The Black Tower

[didymos]

You're assuming it was really Taim who gave that order.

 

Yeah, because Rand sent them back to the Black Tower after the Seanchan screw-up. Taim gave them the original kill order after that. Then you have Taim showing up and calmly informing Rand about the 'desertion' he just so conveniently learned about, and yet not surprised by anything he'd seen, but genuinely shocked that Dashiva had joined in. Then Kisman reported back to Taim at the Black Tower to tell him what happened, and he was adamant that they succeed in Far Madding.

 

Now, for a fake Taim, that's a lot of conveniently and precisely timed impersonations to pull off with little or no warning, and at the Black Tower and without the real Taim noticing, no less. Unless you're gonna posit some overly complicated thing where fake Taim and real Taim cooperated. That and there's a little too much acting ability being assumed on the part of both fake Taim in dealing with people who knew real Taim pretty well and on the part of real Taim in the various "Well, real Taim gave one order, but not the other, and just pretended he was responsible 'cause it was a good opportunity or something" type of explanations. That and him not giving either forces us to assume he was actually being honest about stuff with Rand at the end of aPoD. Sure, could be, but I'd be loath to put money on that one.

[didymos]

Somebody sure did. He's a logical candidate.

 

Assuming he wasn't already dead by then. Which is a bad assumption: that tidbit is revealed in KoD, after Osan'gar was worm-food, and Moridin speaks of it as a recent event. Plus, travel in the Ways doesn't take that long, and they appear in Tear in that book. Double-plus, Rand had only just taken up residence there, post-Cleansing, so how was Osan'gar supposed to predict that? Especially since it was Cadsuane's idea, and she also came up with it after the Cleansing.

[AnthonyPlatts]

I wonder if Rand does go to the Black Tower, the reaction from any darkfriends that are there, I think with Rand new awareness, he is will go to the black tower, just to cleanse it from within, we saw how DF's could not even look at him, and when he is channeling they want to and do claw their eyeballs out. I think he will take a mixed group, just because his personal numbers of loyal Ashaman are small.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Somebody sure did. He's a logical candidate.

 

Assuming he wasn't already dead by then. Which is a bad assumption: that tidbit is revealed in KoD, after Osan'gar was worm-food, and Moridin speaks of it as a recent event. Plus, travel in the Ways doesn't take that long, and they appear in Tear in that book. Plus, Rand had only just taken up residence there, post-Cleansing, so how was Osan'gar supposed to predict that? Especially since it was Cadsuane's idea, and she also came up with it after the Cleansing.

 

By the time the Trollocs attacked, Aginor was indeed wormfood. But he was very much alive at the time they were sent into the Ways.

 

Everybody likes to make out that the Trollocs would get there quickly, but, first they've got to be rounded up, then they've got to all file through a single Waygate, then they've all got to get to the destination Waygate and file out again. They're big. Only a few at a time will be able to march through the Waygate opening. There's 100,000 of them.

 

Keep in mind that 30+ days before the Caemlyn attack Verin knows it's coming and puts her warning in that letter to Mat. Caemlyn is a long way north of Tear. Much closer in time and distance to the Blight. Yet, it takes the attacking force over 30 days to get there. How many days had she been trying to go elsewhere and failing before she gave up and sought out Mat so that The Wheel would finally let her move on to do the rest of what she had planned? Without checking the book, I'd guess 7-10. So, conservatively it has taken the force attacking Caemlyn over 40 days to get there from the Blight using the Ways.

 

The force that attacked Rand at the Manor were sent into the Ways days before the Cleansing. It wasn't until Bashere, Logain etal found their way to Rand that a traitor could reroute the Shadowspawn.

[Rufae]

Not having the time to read the previous 12 pages, let me toss my theory out here.

 

Rand goes to the BT to take care of Taim.

 

Unknown to Rand, the Dreamspike is in effect around the BT.

 

Rand gets captured/trapped/in danger.

 

Perrin (who has experience with Dreamspikes) goes and save Rand for the 2nd time, fulfilling the prophecy.

 

 

This would be a mute point if Rand can still use the True Power and the BT Dreamspike doesn't block True Power Travelling.

[aynatal2000]

Are we sure that the Black Tower is not actually a threshold to the Towers of Midnight in the Seanchan lands? Wasn't a comment made about where Moridin actually was making his stronghold? I ask because that prophecy of the Dark One that is shown to Graendel ( and then to us in the epilogue) sounds a lot like some of the Seanchan ones - and they seem to have a serious interest in the Wolf Lord( remember the Axe Or The Hammer, that the Seanchan General was looking to see which Perrin used before they made their alliance? They also are one of the few that makes specific reference to Mat,his foxes and his ravens.

Again just speculation, but I'm just curious.

[didymos]

Keep in mind that 30+ days before the Caemlyn attack Verin knows it's coming and puts her warning in that letter to Mat.

