The Black Tower

[AutomatedTeller]

Taim = Moridin. Well, I don't know that I buy it, but if it's true, it explains a lot.

 

But Moridin has the saa all the time in his eyes, no? I've not seen any indication of that in Taim.

 

I think it's interesting.

[Danny7185]

I really don't see how Taim and Moridin can be the same person.

 

#1: They look nothing alike. Moridin is blond and looks rather like Rand. Taim is dark. Way too many people are in close contact with Taim for him to get away with Mask of Mirrors. He's not aloof the way Semirhage's alter ego was.

 

#2: Their personalities are nothing alike. Moridin is an intellectual, quite cool-headed, and we've never seen evidence of a Taim-sized ego in him either.

 

So, working for Moridin, pretty obvious. IS Moridin, unlikely.

 

 

Ishamael was presumably resurrected by the Great Lord into a new body with a new name, Moridin (Old Tongue for death). He is now very tall and broad-shouldered, he has very blue eyes and a deep voice and looks to be in his mid 20's with black hair. He has a square chin.

 

As you can see from the above discription you are WRONG about #1 in fact Moridin has been described on numerous occasions as being dark haired in the books.

 

It doesn't really matter what Moridin looks like. We know he doesn't always look like Taim because Rand has seen both Taim and Moridin.

 

So if he is disguising himself as Taim he is using the Mask of Mirrors or some other unheard of technique or ter'angreal. And if that is the case, then what he looks like out of disguise as Moridin is irrelevant.

[Sharaman]

I really don't see how Taim and Moridin can be the same person.

 

#1: They look nothing alike. Moridin is blond and looks rather like Rand. Taim is dark. Way too many people are in close contact with Taim for him to get away with Mask of Mirrors. He's not aloof the way Semirhage's alter ego was.

 

#2: Their personalities are nothing alike. Moridin is an intellectual, quite cool-headed, and we've never seen evidence of a Taim-sized ego in him either.

 

So, working for Moridin, pretty obvious. IS Moridin, unlikely.

 

 

Ishamael was presumably resurrected by the Great Lord into a new body with a new name, Moridin (Old Tongue for death). He is now very tall and broad-shouldered, he has very blue eyes and a deep voice and looks to be in his mid 20's with black hair. He has a square chin.

 

As you can see from the above discription you are WRONG about #1 in fact Moridin has been described on numerous occasions as being dark haired in the books.

 

It doesn't really matter what Moridin looks like. We know he doesn't always look like Taim because Rand has seen both Taim and Moridin.

 

So if he is disguising himself as Taim he is using the Mask of Mirrors or some other unheard of technique or ter'angreal. And if that is the case, then what he looks like out of disguise as Moridin is irrelevant.

MoM is out.

Taim has been in too much physical contact from the very first scene where he appears. Poked by swords, holding Flinn, etc.

Some other weird mask, maybe.

But I don't see why he can't simply be a worthy Third Age recruit to the somewhat depleted ranks of GLoD's Chosen.

Maybe even a normally reborn FS from the AoL (one who wasn't trapped in the Bore).

[Terez]

Illusion is not out - it can only be penetrated by a touch if the Illusion is markedly different in bone structure. And even then, True Power Illusion works at least a little differently; Brandon said so.

[darko]

At the end of Working Leather

 

"Something is strange about Nensen," Nalaam repeated. "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he grow so powerful so quickly?"

 

In LoC I vaguely remember a conversation between Rand and Taim, where he asked Taim if someone was learning too quickly...is it possible Kash is one of the Chosen?

[Sharaman]

At the end of Working Leather

 

"Something is strange about Nensen," Nalaam repeated. "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he grow so powerful so quickly?"

 

In LoC I vaguely remember a conversation between Rand and Taim, where he asked Taim if someone was learning too quickly...is it possible Kash is one of the Chosen?

There are two of the fast growing stronger saidin channelers mentioned - saidin ang'reals from Moridin's store seem more likely than two new male Chosen. Aginor is the only saidin channeling Forsaken who can be resurrected and not accounted for.

