That's when the lies begin.

 

It is clear that he is lying from reading the final stanza in which the Dark One describes his return. There aren't many ways to interpret "And then shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He Shall take our eyes for our souls shall bow before him...and He shall take our lips for only Him will we praise." It basically means the Dark One is going to get out and make everyone succumb to his will, and we all know that isn't going to happen. So I believe that the Dark One reveals part of his plan, his failure, and the fact that his prophesies contain lies when he describes Ituralde as the Broken wolf. Unlike Lan, who only moves like a wolf, a way I remember other warders being described such as Gawyn, Rodel Ituralde is known simply as "the Wolf." It was the Dark ones goal to brake Ituralde at Maradon. Here's the line in question:

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

Of all the nations, Rand's greatest failure has been in Arad Doman. He left everyone to starve earlier, he believes Graendal killed King Almadar, and he promised Ituralde he would save Arad Doman if Ituralde helped defend Saldaea. In The Gathering Storm Moridin's goal was to sacrifice Semirhage in order to force Rand to use the True Power and save Min. This laid the seed of darkness which Moridin tries to nurture in Towers of Midnight. By ordering the chosen to "injure him" and "to bring him anguish," Moridin hopes that Rand will be so overcome with guilt that he does not notice as he becomes a twisted object of the Shadow. The Dark One seeks to do this at Marradon, and fortunately Rand realizes it in time. After saving the city and turning back the trollocs, Rand describes the Dark One's true intentions and the true nature of the battle:

 

Rand: "In Maradon, I saw what had been done to men who followed me. I saw light in them, Min. Defying the Dark One no matter the length of his shadow. We will live, that defiance said. We will love and we will hope. And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that. He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men...he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit." The Dark One thought if he could break the wolf he could shake Rand's will. We win again Shai'tan.