 

And she also says in that letter that she has no clue when exactly they'd have left, but they should have enough time. Not would. Should. Her letter is simply written under the assumption that they'd already be on their way by the time Mat opened it. Maybe, but maybe not too, and no real way to know which.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Keep in mind that 30+ days before the Caemlyn attack Verin knows it's coming and puts her warning in that letter to Mat.

 

And she also says in that letter that she has no clue when exactly they'd have left, but they should have enough time. Not would. Should. Her letter is simply written under the assumption that they'd already be on their way by the time Mat opened it. Maybe, but maybe not too, and no real way to know which.

 

Well, she bargained for a minimum of 30 days before he'd go do anything else because she expected that the attack would have been launched by then. She thought she had him. Either he'd open the letter and destroy the Waygate, or he and the entire Band would still be there and counter the attack when it launched.

 

Instead of Mat and the entire Band, she gets Talmanes and half the Band. We've just gotta hope they're enough.

[Sharaman]

Keep in mind that 30+ days before the Caemlyn attack Verin knows it's coming and puts her warning in that letter to Mat.

 

And she also says in that letter that she has no clue when exactly they'd have left, but they should have enough time. Not would. Should. Her letter is simply written under the assumption that they'd already be on their way by the time Mat opened it. Maybe, but maybe not too, and no real way to know which.

 

Well, she bargained for a minimum of 30 days before he'd go do anything else because she expected that the attack would have been launched by then. She thought she had him. Either he'd open the letter and destroy the Waygate, or he and the entire Band would still be there and counter the attack when it launched.

 

Instead of Mat and the entire Band, she gets Talmanes and half the Band. We've just gotta hope they're enough.

Less - 1/2 the band is with Daerid somewhere in Murandy and I'm wondering wheteh they've dropped out of the story or been turned into Demandred's tools.

Some of the Band went to Carhein with Elayne and then to FoMerri.

Talmanes has some Bandsmen and some mercs., plus bits of the Andoran army.

[nolirion]

Not having the time to read the previous 12 pages, let me toss my theory out here.

 

Rand goes to the BT to take care of Taim.

 

Unknown to Rand, the Dreamspike is in effect around the BT.

 

Rand gets captured/trapped/in danger.

 

Perrin (who has experience with Dreamspikes) goes and save Rand for the 2nd time, fulfilling the prophecy.

 

 

This would be a mute point if Rand can still use the True Power and the BT Dreamspike doesn't block True Power Travelling.

He know a Dreamspike is around the BT

[Bob T Dwarf]

Less - 1/2 the band is with Daerid somewhere in Murandy and I'm wondering wheteh they've dropped out of the story or been turned into Demandred's tools.

Some of the Band went to Carhein with Elayne and then to FoMerri.

Talmanes has some Bandsmen and some mercs., plus bits of the Andoran army.

 

Nope. The whole Band left Murandy and was back together again. Daerid took some to Cairhien, but the rest are with Talmanes outside of Caemlyn.

[PatsNats28]

Ah, right you are, I mis-remembered. Sorry about that.

 

Just like Roger Clemens? ;)

[PatsNats28]

Was anyone else really freaked out by what happened to Tarna? She was converted to the Dark, right? Would not want to be at the BT then...

[RelentlessAttack]

I think to some extent, Androl's people will have to fight their way free. To me, since from perrin it may be possible travel between two points within the dreamspike, I wonder if they could all ambush one group of perimeter guards at once, and try to fight their way free to the salidar AS for help, from there gateways could work

[Sharaman]

I think to some extent, Androl's people will have to fight their way free. To me, since from perrin it may be possible travel between two points within the dreamspike, I wonder if they could all ambush one group of perimeter guards at once, and try to fight their way free to the salidar AS for help, from there gateways could work

Only possible to Shift under the Dome in TAR and so far as we know, there is zero TAR ability/ experience / ter'angreal in the BT.

They also cannot enter TAR through a Gate, they have to dream their way in.

A physical assault in real-space or somebody sneaking out past the perimeter perhaps?

Otherwise, LTT who has figured out what the problem is, and Perrin, Logain, etc, will have to force their way in.

[TheAngryDruid]

Good discussion here.

 

Regarding Taim/Ishy and Mr. Ares' nice rebuttal. I'd say this: regarding the Sigil, the fact that Taim uses a sigil unrelated to Moridin is not the point, the fact that Taim uses the same sigil as Be'lal and Sammael, and with a more costly metal (gold instead of steel or silver) is. This indicates Forsaken status, and that he outranks Be'lal and Sammael. We know the Shadows other great general, Demandred, is NOT Taim. I thought this part of your rebuttal was fairly weak. As was the "he's just imitating" the red & black. Maybe he is a student, but that doesn't explain his access to the dreamspike. Or his aura that suggests TP usage. Something we've only seen Ishy/Moridin, Rand, and Graendal use (and maybe an instant from Aginor?).