[Ghalleon]

Not to distract from the whole Taim/Moridin discussion...but anyone curious as to what weave Rand taught to Naeff? Since it's supposed to disguise him, I would assume either Illusion, or that inverted weave to hide his ability to channel. I'm curious as to whether Naeff will make contact with Logain, or more probably with Androl and the Two Rivers men. Rand's instructions to Naeff hints that he has an idea of what is causing the Traveling problem within the BT ( no doubt gleaned from Lews Therin's memories), and it also seem clear that he is finally going to do something about the BT. He sure is cutting it close though, since our last view of Rand is a day before his meeting with Egwene.

 

Back to Naeff, I'm surprised at his elevation to assistant-to-the-Dragon ( as far as storytelling goes), I had assumed Narishma was being groomed for that. It's just surprising that the other Asha'man have been moved to the backdrop.

 

I'm with the others regarding Logain, where the hell is he? Judging from the return of Mezar, it sounds like perhaps Logain and his men found something, Mezar got caught, and Logain is in hiding/further investigating.

 

Just a thought, but it seems to me that Taim pressuring the Asha'man to continously hold saidin serves two purposes: it makes them gain strength faster, and it makes them deal with their existing madness on a constant basis. The former I'm pretty sure I read in earlier books as a method of gaining strength rapidly with the risk of burning out; the latter as a way of control through either paranoia or just plain madness, which I think makes sense since Taim is setting the Dragon up as a source of all the bad things happening and Taim is the way to betterment, so to speak. Which leads me to...

 

I'm not sure that all of the men in Taim's camp has been turned, it just sounds like too much hassle and effort. Since it was mentioned that doing the 13/13 would have to be on people of significance, they probably did turn the more influential/strong ones to act as sort of lieutenants, or maybe even the ones doing the training. The others just joined in because Taim's group was the only way to advance (since they were the only ones granted the Dragon pin) and being exposed to more talk about the Dragon betraying them and being insane probably instilled a sense of outrage towards the dragon and those who support him in the BT. As far as I can tell, not too many have been described to have those "soulless" look such as ascribed to Tarna and Mezar. Besides, who would you side with: the dragon, who has left many people angry with his percieved abandonement, or Taim, who shows results and a growing cadre of supporters, and is actually present in the BT?

 

It's pretty hard to reason things out with the jumble of timelines, we need some sort of spreadsheet or something to help lay thngs out. At least, I'm pretty confused, hopefully once I complete my re-read ( aka as not rushing through) I'll have a more cogent understanding of the time frame.

 

I think it would be pretty cool though, if the Taim faction ( with their Aes Sedai) would have a battle royale with Logain's Asha'man ( and their Aes Sedai).

[Duskfire]

Back to Naeff, I'm surprised at his elevation to assistant-to-the-Dragon ( as far as storytelling goes), I had assumed Narishma was being groomed for that. It's just surprising that the other Asha'man have been moved to the backdrop.

 

Yeah same. Naeff showed up in TGS out of nowhere and since then has probably been the Asha`man in the books the most. Flinn and Narishma have taken a bit of a backseat. Its kind of cool that WoT is able to introduce new characters like that and have them be relativily important, but I want some Narishma love!

[Crael123]

Back to Naeff, I'm surprised at his elevation to assistant-to-the-Dragon ( as far as storytelling goes), I had assumed Narishma was being groomed for that. It's just surprising that the other Asha'man have been moved to the backdrop.

 

Yeah same. Naeff showed up in TGS out of nowhere and since then has probably been the Asha`man in the books the most. Flinn and Narishma have taken a bit of a backseat. Its kind of cool that WoT is able to introduce new characters like that and have them be relativily important, but I want some Narishma love!

 

I thought Flinn and Narishma were going to be the ones!! Flinn saved his life!! Were thet still with Rand?

 

I havent read the book yet tho.

[Guest]

Back to Naeff, I'm surprised at his elevation to assistant-to-the-Dragon ( as far as storytelling goes), I had assumed Narishma was being groomed for that. It's just surprising that the other Asha'man have been moved to the backdrop.

