The Nature of Tel'aran'rhiod

[Sharaman]

No, we don't know how Carlinya died.

I don't think RJ wrote in random irrelevant visions, especially for Min.

It's not only Brandon - there's a team checking for continuity of detail.

Hell, even the encyclopedia entry has that vision.

 

This is Min's viewing of Carlinya

 

"a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know it's meaning."

 

Everybody interpreted it to mean that she would end up da'mane do to the Seanchan connection to the Ravens, however that's never explained by Min. Ravens are also commonly associated with death as well as with the Dark One as his eyes and ears in the Wheel of Time. It's not an error by Brandon or RJ, but by the fans in assuming she'd live.

Min's vision may have pertained to death - that's fine. But it would be something specific and we don't see that or hear about it.

See her vision of Sheriam where Min didn't have a clue - it was an exact picture of Sheriam's moment of truth.

One would expect something more specific than killed by the Shadow for Carlinya.

 

Why would you expect more? Not everything needs to be wrapped up nice and neat or explained in detail.

 

RJ made a point that Min's visions don't fail -- Elayne has managed to get a lot of people killed off as a result, there's more than a hint that Moiraine based some of her actions on them, Cadsuane, the Aiel WOs, Rand, etc., have all depended on Min's visions. Entire plotlines have revolved around her viewings and so does speculation about future events.

Hence, I'd expect more.

Especially since in the narrative arc, it could have been any random AS that killed in the attack.

[FarShainMael]

Would fit pretty well with "Darkness took him", no?

It's "death took him."

 

Did I miss it, or was there no mention whatever of the Unseen Eyes?

Ha! It's not Luckers's fault. Peter confused us with his response, and so likelier options were discounted.

It's ok, I'm not getting at Luckers, quite the opposite in fact. First off, I'm not 100% convinced that Mat's ashandarei was the BUT, though I'm open to persuasion. Mainly I'm wondering if the UE have indeed disappeared from T'A'R. ISTR that a number of people have suggested that someone - Slayer, or Moggy, perhaps - has been killing off the HotH. I've had one high-speed readthrough and I'm currently going through again more slowly, so if the UE were mentioned I may have missed it. Has anyone noticed them?

 

(Was it certain that the BUT would be revealed in ToM btw? Or was that left open?)

[Fryn]

Biggest thing I got out of ToM about TAR was that it really is the realm of the wolves and the AS and the rest are just using it like a playground. Loved how Perrin stopped balefire with his hand =p. And my favorite Perrin quote "I'm sorry Egwene, I will speak with you later. Be careful in this place. You probably already know that you need to be, but still. It's more dangerous than you know."

 

The real difference with the characters. Perrin knows he is still but a child in the wolf dream, and Egwene keeps thinking she knows more than she does. The fact that she beat Messana probably won't help with that either ><. Just goes to show just how arrogant Egwene has become.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Would fit pretty well with "Darkness took him", no?

It's "death took him."

 

Did I miss it, or was there no mention whatever of the Unseen Eyes?

Ha! It's not Luckers's fault. Peter confused us with his response, and so likelier options were discounted.

It's ok, I'm not getting at Luckers, quite the opposite in fact. First off, I'm not 100% convinced that Mat's ashandarei was the BUT, though I'm open to persuasion. Mainly I'm wondering if the UE have indeed disappeared from T'A'R. ISTR that a number of people have suggested that someone - Slayer, or Moggy, perhaps - has been killing off the HotH. I've had one high-speed readthrough and I'm currently going through again more slowly, so if the UE were mentioned I may have missed it. Has anyone noticed them?

 

(Was it certain that the BUT would be revealed in ToM btw? Or was that left open?)

 

I think we all get that T'A'R s Tel'aran'rhiod and ToM is Towers of Midnight, I'm guessing that ISTR means "I Seem To Remember", and HotH means Heroes of the Horn, but what in the name of Bayle Domon's striped pajamas is UE?

[AutomatedTeller]

Unseen Eyes, i assume.

[FarShainMael]

Hang on til I stop laughing at BD's striped PJs..

 

Yes, UE = Unseen Eyes.

[Auld Manriva]

Why would you expect more? Not everything needs to be wrapped up nice and neat or explained in detail.

 

RJ made a point that Min's visions don't fail -- Elayne has managed to get a lot of people killed off as a result, there's more than a hint that Moiraine based some of her actions on them, Cadsuane, the Aiel WOs, Rand, etc., have all depended on Min's visions. Entire plotlines have revolved around her viewings and so does speculation about future events.

Hence, I'd expect more.

Especially since in the narrative arc, it could have been any random AS that killed in the attack.

 

The vision's that Min "knows what they mean" (understands) ... don't fail. Others are more or less merely images, which I take to mean The Pattern has not "decided" yet or there are circumstances yet to come that may effect the "viewing" in some manner.

 

Personally, I don't think we as readers are or were ever meant to know precisely what can happen in TAR. I'm sure RJ had some "guidelines" established for himself, but I also think he left it a bit vague for his own purposes. Some of you seem to want Black and White... you're not going to get it.

[Sharaman]

Lots of stuff could indeed happen in TAR.

