Nakomi

[WhiskyJack]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

[WhiskyJack]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

 

Couladin didn't believe he was an Aiel. It was Wise One's assertion that he indeed was an Aiel convinced everyone, to an extent. Wise Ones knew his parents or so they claimed. And then we find out that he was only half Aiel. Afterall Lan was as tall as Rand with blue eyes and various other Aiel "characteristics".

[Sharaman]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

 

Couladin didn't believe he was an Aiel. It was Wise One's assertion that he indeed was an Aiel convinced everyone, to an extent. Wise Ones knew his parents or so they claimed. And then we find out that he was only half Aiel. Afterall Lan was as tall as Rand with blue eyes and various other Aiel "characteristics".

Rand looks like his mother.

[Terez]

There is another problem with Verin.

Nakomi appeared to Aviendha and talked with her about the future of the Aiel and the importance of changing, just before Aviendha went to the columns where she saw the future of the Aiel and the dire consequences of not changing ways. The 2 things are clearly related.

I don't believe they are clearly related at all. The fact that the Aiel stayed in the wetlands at first might have been a problem, actually, in the future that Aviendha saw. But even if it was a problem, it was far from the only problem. The main problem that was evident in that glimpse of the future was that the Aiel tried to hold on to being warriors in an age of peace. It was their traditional way to earn honor. The clear message is that the Aiel need to readopt the Way of the Leaf. Which, apparently, has very little to do with the things Nakomi said.

 

The conversation did not even have anything to do with Aviendha touching the columns. Her frustration stemmed from the fact that she didn't really learn anything in the first trip through, and her Talent with ter'angreal is what led her to believe that she could learn something more by touching the column.

 

I believe that the ter'angreal has probably always had that function. Aviendha is probably the first Aiel to have returned to the columns looking for more. Even those who survived Rhuidean found it to be an unpleasant experience, and it seems unlikely they would have tried to go back for more. Those who built the ter'angreal might have known this, and that the day would come when the first trip through would not be enough for someone.

 

In fact, this might be part of the meaning of 'truth long hidden in the ancient dream'.

 

Not to mention that the Aiel Dreamwalkers told Egwene it was evil to drag someone into T'A'R. If this is TAR, then it's a Forsaken. Period. I don' think it's TAR

Direct quote to PULL a sleeping person into Tel'aran'rhiod??? One forsaken has claimed and seems to seemingly have proven she can ENTER, even an warded dream, while another dreamwalker can explicitly ENTER another's dream unknown to the dreamer.... but to pull a person into Tel'aran'rhiod and not OUT of....

where is this stated?

I quoted it in my Nakomi theory. They also can't enter another person's dreams unless the person is a Dreamer and expecting them. Only Dreamers can control their dreams. If they tried to enter anyone else's dream, they'd be sucked in. Egwene never tries to enter Elayne's and Nynaeve's dreams. She just touches the border of the dream and shouts inside at them.

 

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

The ter'angreal only works for those with Aiel blood - presumably a certain percentage is required:

 

Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview

 

Q: Rhuarc indicates that an Aiel in Rhuidean sees the past through the eyes of one of his ancestors. Is this true for the women as well? What would a non-Aiel see, if anything?

RJ: Yes, a woman would also see through the eyes of her ancestors, at least in the “forest of crystal spires” ter’angreal, and she, too, would live the history of the Aiel, in effect. Someone who wasn’t Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art. Just for a reminder, women who are chosen out to be Wise Ones have to go to Rhuidean twice, the second time for the spires and the first for another ter’angreal, one that makes her see all of the possible paths her life could take all the way to their conclusion. She can’t possibly remember all of them, of course, but some things she will remember and know that it would be very bad for her to make that particular choice when it comes, or alternatively, very good. This is the ter’angreal that Moiraine went through.

[knutz]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

 

I bet they work for anyone. "It is death to enter Rhuideen to any who is not Aiel" is not to do with the terangreal, it's to do with the fact that the Aiel will kill you for it. Except for Jain Charin - he made it out, but I believe he was insane at the time.

[Sharaman]

Direct quote to PULL a sleeping person into Tel'aran'rhiod??? One forsaken has claimed and seems to seemingly have proven she can ENTER, even an warded dream, while another dreamwalker can explicitly ENTER another's dream unknown to the dreamer.... but to pull a person into Tel'aran'rhiod and not OUT of....

where is this stated?

I quoted it in my Nakomi theory. They also can't enter another person's dreams unless the person is a Dreamer and expecting them. Only Dreamers can control their dreams. If they tried to enter anyone else's dream, they'd be sucked in. Egwene never tries to enter Elayne's and Nynaeve's dreams. She just touches the border of the dream and shouts inside at them.