 

Yeah same. Naeff showed up in TGS out of nowhere and since then has probably been the Asha`man in the books the most. Flinn and Narishma have taken a bit of a backseat. Its kind of cool that WoT is able to introduce new characters like that and have them be relativily important, but I want some Narishma love!

 

I thought Flinn and Narishma were going to be the ones!! Flinn saved his life!! Were thet still with Rand?

 

I havent read the book yet tho.

 

Couldn't agree more! Narishma and Flinn (and Logain ofc) were in my mind supposed to be the new leaders at the BT. Flinn in charge of healing, Narishma destruction and Logain as M'hael. I am not however, opposed to having Naeff and Androl a part of that group seeing they do alot of awesome in the books. Including Naeld and (dont remember his name atm) the two Asha'man Perrin has at his disposal. These guys and the two-rivers asha'man must, i repeat, must lead the way to a shining new future for the BT!

[Templadir]

The key can be set to control who gets in and out and who can open a gateway at all. The reason they can't open any gateways within the dome (as opposed to gateways to get out of the dome) is because Taim doesn't want anybody wandering into his palace unannounced from within the compound. Presumably the dome is big enough to cover Caemlin? Elayene is busy claiming the Sun Throne, others have gone to the royal tea party, that only leaves Talemanes and the Band...

No the dome can't cover both BT and Caemlyn - the BT is large and quite a distance from Caemlyn. The other DSpike could only radiate out about 4 leagues - beyond that Grady-Neald could make Gates.

In fact, even a D-Spike placed inside Caemlyn Palace probably wouldn't cover all of Caemlyn town

 

1 league = 4 miles, and the spike can be moved so even if they can't cover both BT and Caemlin at the same time, and even assuming the radius can not be made larger I think they could take Caemlin. All they have to do is Travel into the palace.

Oh, and Roedran doesn't seem to be doing much at the moment....

 

I'm in the first half of the book of my re-read but am guessing the D-spike covered Caemlyn too, at least for a while. If I remember correctly it was most likely activated when Gawyn traveled back to Tar Valon to fight the Bloodknives. He remarked that the gateway closed to suddenly and almost cut him in half. Nyneave went to the Black Tower prior to this.

Don't remember where Perrin and Galad traveled to from Whitebridge in relation to Caemlyn or if they went by land (only that they met Mat along the way). Was there any traveling in or out from Caemlyn city proper later in the book?

[David Selig]

No, Gawyn's Gateway closed because Slayer moved his dreamspike to Tar Valon at that time.

 

*edit* Actually, Perrin moved the dreamspike there, Slayer just chased him.

[pc0000001]

Hi all, some thoughts on Taim and the Black Tower:

• Isn't it ironic how Logain has taken the spot Taim wanted for himself, ie. at Rand's side. You might say Narishma/Flinn/Naeff do this also.
  
• I know the BUT has been solved, but what about the substance of the Dragons on Taim's coat? Rand sees them in LOC and wonders what makes the blue thread shine. They're also mentioned a lot by various characters.
  
• On Theoryland someone mentioned the pronunciation of 'Taim' means it could be Old Tongue ie. Faile is Fah-EEL and means Falcon. Mazrim is probably a Saldaean first name, similar to Davram.
  
• In ToM we hear Taim refer to Rand by his name for the first time ever, he usually says nothing or 'My Lord Dragon'.
  
• It seems physical abuse of Asha'man by Taim has been happening for awhile. When Grady mentions the wife-bond Canler figured out to Perrin, Perrin sees him grimace to remember Taim's reaction.
  
• Who is Tiam of Gazar, the inventor of the calendar. Probably irrelevant lol.
  

Btw, whatever happened to Robert Alex Willis?

[Templadir]

No, Gawyn's Gateway closed because Slayer moved his dreamspike to Tar Valon at that time.

 

Ah. Of course. A lot of information in the book. Hard to remembe all small details from one speed reading.

Thanks!

