The White Tower

[Luckers]

Discuss.

[Luckers]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

[caffiend98]

Did anyone else find the little conversation between Egwene and Mesaana about why the adam wouldn't work in TAR a bit... absurd? Seriously, exposition in the middle of a fierce, brutal, ruthless battle?

 

That being said, Egwene is still one of my favorites, and I think the writing has been pretty good for her.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

I fell in love with Nynaeve in this book. She was getting awesome beforehand, but now she is the greatest. Her testing was PERFECT, I loved what happened. Egwene needs to really change her ways. As much good as she did in tGS, she was a real idiot in ToM. Specially with Gawyn. She still thinks she knows everything, and nearly gets killed for it. Nynaeve is right. Egwene and the AS are too detacted. I think Egwene is making the same mistake Rand did. Hopefully however, after the episode with Gawyn nearly dying she has re-adjusted her personality.

[Jeangray]

She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Well, if he wanted to transmigrate her, he could always send somebody to kill her. Although, since minds transfer too on transmigration, maybe she can't be fixed. We really don't know.

 

I was disappointed that Egwene did nothing to really prepare the White Tower for Tarmon Gaidon, though, and abandoned prosecution of war to a committee(!). WT needs to redeem itself and this makes it very unlikely that it will.

 

Was Moiraine weakened to finally demolish the OP hierarchy? I really hope that we won't see her being bossed by every other AS in existence and serving everybody tea... Surely her legend status should be good for something!

 

I also hope that she manages to kick ass despite her impediment, due to fighting smart rather than using the same boring shields,lightnings and fireballs as everybody else.

 

I really hope that Moiraine gets Healed before the end though. It is as Lan said - she is as much a warrior as him and having Moiraine weakened is like seeing Lan crippled. And if even taint madness can be Healed, it would be arbitrary to have her affliction be unhealable.

 

Re: the Kin, Egwene's scheme would have all the most experienced and worldwise people in the Kin, while the untried folks will have political power of the AS. This is a bad idea. At the very least, every Accepted should spend a few years working with the Kin in different countries before getting raised.

[Barid Bel Medar]

She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

I was disappointed that Egwene did nothing to really prepare the White Tower for Tarmon Gaidon, though, and abandoned prosecution of war to a committee(!). WT needs to redeem itself and this makes it very unlikely that it will.

.

 

YES! Someone who agrees. I really thought she was going to do some awesome stuff since tGS, but ToM really made me dislike her again. True enough, she SHOULD be wary of Rand's plan to break the seals.

 

However, as you said, she isnt actually doing anything about it.

 

All she is doing is disrupting Rand's plan by gathering people against him. She SHOUlD be thinking of an alternate plan to present to him, not just say "you cant do it.."

 

Hopefully she has been doing something like that offscreen, but i dont think so.

[GB]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

yeah one of the best scenes for me is def Nynaeve testing. she stays true to herself and the way she put Barasine in her place by demonstrating the true meaning of aes sedai. she is getting more awesome.

 

and rand last conversation with her was a good scene. and quite touching as well.

[Axon]

For me, Nynavene has solidified herself as the greatest female channeler of her age. The Dragon Reborn demanded her presence beside him at the Last Battle. Hard to have a better endorsement. Egwene...eh. She and Rand are very much alike, or were, before Rand's flower child turn. Egwene is just as arrogant, demanding, judgmental, and unwilling to compromise. She's smart and effective, but also too cautious in many ways.

 

I am not sure what role the WT believes it's going to play. A simplistic raid almost put an end to it, and if Egwene wasn't there at the time, there would likely not be a White Tower. The shadow will be even more ruthless. I can really only see three to five Aes Sedai having a positive effect on the last battle: Egwene, Cadusane, Nyn, Moiraine...I can't even really think of another one.

[Jeangray]

 

However, as you said, she isnt actually doing anything about it.

 

All she is doing is disrupting Rand's plan by gathering people against him. She SHOUlD be thinking of an alternate plan to present to him, not just say "you cant do it.."

 

I was thinking of more mundane stuff, like forcing everybody to their full potentials, setting sisters to develop truly effective ways of OP combat for people whose main strengths are in Water and Air, training AS and Accepted to fight in concert with the troops, etc.

 

But certainly, Egwene's seeming failure to set somebody she trusts to study Verin's work and gain some insights into the Shadow's goals as well as general lack of interest re: hypothetical methods of new sealing are also troubling. Of course, WoT generally favors things being done in the nick of time and people flying by the seat of their pants, so maybe it is the true reason for Egwene's apathy there. Can't have a hero being too well prepared, heh.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But certainly, Egwene's seeming failure to set somebody she trusts to study Verin's work and gain some insights into the Shadow's goals as well as general lack of interest re: hypothetical methods of new sealing are also troubling. Of course, WoT generally favors things being done in the nick of time and people flying by the seat of their pants, so maybe it is the true reason for Egwene's apathy there. Can't have a hero being too well prepared, heh.