 

Perrin's experiences show it can be done though it's high-risk.

Elan's done it to the Ta'veren as well and we have references that suggest Be'lal did it to Alviarin.

[nogoodatnames]

Don't have my copy with me at the moment, however:

 

1. Nakomi needs to be someone with a good understanding of the Aiel. Or enough knowledge to talk to an Aiel about it. So that removes most of the "wetlands".

 

2. Has an understanding of what the Aiel were in the AoL, and what they have become in the present age. That includes the orgianl offence that they are being punshied for. I'd discount most of the forsaken, they were suprised at what the Aiel in this age had become. And frankly I don't see them caring a whole lot about Avi and her journey.

 

3. Has the abillity to magic up stuff without Avi noticing any use of the power. So it's ethier in TaR, a portal stone world, or a man. I am not sure about TaR and portal worlds, so I can't discount that, though they just don't sit right with me.

 

4. Also needs to be someone that knows where Avi is at the moment. So someone with knowledge of Avi's trip, or the abillity to track her, or was there waiting.

 

5. Someone that cares enough about the future of the Aiel to start the process of change. Also someone that is not bound in the present ages view of Aiel.

 

 

I feel that unless it's something out of the blue. Like a tinker, or Verin (I doubt she knows enough about Aiel, their past, or ToH). Or some time travel hokkum.

 

It could be something to do with TaR, portal stones, but I don't know how that would workout. On other counts I don't see one of the Wise ones doing it secretly, or being able to look past what they are enough, so I discount dreamwalkers. Egwene, or random AS doesn't know enough about Aiel to hold a converstaion about Toh.

 

 

That means I am looking at Jenn Aiel, which is quite likely. They know enough about Aiel, an they are not as bound in the Aiel warrior code as present wise ones.

 

Or Rand, now I don't know all the timeline wierdness, an who was where, doing what to who, therefore it may not even be possible. However he would have knowledge of the original Aiel, and the present day Aiel. He would understand what the last battle meant to the Aiel, and what the three fold land was to them.

 

Avi wouldn't be able to see him weave for extra food and coals. He would also know where she was in the world through the bond <could he mask it enough? Not sure myself, but maybe>. Also he would need to do it in disguse, mainly to stop Avi from jumping him, and because she may not take it seriously enough from him.

 

 

Lastly when Rand gets back to Min after veins of gold. He says something about having to, or had to help a friend. <Can't remeber which, need to have a look when I get my copy back>. Now my initial thoughts were Rodel, however would Rand describe him as a friend? I'd say no. It could be Lan, however he doesn't seem in much of a rush to helpout, and in Lan's pov he never appeared. Still possible though.

 

Maybe the friend he was helping was Avi, I doubt he would tell the lover he was with, he was off to help his other lover.

 

tldr: I think it's Rand. Though I'm probably wrong.

[f3llyn]

I don't think it's Rand, that seems a bit of a stretch to me. I think Nakomi is most likeli a Jenn Aiel, or just simply a ghost or spirit manifestation of Aviendha's in her tiredness.

 

I also don't think it's Verin. We simply have no reason to think it is. More over she doesn't even really know Aviendha and wouldn't know where to look for her unless she has some sort of prophetic powers we don't know about. I can't think of any scene in any of the books where Verin and Aviendha have been in the same place at the same time or even met face to face. Verin simply has no reason to do that, imo. So again, unless Verin has some spiffy keen prophetic powers we don't know about she had no way to know where Aviendha was or what she was going to be doing.

 

So my guesses are a Jenn Aiel, they've just disappeared, we don't know for a fact that they died out. Or a spirit guide of some sort to give Aviendha's thoughts a direction.

[BladeDancer]

I think it is a message from a Jenn Aiel or one of Aes Sedai who was with them in Rhuidean. As we know from Aviendha's POV, there is a ter'angreal in Rhuidean, that allows people to experience the past and the future through the eyes of their direct ancestors or descendents. Who settled in Rhuidean? The Jenn Aiel. This was shown in TSR, CH 25. Dermon, Mordaine and Nerisse were the 3 who spoke for the Jenn Aiel. They also had some Aes Sedai with them - Now we can assume that these Aes Sedai knew how to use the ter'angreal as Aes Sedai from the AOL actually knew what the ter'angreal did.