But this would be the first time with a Min vision that has been explicitly mentioned and either fulfilled or not.

We have no description of Carlinya's death - I'm assuming the Raven didn't pertain to something earlier in her life.

[Owayn The Traveller]

It could of been a jackdaw or even a crow Min saw, hence she misinterpreted the vision. That's understandable as all three of them birds look similiar.

[Sharaman]

Whatever, every time a Min viewing arc has been fulfilled, the author(s) have made a point of letting the reader know she's infallible.

It doesn't matter if she herself can't make sense of it.

This is the first time we don't know if/how it has been fulfilled.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Doesn;t this just mean that the Dark One is just leaning on the pattern more and more as he gets stronger and it's affecting the pattern. Maybe this could explain Min's viewing apparently not coming to fruition.

[sean_powell08]

It's ok, I'm not getting at Luckers, quite the opposite in fact. First off, I'm not 100% convinced that Mat's ashandarei was the BUT, though I'm open to persuasion. Mainly I'm wondering if the UE have indeed disappeared from T'A'R. ISTR that a number of people have suggested that someone - Slayer, or Moggy, perhaps - has been killing off the HotH. I've had one high-speed readthrough and I'm currently going through again more slowly, so if the UE were mentioned I may have missed it. Has anyone noticed them?

 

(Was it certain that the BUT would be revealed in ToM btw? Or was that left open?)

 

I havent been a dragonmount reader long, but I tried reading as much as I could about the BUT before this book. I thought someone said it was supposed to be important to winning the battle. I didnt read any mention of the eyes in TAR and I really hope they heroes arent dying. How bad would it suck if Mat blows the horn and no one shows up. I was starting to wonder if it had to do with how people can manipulate TAR as the BUT. Rand breaks the seals, goes to TAR in the flesh and imagines the bore as patched? Super long shot, but eh. I wasnt satisfied with the BUT being Mats ashandarei, but the books arent necessarily written to satisfy me either.

[Terez]

It was always supposed to 'save the day' in TOM. And Brandon confirmed it was the ashandarei.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I was starting to wonder if it had to do with how people can manipulate TAR as the BUT. Rand breaks the seals, goes to TAR in the flesh and imagines the bore as patched?

 

Tel'aran'rhiod does not extend everywhere. Since the Bore was drilled it has not extended to Shayol Ghul. I believe it doesn't extend into the Blight at all.

[FarShainMael]

It was always supposed to 'save the day' in TOM. And Brandon confirmed it was the ashandarei.

So I see, in the BUT thread. Ah well, can't win 'em all..

[Sharaman]

I was starting to wonder if it had to do with how people can manipulate TAR as the BUT. Rand breaks the seals, goes to TAR in the flesh and imagines the bore as patched?

 

Tel'aran'rhiod does not extend everywhere. Since the Bore was drilled it has not extended to Shayol Ghul. I believe it doesn't extend into the Blight at all.

There's no TAR in the Blight, steddings, or Finnland

[MagnusDahlerNorling]

Just a question, but why is it that Perrin tried to make himself stronger against slayer, instead of imagining that anyone his hammer hits dies. I mean think about it, beliefs in TAR come to life, all he has to do is believe his hammer is an automatic one-hit-ko and it will be exactly that. Slayer would have died without ever worrying about the blow.

 

If that worked, he could just imagine Slayer dead instead. Much simpler. So apparently there are certain guidelines to what you can make happen.

[Lironah]

Just a question, but why is it that Perrin tried to make himself stronger against slayer, instead of imagining that anyone his hammer hits dies. I mean think about it, beliefs in TAR come to life, all he has to do is believe his hammer is an automatic one-hit-ko and it will be exactly that. Slayer would have died without ever worrying about the blow.

 

If that worked, he could just imagine Slayer dead instead. Much simpler. So apparently there are certain guidelines to what you can make happen.

 

The problem with imagining somebody dead, or even imagining that your weapon can kill them, is the same problem the Forsaken had who tried to make Rand simply not exist; the victim of the image obviously sees him or herself as alive, and can feel the image and resist it. It then becomes a battle of wills.

 

The better solution would be to imagine a razor-thin blade slicing through the opponent. No weaves or anything to give warning, just *slice*, gone. And the reason nobody has used these methods yet is because they don't have much experience with imagining things like this - not being readers of much fiction, you know. If they thought about it, then yeah, they'd probably try it.

 

Another thing. The DSpike. Do people feel the method of dome penetration is new/unique to wolves?

Or else, could LTT walk through., Hazily, I'm wondering if Rand tries to raid the BT in TAR and lands up in trouble from which Perrin must rescue him.

 

Slayer himself can freely enter and exit the Dreamspike's area of influence, as we see him do when chasing Perrin. It stands to reason that the Dreamspike must be guarded within Tel'aran'rhiod in order to remain effective; I think if somebody were to go to the one in the Black Tower, they'd find plenty of nasty surprises waiting for them - possibly Slayer himself, most likely some of the Black Ajah (female dreadlords) who have been trained most extensively there. Since Moridin's probably collected all the survivors of Mesaana's debacle.