 

That's why I have to chuckle every time I see somebody talking about how "realistic" the series is, and also why I have such a problem with how it has been written to this point. The whole thrust seems to be, "It's OK to be stupid because Providence will intervene at the last second to save you."

 

Corelle personifies that whole attitude in The Gathering Storm:

"What does it matter?" Corelle said.

 

Nynaeve turned in shock.

 

"Well?" Corele set down her mending. "What does it matter? We're obviously going to succeed."

 

"Light!" Nynaeve said. "What gave you that idea?"

 

"We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions." Corelle nodded to Min. "They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying."

 

"No," Min said. "You're wrong."

 

Corelle frowned. "Child are you saying that you lied about the things you've seen?"

 

"No, Min said. "But if Rand loses there is no Pattern."

 

"The girl is correct." Cadsuane sounded surprised. "What this child sees are weavings in the Pattern from a time still distant - but if the Dark One wins, he will destroy the Pattern entirely. That is the only way the visions could fail to occur. The same holds true for other prophesies and Foretellings. Our victory is by no means sure."

 

It seems not Egwene nor anyone else in the Tower has made that connection, that leap. They naively think all they have to do is get the Dragon Reborn to show up and everything will be fine, because they too have evidence for life after the Last Battle.

[Jeangray]

 

That's why I have to chuckle every time I see somebody talking about how "realistic" the series is, and also why I have such a problem with how it has been written to this point. The whole thrust seems to be, "It's OK to be stupid because Providence will intervene at the last second to save you."

 

This is my least favorite part of the series too, along with the tendency to dumb everybody down in order to make heroes look smart.

But then, all of the main characters would have had to be very different characters without it... And AS couldn't have been so comically inept either.

 

They naively think all they have to do is get the Dragon Reborn to show up and everything will be fine, because they too have evidence for life after the Last Battle.

 

But isn't it what Rand is currently doing too? He is intending to break the Seals and Travel to SG without a clue what he needs to do there. Hoping that, as many times previously, the Pattern will provide. Personally, I always felt that it was a very intricate trap, to get Rand and the other ta'veren to rely on the Pattern so completely and then yank that rug away at the crucial moment. But by this point, I am honestly not sure.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But isn't it what Rand is currently doing too? He is intending to break the Seals and Travel to SG without a clue what he needs to do there. Hoping that, as many times previously, the Pattern will provide. Personally, I always felt that it was a very intricate trap, to get Rand and the other ta'veren to rely on the Pattern so completely and then yank that rug away at the crucial moment. But by this point, I am honestly not sure.

 

You may well be right. I continue to hope that Rand has some plan that has not been shared with us yet. Like you I'm unsure, but still trying desperately to hope somebody at long last does something intelligent. Twelve for sure ( and maybe thirteen now ) books of everybody being stupid is eleven books too many.

[Yehosh]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

Regarding Moiraine, saving her was required to save the world right? Rand mentioned he wants Nynaeve to use Callandor with him, I bet he'd want Moiraine to be the second when he sees her alive. I don't think Rand will choose the second person based on strength in the power, it'd be based on the reasons he mentioned to Nynaeve, trust. And we keep heering everybody say how Moiraine was the one AE that rand listened to. What do you think?

[Sharaman]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

Regarding Moiraine, saving her was required to save the world right? Rand mentioned he wants Nynaeve to use Callandor with him, I bet he'd want Moiraine to be the second when he sees her alive. I don't think Rand will choose the second person based on strength in the power, it'd be based on the reasons he mentioned to Nynaeve, trust. And we keep heering everybody say how Moiraine was the one AE that rand listened to. What do you think?

Moiraine probably has vital information relating to what Rand must do. We know only one thing about her set of questions/ wishes.

[ClubCaved]

Everyone who's complaining about Egwene letting the Hall take over direction of Bryne's army is forgetting that she gained the Hall's agreement that no one can approach Rand except through her. She also got rid of secret meetings of the Hall. No more surprise unseatings of the Amyrlin.

[Tsunami]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

So, you think she is beyond even the healing that Ishy gave to LT, curing his madness?

[Bob T Dwarf]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

So, you think she is beyond even the healing that Ishy gave to LT, curing his madness?

 

We only have Ishy's word that he "cured" LTT. I don't trust Ishy for anything. He may have caused LTT to accept the scenario he'd already suggested, but I very sincerely doubt that he "cured" him.

[Deadsy]

Was Moiraine weakened to finally demolish the OP hierarchy? I really hope that we won't see her being bossed by every other AS in existence and serving everybody tea... Surely her legend status should be good for something!

 

Mo's not going to give a flying f* about hierarchy after what she's been through. I'll laugh if/when someone tries to take the angreal away from her. She'll just stare at them and they'll start sweating.