 

Importantly we know for a fact that the Jenn Aiel have a stake in the future of the Aiel. Not only is it understandable that they would not want their race (Aiel) to become extinct but they show that

a) they have used the ter'angreal to predict the future of things.

b) they take steps or stage an intervention to change the future to a more desirable outcome.

 

In the TSR it is shown that the Jenn Aiel could tell that the Aiel were needed for the Last Battle. The entire Prophecy of the future leader of He Who Comes With The Dawn etc. The whole policy of using the ter'angreal to select Clan Chiefs was done so that only the worthy were chiefs and that the truth of their origins was retained and so that the Cara'carn could be recognised. The Jenn Aiel specifically set up the Aiel tradition of using the ter'angreal because it was forseen to be a disaster for the Aiel (and indeed the Dragon Reborn) if their origin was forgotten. All this was done specifically because the future was seen. It was done in order to guide the future path of the Aiel and prevent them from dying out in 3 generations.

 

OK it is possible that one of the Aes Sedai could predict the future in a Foretelling. But this does not suddenly explain how all the various Wise Ones at the time are dreaming about the same future and thus telling their Chiefs that they must go to Rhuidean. It seems highly likely to me that either the Aes Sedai in Rhuidean or some of the Jenn Aiel have seen the future using the ter'angreal in Rhuidean and seen what steps they must do to set the Aiel up for the Last Battle. Now perhaps the ter'angreal in Rhuidean is also able to influence someone in a dream, maybe in a vision of some sort. This would explain why all the Wise Ones dreamed the same dream at the same time, and sent their chieftains to Rhuidean. The Wise Ones saw a vision/dream of the future and saw that they had to change this future destruction for the clan.

 

Now if the Jenn Aiel could see the future of the Aiel up to the Last Battle using the ter'angreal, then they could presumably also see the future of the Aiel beyond that point. So they could see that the path of the Aiel needed guidance or an intervention at that point to avoid a bleak extinction. So the Jenn Aiel would be able to determine the most likely way to change that future, which would be to appear to Aviendha in a dream/vision that would put her on a path where she would use the ter'angreal to see the future. She would then be able to perhaps change the future. I think the meeting with Nakomi had dream-like qualities that showed that Aviendha was having her perceptions being manipulated, her favourite food being cooked in an unrealistic time to an unrealistic quality. I think the meeting with Nakomi was some sort of a manifestation from the Jenn Aiel from the past in order to put Aviendha on a course of action that would avoid the extinction of the Aiel. It is a bit of a stretch but it seems somehow fitting.

 

The Jenn Aiel have associations with Rhuidean which is where Aviendha is close to and en route to. They care about what ultimately happens to the Aiel. They have a history of staging an intervention that changes the course of the Aiel people to avoid a future extinction that they have seen using some power of foresight.

 

 

Verin or Moghedian? Possibly. But I cannot see their motivations. Why would they care about what the Aiel do after the Last Battle? How would they even know about the bleak future of the Aiel? Verrin's priority is to help win the Last Battle for Rand. Any Forsaken just wants to win the Last Battle for the DO and themselves. The Forsaken have shown nothing but contempt for these so-called Aiel and would like them all dead as they oppose the DO. If one of them met Aviendha they would likely kill her or try to capture her. I doubt they would make her a nice meal in the middle of the Waste.

 

The Jenn Aiel makes sense to me.

[anthonypero]

Direct quote to PULL a sleeping person into Tel'aran'rhiod??? One forsaken has claimed and seems to seemingly have proven she can ENTER, even an warded dream, while another dreamwalker can explicitly ENTER another's dream unknown to the dreamer.... but to pull a person into Tel'aran'rhiod and not OUT of....

where is this stated?

I quoted it in my Nakomi theory. They also can't enter another person's dreams unless the person is a Dreamer and expecting them. Only Dreamers can control their dreams. If they tried to enter anyone else's dream, they'd be sucked in. Egwene never tries to enter Elayne's and Nynaeve's dreams. She just touches the border of the dream and shouts inside at them.

 

Perrin's experiences show it can be done though it's high-risk.

Elan's done it to the Ta'veren as well and we have references that suggest Be'lal did it to Alviarin.

 

I think you missed the point. The point isn't that it can't be done, we know it can. The point is the Wise Ones wouldn't do it, so it can't be part of her Test. If it's a T'A'R sequence, then it's the Forsaken or Verin.

[anthonypero]

I feel that unless it's something out of the blue. Like a tinker, or Verin (I doubt she knows enough about Aiel, their past, or ToH). Or some time travel hokkum.

