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Discuss Aviendha's Arc


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These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

 

I think it may have to do with Avi deciding to NOT have Rand's babies after her viewing in the columns. Also, what if Aviendha convinces the Aeil to return to thier Tinker roots?

 

This might be a little out there, but what if the oddity of Aviendha's children is that they are (at least 3) adopted from Elayne and Min? I thought it was odd that some of them were described with non-Aiel looks, actually looking a little like Elayne and Min. Whatever happened in that future Aviendha saw, it's clear a lot of our main characters--some with half millennium lifespans, are dead too soon. Maybe Aviendha took some orphans in as half sister, or sister wife, or whatever it is she is to Elayne and Min?

 

BS is really good at creating bleak universes. Mistborn and The Stormlight Archives are both worlds that are breaking being held together by some duct tape and a prayer.

 

 

Oddity was them being able to channel one power at very young age and all of them holding the source 24/7. That's odd. Being raised by someone else is not "Min-worthy" odd.

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I think that the solution will be for the Aiel to become the enforcers of the Dragon's Peace. It allows them to retain warrior traditions and gives them a use for their highly developed sense of honor. It gives them a purpose equal to the punishment of meeting their toh.

 

My second thought is that, if I were Egwene, and I heard about Avi's experience, I'd institute a new oath for every free channeler - "I will not use/hold/embrace saidar while held by an a'dam". At least that way you couldn't be used against your own people.

 

ETA Someone mentioned around page 3 or 4 about Eggy's vision of the seanchan woman handing her an a'dam. I didn't remember the last part, but I wonder how Eggy would feel about the a'dam remaining in use as corporal punishment for black ajah.

Edited by lillcheese
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As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Or not. In another fiction(Babylon 5 tv serie) knowing the future ensured that the future happened when character tried to change it...By trying to change it he caused it. Since seeing future is just fiction we can't know for sure would it be possible to change it if we knew it ;)

 

Another example of this is contemporary fiction...... That's So Raven.

 

1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

Why not? Show the future but not the process that leads to it is one valid and effective way to tell a story. In Babylon 5 you were shown glimpses of what happens in the end even as early as 1st episode 1st season...

 

Seriously, reference Babylon 5 more. Haha :wink: kidding.

 

As mentioned, this scene was intense. However, after the initial shock wore off, I think that it cant happen. I mean, technically, it CAN happen. But looking at it from the perspective of writing, it is very smart. The end is near, the Light has gotten itself together (as far as is able) and they are ready. We know that Rand is going to at least seal the DO away again, defeat him somehow.1 Then this future is revealed, almost as bad as the DO winning.

 

1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??2

 

2. Seriously, if it did happen, there would be outrage.3

 

3. Something about it didnt seem right, the way it happened, everything just didnt really add up.

 

4. It is a masssssvie ploy to get readers to second guess everything.4 Which definitely worked. Now we are all terrified that this is actually what the future is going to be like. But i doubt it will really happen.

 

1How is it, exactly, that we know this? It's widely assumed that the Light will win at Tarmon Gaidon but only because its a genre standard in American fantasy (and fiction in general for that matter) for the good guys to win. Well, we all know RJ wasn't a "standard" writer. While it is likely that he ultimately intended the "good guys" to beat the "bad guys" it could come about in a way that COMPLETELY blindsides us. Maybe something like both sides wiping each other out and the few remaining people starting with a blank slate. Anyway, my point is that we don't know Rand is going to defeat the DO.

 

2Perhaps because people like you would assume that the existence of the vision implied that this particular future could be averted. Or maybe, like Babylon dude said, trying to prevent this future will ensure that it happens (although I think this is unlikely). I am also of the mind that Aviendha's second trip through the columns was a possible future or maybe one that current events are likely to bring about. But I don't assume that it's a certainty that it won't happen.(By the way, when I say "people like you" I don't mean stupid/ignorant/certain-discriminated-against-race/or anything else derogatory... Just people with your particular mind set.)

 

3Umm... Who cares?.... Well, obviously the said "outraged" people. But still, story telling isn't about satisfying the readers' wishes. It's about reflecting situations and emotions in the real world that the reader can relate to, albeit sometimes on a much grander scale. After all, the "good guys" don't always win in real life. Why should they in fiction? Some of Shakespeare's greatest plays were tragedies.

 

4Of COURSE it's meant to get the readers second guessing preconceived notions about the conclusion of the series. For instance, maybe when Aviendha tries to prevent this particular future (as she seems to be determined to do) she will ensure the destruction of the forces of the Light. It seems like a lot of the Aiel degradation happens because of Rand's submission to the Crystal Throne and the absence of he and his groupies (Aviendha, Elayne, et al) as guides in the raising of their offspring (Well, this second part is just IMO... Which is not humble in the least).