[Haran]

what? so when Mat blows the horn of valere Hopper wont lead the heroes of legend?

I can't be the only one who had this secret hope?

[WhiteJoker]

Slayer himself can freely enter and exit the Dreamspike's area of influence, as we see him do when chasing Perrin. It stands to reason that the Dreamspike must be guarded within Tel'aran'rhiod in order to remain effective; I think if somebody were to go to the one in the Black Tower, they'd find plenty of nasty surprises waiting for them - possibly Slayer himself, most likely some of the Black Ajah (female dreadlords) who have been trained most extensively there. Since Moridin's probably collected all the survivors of Mesaana's debacle.

We don't know that. Perrin theorizes that Slayer's teleporting in front of Perrin because he knows that Perrin can only teleport at set distances due to the influence of the dreamspike, and then laying in wait in areas where Perrin has to go. Since Perrin's trying to move as fast as possible, it's fairly easy to predict (especially for a hunter of Slayer's caliber) where Perrin will go and then set up ambushes for him. In other words, Slayer isn't teleporting in and out of the area protected by the dreamspike, he's instead teleporting to an area where it eventually will be, waiting for Perrin to teleport in on top of him, and then attacking. When Perrin flees, that leaves Slayer outside of the dome, which then allows him to repeat the tactic.

 

That said, it is likely that the dreamspike is protected because Perrin manages to break through the dome the first time by simply rushing and letting momentum carry him. While it drains him immensely, he still manages to get through. On top of this, it also sounds like, from the descriptions, that making it through the dome is the same trick used to dispel nightmares, so it is likely that others can get into the dome.

[MatsLuck]

I had forgotten about the viewing of Carlinya, and now I am wondering if that wasn't something that was missed by Brandon and Co. The viewing is more specific than just Seanchan. Raven tatoos, if I remember correctly, are only specifically mentioned as being on Deathwatch Guards and Seekers. If Carlinya had any contact with either of those groups, it must have happened off camera.

 

I love all the new found uses of TAR, Bair making herself part of the wallpaper especially comes to mind. It does kind of beg the question of why did it take them so long, but yea well. TAR seems to be a bit of a paradox...a dream world, but a real one too. There are rules, but they don't all seem set in stone. You can imagine things, and they happen, but within limits. Perrin could imagine Slayer dead, and it would happen except for Slayer's counter-imagining. But could Perrin try to kill Slayer by imagining all of Randland not existing? Well he could try, but it wouldn't work. Also, in Verin's initial explanation of TAR to Egwene she says something like TAR is all around or perhaps between all possible worlds. If that is so then why are certain places not accessible in TAR. I think the rules of TAR are somewhat scientific, but also contain intangibles which we will never be able to explain that way, or we don't have enough information to do so.

[Byzantine279]

I suspect that the time spent in TAR is mostly irrelevant to how good you will be at fighting there, once you are familiar with it. Honestly I suspect many of us would have been able to defeat Slayer with less training than Perrin had, simply because we have been reading fiction, watching cartoon, movies, seeing incredible weapons, etc all of our lives. If, in TAR, the greatest weapon is ones imagination, then I would be very, very afraid if any major fiction writer (including movies, tv, etc) was let loose in there. Imagine the horrors that Stephen King could unleash...

 

But I think Perrin has a very limited imagination, as does Slayer. In fact I suspect the reason Slayer is so good at TAR has to do with having two souls, he has two people's wills to fight with while everyone else only has one. I mean, Slayer could be beaten easily, just imagine an arrow going full speed being right in front of his heart. He would never have time to react.

 

Heck, you could do that to anyone, and according to the rules we know of TAR that would be easy to create. And a bullet would be even more so, because it is even smaller (and size does seem to be somewhat important).

[dwn]

I had forgotten about the viewing of Carlinya, and now I am wondering if that wasn't something that was missed by Brandon and Co. The viewing is more specific than just Seanchan. Raven tatoos, if I remember correctly, are only specifically mentioned as being on Deathwatch Guards and Seekers. If Carlinya had any contact with either of those groups, it must have happened off camera.

 

BS has stated that Carlinya's death was not a mistake. The theory that Min's vision had something to do with the Seanchan was apparently wrong.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

I had forgotten about the viewing of Carlinya, and now I am wondering if that wasn't something that was missed by Brandon and Co. The viewing is more specific than just Seanchan. Raven tatoos, if I remember correctly, are only specifically mentioned as being on Deathwatch Guards and Seekers. If Carlinya had any contact with either of those groups, it must have happened off camera.

 

BS has stated that Carlinya's death was not a mistake. The theory that Min's vision had something to do with the Seanchan was apparently wrong.

 

-- dwn

AFAIK, he also RAFO-ed the death so we may just have it coming up again.

TAR is almost guaranteed to play a big role in AMoL - the BT, the Cyndane-LTT thing, maybe an explanation for Nakomi, Slayer, etc., are still live angles where TAR could pop up again.

[Loophole]

anyone else think it is impossible to channel in the dream?

 

I mean think about it, we have heard you can only channel spirit while you sleep. I think those that are channeling in the dream are actualy just imagining ite, they just believe they are doing it very strongly, so the dream follows suit.