 

What makes you think Verin doesn't know enough about Aiel? She served as an Apprentice at Cairhien for months. She had plenty of time there to familiarize herself with Aiel culture enough, and she certainly would have tasked herself with finding out every single word Rand had ever uttered regarding the Aiel. I'm not sure it's Verin, for other reasons, but saying she doesn't know enough about Aiel just isn't right.

[nolirion]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

 

I bet they work for anyone. "It is death to enter Rhuideen to any who is not Aiel" is not to do with the terangreal, it's to do with the fact that the Aiel will kill you for it. Except for Jain Charin - he made it out, but I believe he was insane at the time.

Nope he did not , he travel in the waste yes and saw a bit of Ruideen but never enter it .

About Verrin , she know little and at the time she travel with rand and is Aiel she had other business ; she had no time for that.

[Terez]

Rand could enter Rhuidena because he had Aiel blood in him. His looks were not a determining factor.

 

Well, since in addition to there being no beginnings nor endings in the Wheel of Time, there are also no DNA tests, how were they to know that, other than his size, his coloring and his looks?

 

I bet they work for anyone. "It is death to enter Rhuideen to any who is not Aiel" is not to do with the terangreal, it's to do with the fact that the Aiel will kill you for it. Except for Jain Charin - he made it out, but I believe he was insane at the time.

You must have missed the RJ quote I gave right above your post.

[Sharaman]

Direct quote to PULL a sleeping person into Tel'aran'rhiod??? One forsaken has claimed and seems to seemingly have proven she can ENTER, even an warded dream, while another dreamwalker can explicitly ENTER another's dream unknown to the dreamer.... but to pull a person into Tel'aran'rhiod and not OUT of....

where is this stated?

I quoted it in my Nakomi theory. They also can't enter another person's dreams unless the person is a Dreamer and expecting them. Only Dreamers can control their dreams. If they tried to enter anyone else's dream, they'd be sucked in. Egwene never tries to enter Elayne's and Nynaeve's dreams. She just touches the border of the dream and shouts inside at them.

 

Perrin's experiences show it can be done though it's high-risk.

Elan's done it to the Ta'veren as well and we have references that suggest Be'lal did it to Alviarin.

 

I think you missed the point. The point isn't that it can't be done, we know it can. The point is the Wise Ones wouldn't do it, so it can't be part of her Test. If it's a T'A'R sequence, then it's the Forsaken or Verin.

Yes mate - if you bothered to read the earlier bits of this thread, I said it before you did.

And -- Verin has successfully concealed serious dreamwalking ability if it is her.

[Terez]

Yes mate - if you bothered to read the earlier bits of this thread, I said it before you did.

Which leaves one to wonder why you made the irrelevant distinction in your response to me.

 

And -- Verin has successfully concealed serious dreamwalking ability if it is her.

Not all that concealed. Her first POV ever reveals that she is the only Aes Sedai to have read Corianin Nedeal's notes, and the fact that she didn't give them to Egwene suggests there was something dangerous in them. She told Egwene she'd only used the ter'angreal once, but she didn't think it. And of course, now we know she can lie.

[Sharaman]

Yes mate - if you bothered to read the earlier bits of this thread, I said it before you did.

Which leaves one to wonder why you made the irrelevant distinction in your response to me.

 

And -- Verin has successfully concealed serious dreamwalking ability if it is her.

Not all that concealed. Her first POV ever reveals that she is the only Aes Sedai to have read Corianin Nedeal's notes, and the fact that she didn't give them to Egwene suggests there was something dangerous in them. She told Egwene she'd only used the ter'angreal once, but she didn't think it. And of course, now we know she can lie.

It's not an irrelevant distinction. The way you stated it makes it seem as though you believe it flat out cannot be done. It can be done.

 

Verin's ability is not all that revealed either. She's never ever popped up when the Aiel Dreamwalkers were around (and they have memories/ anecdotes about TAR going back centuries given that they remember Nedeal. Nor has she appeared anywhere in the dreamland PoVs of the Wondergirls.

You're presuming she can do the DW at very high levels of skill - I find it difficult to imagine that she could have got to that stage without some early fumbles where the Aiel DW would have picked her up. It certainly isn't a given.

[Terez]

Yes mate - if you bothered to read the earlier bits of this thread, I said it before you did.

Which leaves one to wonder why you made the irrelevant distinction in your response to me.

 

And -- Verin has successfully concealed serious dreamwalking ability if it is her.

Not all that concealed. Her first POV ever reveals that she is the only Aes Sedai to have read Corianin Nedeal's notes, and the fact that she didn't give them to Egwene suggests there was something dangerous in them. She told Egwene she'd only used the ter'angreal once, but she didn't think it. And of course, now we know she can lie.