 

Anyway, I've lost track of all the points I was trying to make and have possibly let this post descend into incoherent babble. I'm trying to work on an extremely busy night at the same time as catching up on all these posts. Surprised that I had time to rant this much. Sorry if I've raised points that were already brought up at other points... I haven't had time to read this entire thread yet.

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The future Avi saw is going to happen. The world isn't going to stay as it was in the Third Age after the Last Battle. An Age is defined my more than just an ending and beginning point, but by a restructuring of the world. Nicola's foretelling says that the world is not done with battle. And if Randland wins, what else is going to change? I questioned the purpose of Artur Hawkwing nearly conquering the world and leaving those armies, but really, this is why. It makes sense now.

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But in the future that she saw there wasn't any battle going on. Just small skirmishes between the Aiel and Seanchan. Everyone else was still following the Dragons Peace, until the Aiel tricked the queen into breaking the peace that is.

 

Imo Nicholas fortelling implies that there would still be battles fought as soon after TG as days, not decades.

Edited by f3llyn
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For many, many fans of the WoT, Chapter 48:Near Avendesora and Chapter 49: Court of the Sun were the most disturbing, thought-provoking moments of Towers of Midnight. Was it a set future? How does the ter’angreal function? Did it always do this and no one knew? Did Aviendha do something to the machine, or did the Forsaken make it show her that, or was it the Jenn Aiel? Was it connected to Nakomi, the mysterious not-quite-Aiel Aviendha met on her journey to Rhiudan? Some have even posted that if the future Aviendha saw comes to pass, it would prevent them from re-reading the series. Many assume that Aviendha was shown this vision in order to prevent it. In the words of the always-entertaining Lee Corso; “Not so fast, my friends!” I’ll try to lay out my thoughts on this in as organized a fashion as possible. Some of this I’ve covered in other posts, other places, some of it I’ve changed my mind on after re-reading the pertinent passages. So, without any more preamble, here goes (most probably) nothing (of value!)

 

Was the ter’angreal working properly?

First off, I do not think anyone, including Aviendha, did anything to the ter’angreal to cause it to change it’s function. Aviendha herself was commenting on its vast immenseness and incomprehensibility, and she has an innate understand of how ter’angreal work, because of her Talent. Her POV makes it clear, incontrovertibly, that she did nothing to the ter’angreal with the OP. Therefore, she didn’t alter its functionality. All she did was touch the thing, and try to sense it with her innate Talent. No weaves were woven. I think the ter’angreal has always functioned this way. I just don’t think anyone who has gone through it a second time has ever survived what they’ve seen. I don’t think any Aiel who hadn’t traveled out of the Three-Fold Land with Rand could have possibly accepted that future. So that leads to the next obvious question. If the ter’angreal was functioning properly...

 

Was Aviendha’s vision of a fixed future?

I had stated in a previous post that I didn’t think there were fixed futures in the WoT. After further thought, I realized how stupid that viewpoint actually is. Rand is fulfilling prophecies, Min has her visions that always come to pass, and many of them are not of the if/then variety. The future in the WoT is fixed, minus the possibility of the DO unraveling the Pattern. So yes, of course there is a fixed future in the WoT. Yoda was wrong. This doesn’t really answer the question though. We want to know if what Aviendha saw was real. The short answer? We’ll never know. Avi said it herself:

 

“Is it destined?” she asked. “Can we change it?”
There was no answer, of course. --ToM Ch.49

But it could be a real future, and maybe even the most likely given what we know.

 

An Age of Legends, or an Age of Reason?

One of the many interesting discussions we’ve had over the years as a community deals with which Spoke of the Wheel our own Age represents. I’ve always held that the Information Age is the Fifth Age on the wheel. The Fouth Age would be the Post-Crucifixion through the early 20th century... maybe all the way through WWII. The Third Age, our cycle’s compliment to the age Rand’s story takes place in, would be from the end of the Ice Age (Beginning of our recorded history) to the death of Christ. The AoL equivalent, our Second Age, would be where all of our Ice Age High civilization myths come from, like Atlantis, etc. And yes, I realize the technology doesn’t line up. But I think the Pattern can be similar without the same level of technology. I get the Third Age thoughts because the core of our myths in Christ, Odin, Thor and other myths from that time period are being played out in the 3rd Age.