 

Anyway, I guess we'll see.

 

About Emarin, my wilder fancies have soundly been debunked. As someone else said, I think he is Algarin. The descriptions match.

 

I saw someone on TL posted something saying BS said the timeline at the BT was a little behind (Naeff should have arrived by the Day of the Meeting, or on that day). So maybe we'll get some action there. They, and the AS camped outside the BT, will surely notice Caemlyn being attacked. DF will do nothing. LF will want to leave to defend the city against Trollocs. Can't hide sides at that point.

 

On Logain, it seems that Rand doesn't know where he is. Androl certainly doesn't.

[everetc]

Also, don't forget Taim goes out on personal recruiting missions. It isn't as if he is around all the time anyway. That leaves a HUGE amount of time for him to be back in Moridin persona.

[fox6271]

I have not seen much discussion about Rands actions when he was offscreen in this book. After leaving the White Tower and before showing up in Tear Min believes that he is in Andor for three days. Do you think he was in the Black Tower? If so what do you think he was doing there?

[Jyxxer]

I'm not so much worried about someone using Taim as I am now curious if he was someone trained by Forsaken, or if he was a male channeler turned against his will. All of the creepy half smiles that the newly turned have, kind of remind me of Taim. I don't think he smiled until Rand chose Dashiva in Crown of Swords.

 

I think that Taim was happy, not surprised or angry that Rand chose Dashiva. He says the he would rather have put Rochaid or that lot with him, but he doesn't try real hard. Perrin says he smells mad, but he was always pissed.

[Ghalleon]

Slayer made an attempt to kill Rand and MIn at the Inn in Far Madding at the behest of a heavily disguised patron. Likely Aran'gar.

 

Just for clarification, wasn't Slayer trying to kill Lan and Nyn, since I seem to recall him saying that he would've liked to have killed his nephew and the wench? I also thought the benefactor was Moridin. My memory is slightly foggy there, so i could well be wrong.

[Ghalleon]

Just adding another thought:

 

I wonder if the anyone in the BT has a similar situation s that of Verin's i.e. they were given a choice of either swearing to the Dark or being killed after possibly enduring horrific torture? I suppose it could also be a case of semantics, I always equated "forcibly turned" as 13x13 turned, not " swear or else we'll kill you". It would make a big difference, since being 13x13 turned seems to offer little hope of turning back, whereas the latter may offer a way out, since oaths to teh Dragon supersedes everything ( perhaps even moreso that he is Light Rand, but I don't know how that would affect oaths to the Dark One).

 

As for Dashiva, does anyone know when he started to drywash his hands? That seems to be a big "tell", but I can't recall offhand if he was always doing that or if he started it after he was already with Rand.

[Guest]

Just adding another thought:

 

I wonder if the anyone in the BT has a similar situation s that of Verin's i.e. they were given a choice of either swearing to the Dark or being killed after possibly enduring horrific torture? I suppose it could also be a case of semantics, I always equated "forcibly turned" as 13x13 turned, not " swear or else we'll kill you". It would make a big difference, since being 13x13 turned seems to offer little hope of turning back, whereas the latter may offer a way out, since oaths to teh Dragon supersedes everything ( perhaps even moreso that he is Light Rand, but I don't know how that would affect oaths to the Dark One).

 

As for Dashiva, does anyone know when he started to drywash his hands? That seems to be a big "tell", but I can't recall offhand if he was always doing that or if he started it after he was already with Rand.

 

also, i wouldnt rule out the power of psychology. Remember, a person giving up his whole life to come to the black tower to learn, finding out he wont get full asha'man unless he sides with the head-honcho. i bet a great number of ppl are with taim only for the reason of gaining the dragon-pin.

[Jeangray]

DF will do nothing. LF will want to leave to defend the city against Trollocs. Can't hide sides at that point.

 

It would make more sense to me if DFs went to help the Trollocs. I agree that time of hiding is at an end and by having Asha'man in full uniform, with dragon pins et al. openly side with the Shadow, the Dark Forces would score an important propaganda victory as well as military one.

[Guest]

DF will do nothing. LF will want to leave to defend the city against Trollocs. Can't hide sides at that point.

 

It would make more sense to me if DFs went to help the Trollocs. I agree that time of hiding is at an end and by having Asha'man in full uniform, with dragon pins et al. openly side with the Shadow, the Dark Forces would score an important propaganda victory as well as military one.

 

i agree, i would like to see that overnight a portion of the lights forces disappears and it is concluded they are DFs. Later they will come to the aid of the trollocs via ashaman and BA portals, possibly putting the lights forces at a disadvantage.

[waffle]

Maybe Emarin is Rand. Incognito. Nah, timelines don´t match up i think.

 

Probably Algarin then.