It's not an irrelevant distinction. The way you stated it makes it seem as though you believe it flat out cannot be done.

I don't see how you get that from what I said. I was responding to someone who said that the Wise Ones had done it.

[yoniy0]

I don't see how you get that from what I said. I was responding to someone who said that the Wise Ones had done it.

For what it's worth, I thought the same thing when I first read your post. Except I didn't believe you could've actually meant that.

[WolfDragonFox]

I actually think this Nakomi lady is Verin and we are seeing Avi before Verin makes her Black Ajah reveal in TGS. I have no proof of course but i think it seems that way, it seemed much more like an Aes Sedai with Aiel knowledge and experience talking than it did an actual real Aiel. Thats what it feels like to me though!!

[dahuo]

Ahh, thanks for the reminder Terez and Sharaman. Also, anthonypero, to show it CAN be done shows that the "pulled into Tel'aran'rhiod" theory has merit, thats why I asked, but I'm shown that it's possible :). I'm still not convinced this scene took place in tel.... but it's more possible to me.... as has been stated, the ambient light and flickery-ness of the place doesn't seem to show in the way the scene is told. Although, not many tel scenes lately (last book or two) seem to make the point of that beyond the flickeryness... but consistently fire is pointed out to not show, as it's rather transitory in the waking world, so the campfire seems (at least to me) to flat out refuse this scene took place in the "unseen world."

 

Wait!!! I have it, Nakomi is Perrin dressed like an Aeil blacksmith woman!!!!! Just 'cause Avy didn't notice the beard doesn't mean it didn't look ladylike!!! It all makes sense now!!! :D

 

In all seriousness though.... did Verin and Aviendha ever even meet? Didn't Verin and Rand separate after she went back to Tar Valon with Mat before resurfacing in the two rivers? Also, didn't Rand meet Avy after going to the waste, although Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve met her first I remember (I love the line about making a ship by lashing 3 logs together to cross a river). I'm on a re-read right now but I don't remember Verin having ever met her off the top of my head(I'm a bit weak on the first 3 books until the Shadow Rising, when I really got into the series) . Verin seemed to mostly interact with the Aeil with Gaul, Bain, and Chaid. At least that I remember that we were privilaged to see (since we obviously found out that Verin was rather active in the background).

[Durinax]

I remember a point in the books whe nthey said the barriers between what was real and not real where getting really thin.

 

I almost think that this lady is in fact an jenn aiel brought up from the past, who had enough time to talk to a few people and then wander into avi's path before the pattern corrected itself. Now the only piece of evidence I have is that instances of the pattern 'screwing' up seem to be getting longer and longer. the first real one I can think of off the top of my head was the random Shiotan village which disappeared rather quickly, then theres the repeating ones in the tower and hinderstrap, of ghosts and people going mad.

[Sharaman]

Avi was in Tear and then the Waste and with Rand till she went to Salidar in LoC. After that, she was in Ebou Dar and then with Elayne in Andor and back to Arad Doman and back to the Waste

Verin did not have a chance to meet her except during LoC when they were in Carhein at the same time (assuming Verin did not actually know Travel and conceal her knowledge of it).

 

Edit: A fire lit in meatspace doesn't usually reflect in TAR but a fire can be lit in TAR itself. Anyway TAR-Dreamworld is one of several possibilities - it seems the likeliest explanation for the too fast cooking, appearance-disappearance etc. Another possibility is that Avi was placed under Compulsion and told to forget certain details. A third is that it was a genuine dream.

[Shoulderthumper]

Forgive me if I am way off base here, as I certainly am not as familiar with all the minutiae as many of you are, but here a question I have, that I think may be related.

 

Do we ever figure out who the old woman is that helps Egwene early on in TAR in the Stone of Tear? She seemed to be a character that arose out of nowhere and then was never discussed further, very similar to Nakomi, only now she appears in the flesh.

 

Obviously this can be dispelled by the explanation for who that original character was, and clearly I missed that one.

[Sharaman]

Forgive me if I am way off base here, as I certainly am not as familiar with all the minutiae as many of you are, but here a question I have, that I think may be related.

 

Do we ever figure out who the old woman is that helps Egwene early on in TAR in the Stone of Tear? She seemed to be a character that arose out of nowhere and then was never discussed further, very similar to Nakomi, only now she appears in the flesh.

 

Obviously this can be dispelled by the explanation for who that original character was, and clearly I missed that one.

"Sylvie" reappears in the epilogue of ToM. Nowadays she's called Cyndane.