 

The reason I bring this up is because Aviendha’s first vision of the future, the one that’s farthest out, bears a striking resemblance to the 19th century American Frontier. Railroads, rifles, electricity, and most of all no channeling. Eventually, the Wheel will spin around to this, and it needs to happen rather quickly, in order for magic to be considered hogwash in the Fifth Age. What better, quicker, or more effective method than the Seanchan?

 

Weapons of power, not of the Power

Working backward in the visions, it appears that the Seanchan were using da’mane up to vision 4. In visions 1, 2 and 3, there is no reference of the Power amongst the Aiel, and when attacked by the Seanchan, only conventional weapons, including their new hiss-staves, which sound like muskets to me, are used. A minimum of 60 years pass between the birth of Aviendha’s children and when Caemlyn enters the war. At some point after that (decades, is what the text says), the Seanchan acquire the dragons and gunpowder. 20 years after that, the Aiel decide to head back to the waste. So this war lasts at least 80 years, but it could be as long as 120 years, if decades means up to 40 years. Since Ladalin is an old woman, I’m inclined to think it is the latter. We have no frame of reference to know how long passes between Ladalin’s POV and Tava’s POV. But in that time, the Aiel have chosen to not even dress like Aiel, they have been so hunted, there are no more Holds, etc... so a long time. Long enough for hand held rifles to become common enough to make da’mane less relevant to the Seanchan military. After all, anyone can wield a rifle.

 

I’ve wandered a bit here. My point is that 200-300 years have passed by the time the Seanchan destroy the secret Hold in the Waste, effectively ending the Aiel as a people. This is not quite long enough for all da’mane to die off, but then again, we don’t really know how long the Aiel were running in the Waste. It’s possible that by this time there are very, very few channelers left. Apparently the Aiel hardly had any when they went back to the Waste.

 

Why so few channelers left? Once the Seanchan have collared every single Sparker they can find (and through hand-held munitions have developed a way to replace their use as a military weapon), an inevitable process begins: the innate ability to touch the Source without training is bred out of the new Raven Empire. They have no way to effectively collar male channellers. So, no male da’mane. Who would sleep with a da’mane? They are considered to be sub-human. Eventually, the captured da’mane would die out. The ability to touch the source without training would be so rare as to become mythological. The ability to learn to channel would remain, but there would be no one to teach it. The occasional wilder would probably pop up from time to time, but like Nynaeve, would have no idea what they were doing. They wouldn’t even be able to see their own weaves, most of the time. This sets the stage nicely for an Age of Reason, followed by an Age of Information.

 

So if this is the real future, what in the heck happened to Aviendha, Rand, Elayne, Mat, and Perrin in this future?

One of the major obstacles presented to this theory is the absence of Channelers who should live until the first, if not even the second vision (working backwards). I really don’t see the problem here. In the first vision (chronologically), Padra and her siblings are somewhere between 20-30 years old. Padra is said to be 10 years younger than Ruarch’s son, who met Rand at Cold Rocks Hold before the LB (which must be when Rand first went to the waste, which was two years prior to the LB). It doesn’t say how old Ronam was then, just that he was a young child. But he was old enough to remember. So at least 5? So, at most Padra is conceived two years after the LB, so Padra’s POV occurs between 20 and 32 years after the LB. What happened to Perrin and all the rest... Especially Elayne and Avi, who should have long lives as channelers? Well, assuming everyone lives through the last battle, here’s a possible scenario.

 

Perrin - There is nothing in text to suggest that Perrin is not around during this scene. He would certainly be dead by the next one. The point is that Perrin, now that he will be a freaking Steward holding the two rivers in Rand’s name, is pretty meaningless once Elayne’s children take the throne. They will then control the two rivers, as has been pointed out by others. Elayne totally manipulated Perrin, folks. Good, he deserves it after torturing us with his stupidity for the better part of 12 years.

 

Mat - Padra mentions that Rhuarch respected Tuon, but Tuon’s reign was over. Over Mat’s dead body? Exactly. Maybe they left to consolidate the Homeland, won it back, then somehow got killed at a later date. At any rate, at some point in those 20 - 32 years, Mat and Tuon bite it. This is implied in text.

 

Aviendha and Elayne - Obviously they must live through the LB to bear children. I personally think this vision implies that Rand must lives through the LB in order to “leave” the Aiel, as Takai says in Vision 4. I personally think that Min, Aviendha and Elayne leave with Rand, and it has something to with Nicola’s prophecy of three ladies in a boat. Here’s the relevant Fortelling:

 

LoC,Ch14
- "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on
the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the
world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the
guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a
blade."