[everetc]

I was in a hurry last night when I was making the post regarding Moridin possibly disguising himself and being Taim, but in addition to what was mentioned, Taim has very intense reactions to orders from Rand. He gets visibly furious, and then regains his composure (also noted by Perrin and the scents Taim emits). If Taim were to be Moridin, taking orders from Rand would surely enrage him as he is submitting to someone he feels he is an equal or most likely superior to. I KNOW there is a connection between them obviously, but I cannot shake the sensation that it is more than just coincidence that they share so many characteristics, traits, sayings, etc. (or a huge red herring).

[JDJ]

 

...I'm not sure that all of the men in Taim's camp has been turned, it just sounds like too much hassle and effort. Since it was mentioned that doing the 13/13 would have to be on people of significance, they probably did turn the more influential/strong ones to act as sort of lieutenants, or maybe even the ones doing the training. The others just joined in because Taim's group was the only way to advance (since they were the only ones granted the Dragon pin) and being exposed to more talk about the Dragon betraying them and being insane probably instilled a sense of outrage towards the dragon and those who support him in the BT. As far as I can tell, not too many have been described to have those "soulless" look such as ascribed to Tarna and Mezar. Besides, who would you side with: the dragon, who has left many people angry with his percieved abandonement, or Taim, who shows results and a growing cadre of supporters, and is actually present in the BT?...

 

 

Given Taim was in charge of recruiting, it could be possible he focused on finding men who could channel that were Darkfriends, and hence, already under his influence.

 

Those not already following Taim might have been the guys that showed up to be tested on their own.

 

The whole 13X13'd discussion could be an exaggeration... not saying it did not happen, just saying it is unlikely to be done on the scale to explain the division in the BT.

[TheAngryDruid]

Two points.

 

One regarding Emarin. The earlier post hit it on the head. Emarin Pendaloan was Algarin's younger brother. Cadsuane had taken him to the Tower after he began channeling, and helped him live for 10 years after he was gentled. Algarin was grateful, and hence the use of the manor. Point being here, Emarin was a first name, not a House name. And Emarin is dead. Now, the chances of 2 channeling noblemen named Emarin seems pretty slim.

 

I'd guess that Emarin is just a disguise that Rand/Logain and/or the other AM from Logain's faction use to keep tabs on the BT. I wouldn't be surprised if more than one of them use Emarin's face. Rand's statement that he cannot Travel to the BT might indicate he has done it successfully recently. Once the Dreamspike got used, whomever was there as Emarin was stuck. If Rand can teach Naeff a disguise weave, it is natural to assume he could have done so with Logain or another AM before him.

 

As for the group that seems to discount the idea of Taim/Moridin because they look alike, or seem to consider Taim a plain old 3rd age DF. I really think both views are hard to stomach, or at least their proponent ignore and fail to explain a heck of a lot.

 

In terms of the looking, we've already scene Forsaken disguise their appearances and abilities to channel amongst a group of people for long periods, in some cases among those who know illusion, the Mirror of the Mists, and even the inverting weaves trick. Mesaana as Danelle in the Tower, Moghedien as Marigan and as the servant in Tanchico, Lanfear as Sylvase, Else, Keille, and Selene. We know Rand knows a weave that can disguise someone, why not Moridin. Plus, the dismissive POV also misses the fact that Bashere did not, in fact, recognize Taim at first.

 

Additionally, Taim uses phrases we've only seen 2nd Agers uses, uses phrases (LoC rule) and instruments (Dream Spike) we've only seen made available to the Chosen. He knows weaves only known to 2nd Agers (how to test for the Talent). He sends LTT into a rage. He cringes more than any other (including Logain) at orders from Rand. He uses a sigil only used by Sammael and Be'lal (the fist holding the lightning), but while theirs used steel and silver, his uses gold, indicating he is ABOVE them. He uses Moridin's colors (Black and Red). And now he is starting to stand like Rand, with one hand behind his back. His frequent recruiting parties could also have sought out items of the power (which helps explain his stash), maybe he also raided the Great Holding in Tear (which explains the visit to the Finns when they held Lanfear, the other doorway's destruction, and the added wards on Callandor that gave Narishma trouble).

 

Man, that a LOT of clues. I'm not saying for sure one way or another, but unless a doubter wants to try to explain them all away, it's hard for me to take that argument too seriously. Sometimes a duck is a duck. Graendal killed Asmo. Mesaana was Danelle. Something is up with Emarin and Taim.