 

 

As for someone's mention of how she's supposed to save the world, she may have information for Rand. But I also think she'll be important in the talks between Rand and Egwene. She's probably the best common link they both have. Her and Nynaeve. I also believe she will be with Rand and Nynaeve at Shayol Ghul.

[amaranth]

I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

I assume that Egwene means to "retire" most/all Aes Sedai into the Kin. Once the Kin becomes powerful enough, the laws that dictate rank amongst channelers in the White Tower will change.

[Barid Bel Medar]

But isn't it what Rand is currently doing too? He is intending to break the Seals and Travel to SG without a clue what he needs to do there. Hoping that, as many times previously, the Pattern will provide. Personally, I always felt that it was a very intricate trap, to get Rand and the other ta'veren to rely on the Pattern so completely and then yank that rug away at the crucial moment. But by this point, I am honestly not sure.

 

You may well be right. I continue to hope that Rand has some plan that has not been shared with us yet. Like you I'm unsure, but still trying desperately to hope somebody at long last does something intelligent. Twelve for sure ( and maybe thirteen now ) books of everybody being stupid is eleven books too many.

 

To me it seems clear what he intends to do.

 

He IS LTT now. He knows how to seal the bore again. But this time, he wants help from the female channelers, unlike the last time. True, it is pretty vague, but I think he knows what he is doing. Thats the impression I got.

 

It was a bit annoying that he didnt explain himself to Egwene, I mean, it was him just saying "oh, by the way, Im going to set the DO free to seal him up"

However, as someone mentioned somewhere, I think that Rand was actually counting on the fact that Egwene would opppose him. It certainly turned out ot be the easiest way to get the forces of the Light to gather while Rand was free to run round killing trollocs at maradon etc..

[saterade]

What rand did with egwene is actually quite smart. He knows that she is almost exactly like he used to be, and that she'd throw a "I'm smarter than everybody, just because i'm me" fit and get everybody to show up on the plains. He doesn't have to do a thing and everybody is going to come to a meeting that he told only her about. In essence, he got egwene to do his dirty work; he's not going to that meeting to talk about removing the seals, he's doing that regardless of whatever anyone says. He wants everybody in one place to set up that peace accord that was in Avhienda's dreams of the future. I won't be surprised if the seanchan crash the party on the plains early on in the next book, for this very reason. Rand/LT knows exactly what he wants to do, and he was purposely vague with egwene and the Hall so that this Grand Summit can go down.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

What's the total death count for BA and AS in the book?

[Celes Chere]

What rand did with egwene is actually quite smart. He knows that she is almost exactly like he used to be, and that she'd throw a "I'm smarter than everybody, just because i'm me" fit and get everybody to show up on the plains. He doesn't have to do a thing and everybody is going to come to a meeting that he told only her about.

Indeed. I was surprised; Rand's not usually such a deft manipulator, but post tGS his attitude and maturity seems to have changed a lot about the way that he interacts with powerful people.

 

I was slightly let down by the WT's role in this novel, but I think it was necessary. Yes, Egwene should be preparing every last Aes Sedai for the Last Battle, but fighting against the WT's division and ingrained attitudes, specifically that they must be in control before any major events should procede, would mean that the current issues in the tower need to be healed, or in the case of Mesaana, removed. There has also been a lot of change, much of it positive, in Egwene's reign. Recruiting older novices, allowing Nynaeve to pass on merits other than calm and forcing transparency in the Hall's meeting are all changes for the good.

 

There is more needed, though. Rand needed to learn to change, and I think Aes Sedai do, as well; to accept that male channelers and non-Aes Sedai female channelers are equal to themselves. Egwene knows that Rand is powerful and dangerous, but still she tries to take the reins and belittle him, even to herself, thinking of Rand as a criminal calmly giving himself up, who must surrender to Aes Sedai who surely know better. She has trained with the Aiel Wise Ones, but she still is trying to put them in a position in which they and the Sea Folk Windfinders are beneath the WT. Whether or not they do know better and are more powerful is another argument entirely, but the scenes are representative of the Tower-first attitude assumed by the Aes Sedai as a whole. Frustrating!

 

On a different note, I was also interested by the scene where Fortuona gets ready for the next assault on the White Tower, but with Travelling added as a sting. Here's hoping they organise themselves and get ready to fight in time for Tarmon Gaidon and the next assault from the Seanchan.

[GB]

i wonder if the seanchan assault would occur when the discussion at the fields is taking place

[Tom Sawyer]

Am I the only one who was badly disappointed by the way the whole Mesanna thing was played out? It was supposed to be this big deal about how she beat the Oath Rod, but then some Aes Sedai just came up with a few random weaves that she might have done and the subject never came up again. It was supposed to be this big deal about how Egwene tracked her down and figured out who she was, but then she just smoked her in Dreamland and then had people wander around to various and find Danelle lying there drooling.

 

It was a cool fight in Dreamland and all, but the whole resolution to the Mesanna plotline was just kind of anti-climactic.