 

The phrasings of this Fortelling make it obvious to me that this a snapshot of the world after the Last Battle. So, at some point after the children are born, they all get on a boat and “leave”, Lord of the Rings-style (and of course, Arthurian legend-style). I’m sure there’s a reason for this, but I can’t imagine what it is. Guess I’ll have to RAFO. Or not, since this is probably after aMoL. At any rate, that can account for Avi and Elayne being gone.

 

Egwene and Nynaeve - This is a real problem, since Egwene, at least, has already made an agreement with the Wise Ones to send Aes Sedai apprentices there. Yet, the first time the White Tower is mentioned is in Vision 4, when the Aiel decide to leave for the Waste. Maybe we all get lucky and Egwene gets killed at TG? That would be a pleasant fiction! Nynaeve and Lan are the most likely to get killed in the final book. Nynaeve began this entire journey, as has been made abundantly clear, in order to protect the Two Rivers kids, but specifically Rand. She will be with him wielding Callandor. It is highly likely she will kick it protecting him in the last book. And Lan, too.

 

So, there we go, everyone accounted for in the visions, with the mysterious absence of the Aes Sedai floating around Wise Ones in the last vision. But that would all fall apart if Egwene dies at the LB.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by anthonypero
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I realized I left out a very important part of my argument. Following the Dragon out of the Waste will destroy the Aiel. Only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. This destruction will probably come after the last battle, and this vision shows it pretty clearly. So, how will the remnant be saved? Maybe Rand and Aviendha take some Aiel somewhere else? I don't know. But obviously there were waaaaaay too many Aiel left alive in Parda's vision to be considered a remnant.

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I liked your thoughts. One thing at the very beginning confused me though; you said:

 

"I think the ter’angreal has always functioned this way. I just don’t think anyone who has gone through it a second time has ever survived what they’ve seen."

 

But don't all prospective Wise Ones enter the ter'angreal twice?

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But don't all prospective Wise Ones enter the ter'angreal twice?

 

No. They go to Rhuidean twice: once for the rings, and again for the columns.

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Also, the "oddness" Min saw in Aviendha's children is obviously that they've been channeling as long as they can remember, rather than at 16-18 like everyone else in the history of the Wheel.

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I liked your thoughts. One thing at the very beginning confused me though; you said:

 

"I think the ter’angreal has always functioned this way. I just don’t think anyone who has gone through it a second time has ever survived what they’ve seen."

 

But don't all prospective Wise Ones enter the ter'angreal twice?

 

No, they don't. They are only allowed to enter once. The first trip to Rhiudan, they go through the circles, not the columns. Different ter'angreal.

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What's the deal with the Illuminated Ones, the Lightmakers? That doesn't seem anything like what the Seanchan are now.

 

Names change over time and Illuminated Ones might just refer to Seanchan nobility in place of The Blood. I think Lightmakers were only mentioned in the far future visions and I took that to mean the Seanchan no longer captured damane by this point. We know they're going to stop eventually, just not when.

 

The columns are not like the rings, which show all the possible outcomes of your future. They show what happened in the past and apparently what happens in the future, but these would be fixed events based on the current path that's being taken. I think what Aviendha saw was one possible path the Aiel might take and her simply knowing how it'll end for them will be enough for her to alter it entirely. There is one key thing that she doesn't have the power to change, though: the Wise One damane. If Rand doesn't find a way to set those free then the Aiel would undoubtedly go to war to take them back just as it happened in Aviendha's vision. So, she'll be heading to the Field of Merrilor too.

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What's the deal with the Illuminated Ones, the Lightmakers? That doesn't seem anything like what the Seanchan are now.

 

Names change over time and Illuminated Ones might just refer to Seanchan nobility in place of The Blood. I think Lightmakers were only mentioned in the far future visions and I took that to mean the Seanchan no longer captured damane by this point. We know they're going to stop eventually, just not when.

 

The columns are not like the rings, which show all the possible outcomes of your future. They show what happened in the past and apparently what happens in the future, but these would be fixed events based on the current path that's being taken. I think what Aviendha saw was one possible path the Aiel might take and her simply knowing how it'll end for them will be enough for her to alter it entirely. There is one key thing that she doesn't have the power to change, though: the Wise One damane. If Rand doesn't find a way to set those free then the Aiel would undoubtedly go to war to take them back just as it happened in Aviendha's vision. So, she'll be heading to the Field of Merrilor too.

 

Don't forget that according to Wise One prophecies revolving the Car'a'carn, the destruction of the Aiel is inevitable. Only a remnant of a remnant will be saved, and that's only a possiblity.