[didymos]

I was in a hurry last night when I was making the post regarding Moridin possibly disguising himself and being Taim, but in addition to what was mentioned, Taim has very intense reactions to orders from Rand. He gets visibly furious, and then regains his composure (also noted by Perrin and the scents Taim emits). If Taim were to be Moridin, taking orders from Rand would surely enrage him as he is submitting to someone he feels he is an equal or most likely superior to. I KNOW there is a connection between them obviously, but I cannot shake the sensation that it is more than just coincidence that they share so many characteristics, traits, sayings, etc. (or a huge red herring).

 

One thing that really bugs me with the whole "Taim = Moridin" idea is in WH: First, Taim orders Kisman and Co. to kill Rand, they screw up, and he then tells them to hit Far Madding and this time do it right, or you're done. Then Demandred shows up at some point and tells Kisman to kill him, and don't tell anyone or let anyone find out, Taim included. Then Moridin shows up and tells Kisman to kill him "if you must" but stealing all of Rand's stuff is top priority. But why in the hell would Moridin do that right after he gave a different, he-must-die-in-no-uncertain-terms order as Taim? I mean, I know Moridin is not exactly stable, but that's just downright nonsensical.

 

Then there's the whole deal with Osan'gar/Dashiva: what was he at the BT for anyway, if Moridin was actually in charge the whole time? He was just sort of there. Did they really need another Forsaken to just hang around? It's not like he could teach: he was supposed to just be some inexperienced-but-talented dude from the Borderlands. And it certainly wasn't so he could keep an eye on Rand. That was a completely random choice on Rand's part, and it was only after the fact that it became Osan'gar's assignment. I.e., one of those too-good-to-pass-up but unplanned opportunities. And why not call him in before the Jerkassa'man hit squad made its move in Cairhien and give him a heads up? Taim was totally shocked that Dashiva had taken part. But if Taim's actually Mr. Nae'blis, what's the reasoning there? And why would he be shocked? It's not like he trusted Osan'gar to not pull a stunt like that if he thought he could get away with it. Again: downright nonsensical. Also: wow, really crappy Nae'blising there, Moridin.

[Crossroad]

While Rand is seeing to the Seachan he will send Logain to sort out the trouble at the BT. The Dreamspike being used at the Tower will be neutralized by Perrin.

[TheAngryDruid]

While Rand is seeing to the Seachan he will send Logain to sort out the trouble at the BT. The Dreamspike being used at the Tower will be neutralized by Perrin.

 

Well, since he's the one who brought it there, that seems fair. Really, it already has been. Perrin threw in in the lava, remember?

 

It seems the best way to handle the Dreamspike at the BT is for Perrin, Egwene, and the WO's to go get it done. The Dreampike prevents traveling, but in T'A'R you can still enter through the dome, and then wake up when/if you need to.

 

With regard to Taim, those are some of the best counterpoints to Taim/Ishy I've seen. Though they do raise more questions instead of answering the ones already posed. Still, good for the goose....

 

The only things I can think of is that Ishy wants his Taim identity to be secret from the other Forsaken (which seems a wise move) and therefore works hard to do so. And somehow, this was a part of it. Though ordering Kisman and that lot to kill Rand would have been disaster for him if they'd succeeded. Maybe he didn't yet understand the nature of their link? I have no explanation for that one. Nor doubling down with Dashiva. Still, it seems that Taim knew Dashiva's ID (he didn't want Rand to take him). Pretty heady stuff for regular DF.

[Cyf]

I honestly doubt that normal Dreamers/Dreamwalkers can move a Dreamspike. It would be a pisspoor defense if the enemy could do that, unless you had people constantly asleep, watching it. I predict that only WBs can move a Dreamspike. And Slayer. :)

[Duskfire]

I honestly doubt that normal Dreamers/Dreamwalkers can move a Dreamspike. It would be a pisspoor defense if the enemy could do that, unless you had people constantly asleep, watching it. I predict that only WBs can move a Dreamspike. And Slayer. :)

 

I agree. The Dreamspike was obviously used to counter travelling and whatnot during sieges during the Age of Legends. It would have been a bit weird to allow a dreamer or anyone with a ter`angreal able to slip into TAR and get rid of it.

[KefkaPalazzo]

While Rand is seeing to the Seachan he will send Logain to sort out the trouble at the BT. The Dreamspike being used at the Tower will be neutralized by Perrin.

 

The only things I can think of is that Ishy wants his Taim identity to be secret from the other Forsaken (which seems a wise move) and therefore works hard to do so. And somehow, this was a part of it. Though ordering Kisman and that lot to kill Rand would have been disaster for him if they'd succeeded. Maybe he didn't yet understand the nature of their link? I have no explanation for that one. Nor doubling down with Dashiva. Still, it seems that Taim knew Dashiva's ID (he didn't want Rand to take him). Pretty heady stuff for regular DF.

 

I took that scene differently. He didn't want Rand to take Dashiva because he was a wild card, IMO. Taim wanted to make the selection himself, and choose one of his men, probably Torval, Kisman, Gedwyn, or Rochaid. Remember the attack at Cairhien? Taim knew about the Fab Four, but not Dashiva. When Rand mentioned that Dashiva was there, too, he was visibly shocked. Osan'gar might not know any of Moridin's disguises, but we have every reason to believe that Moridin knows Osan'gar. In fact, at the cleansing, we find out that there was no disguise. Osan'gar was just running around with a new name.

[Jeangray]

I predict that only WBs can move a Dreamspike. And Slayer. :)

 

I predict, that if Moridin has 2 neurons to rub together, this security hole has been plugged. And I also feel that Slayer may have been intentionally sloppy with the first one in the first place and that he was purposefully setting Graendal for the fall. He certainly had several opportunities to kill Perrin, which he didn't take...

 

Maybe the "sequence" can be "hacked" somehow or maybe Mat will guess it?

 

Anyway, other interesting tidbits of possible Moridin Taim are that he initially intended to stay close to Rand and be his adviser - something that he he had done so successfully with Hawkwing. Ishydin has experience in undermining and perverting even major ta'veren. Also, Taim seems way too sure about the workings of OP - i.e. that Androl's Travelling Talent should have been impossible. Etc.

 

The theory of a new FS also seems de-bunked by Egwene's deam of 6 black towers, which don't leave room for a new FS, leave alone one who has been granted the use of TP as Taim seems to have been - i.e. the whole dark aura and lights dimming that Elayne noticed around him in... WH? In any case, it seems to be exactly like Rand's aura after his own TP dip.

 

While the 4 stooges getting orders both from Taim and Moridin does contradict this theory, Moridin may have just been hiding his position from other FS. Was he even Nae'blis at the end of TPoD? Also, Moridin knew quite well that the 4 had no chance of killing Rand, so he wasn't risking anything, IMHO.

 

As to O'sangar - well, why not? He could do some good at the BT, potentially. Taim had no problem with quickly promoting his favorites (Kisman and Co. were far from the earliest recruits), so if he is Moridin, he could have had O'sangar teaching and generally minding the shop quickly enough, freeing himself for all the other stuff he needs to do. Rand threw a monkey wrench there, though, by snatching Dashiva.

[Sharaman]

I honestly doubt that normal Dreamers/Dreamwalkers can move a Dreamspike. It would be a pisspoor defense if the enemy could do that, unless you had people constantly asleep, watching it. I predict that only WBs can move a Dreamspike. And Slayer. :)

 

I agree. The Dreamspike was obviously used to counter travelling and whatnot during sieges during the Age of Legends. It would have been a bit weird to allow a dreamer or anyone with a ter`angreal able to slip into TAR and get rid of it.

I think the talent of shifting in/out of a Dome thataway may be new and unique to WBs. Not shifting the DSpike itself. All you need to do to guard that is sanitise the area under the dome and then nobody from outside can get in, in TAR or real-world. Yes, you'd guard it of course in TAR - that would have been no big deal in AoL with a multitude of dreamwalkers and ter'angreal.