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You seem to have a few faulty assumptions: The cycle is 7 ages, our appears to have been the first age, so we have no indication as to how the 5th age will be. To flesh this out: The metal symbol in the palace in Tanchico is a Mercedes-Benz emblem. It even has the proper emotions attached to it (and the description of the metal properly describe aluminum). Also, the Gleeman's tales about the giants and the rockets of fire appear to be about the space race, or even a nuclear war.

 

Channelers do NOT need to have kids in order for channeling to stay prevalent, that was a myth that the WT fell for because they were too busy being arrogant and not actively recruiting. Once they started they filled the tower in a matter of months, much as the black tower did.

 

Those weapons reminded me of shocklances, since shocklances appear to have been similar to guns but used the power instead.

 

Nicola's foretelling does not reference after the last battle, the "great battle" it appears to be referring to the one currently raging over Caemlyn, or a future battle over the BT. The reasoning for this is because rand has to die before the last battle starts, according to how the prophesies have been interpreted.

 

Nyn can't die yet, at least not if one of the interpretations of Min's viewing of Lan is correct (the babe with the sword being he and Nyn's child).

 

I suspect that what she saw was the worst case scenario of how things can turn out. She was worried when she messed with the ter'angreal and I suspect that it showed her the worst possible outcome, because everything would have to go wrong for the Aiel for this future to happen. This future requires Mat, Tuon, Egwene, Rand, Avi, and Elayne to all be dead earlier, in the channeler's cases by centuries. I suspect the ter'angreal showed her the worst so she can create the best.

 

As for the names the Seanchan had, that is merely because of their massive technological boost over the Aiel, The Aiel consider their technology to be miraculous and come up with names like that for them.

 

Lightmakers: Literally, they have some form of ability to create light other than fire, probably glowbulbs, lighblubs, or something similar.

 

Illuminated Ones: Probably a reference to their massive tech leaps and apparent learning.

Edited by Torn Shadow
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My apologies for my last post. Just read something that provoked some thoughts at the beginning of the thread before I skipped to the end and didn't realize how far (relatively) off things had moved discussion-wise. Anyway, whole thread was TLDR so sorry if this has been brought up already (I'm sure it has) but I was thinking we should be talking about what the difference is between the first ter'angreal the Wise Ones pass through and Aviendha's second trip through the columns (aside from the obvious differences of hundreds of possible futures and just one and the fact that the columns jump decades at a time and the other ter'angreal seems to be more specific). Is the second column trip a more likely outcome? Is it certain? If so does it negate anything one might have seen in the first ter'angreal? Etc....

 

As an aside I want to add that, while I don't judge anybody (or try not to) for using them... I LOATHE the cutsie terms that have become so popular when referring to people/places/things in WOT. Particularly "Ishy" and "Randland". I don't know why.... Just hate them and they consistently make me cringe. Totally off topic but still... Just sayin.

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You seem to have a few faulty assumptions: The cycle is 7 ages, our appears to have been the first age, so we have no indication as to how the 5th age will be. To flesh this out: The metal symbol in the palace in Tanchico is a Mercedes-Benz emblem. It even has the proper emotions attached to it (and the description of the metal properly describe aluminum). Also, the Gleeman's tales about the giants and the rockets of fire appear to be about the space race, or even a nuclear war.

 

Channelers do NOT need to have kids in order for channeling to stay prevalent, that was a myth that the WT fell for because they were too busy being arrogant and not actively recruiting. Once they started they filled the tower in a matter of months, much as the black tower did.

 

Those weapons reminded me of shocklances, since shocklances appear to have been similar to guns but used the power instead.

 

Nicola's foretelling does not reference after the last battle, the "great battle" it appears to be referring to the one currently raging over Caemlyn, or a future battle over the BT. The reasoning for this is because rand has to die before the last battle starts, according to how the prophesies have been interpreted.

 

Nyn can't die yet, at least not if one of the interpretations of Min's viewing of Lan is correct (the babe with the sword being he and Nyn's child).

 

I suspect that what she saw was the worst case scenario of how things can turn out. She was worried when she messed with the ter'angreal and I suspect that it showed her the worst possible outcome, because everything would have to go wrong for the Aiel for this future to happen. This future requires Mat, Tuon, Egwene, Rand, Avi, and Elayne to all be dead earlier, in the channeler's cases by centuries. I suspect the ter'angreal showed her the worst so she can create the best.

 

As for the names the Seanchan had, that is merely because of their massive technological boost over the Aiel, The Aiel consider their technology to be miraculous and come up with names like that for them.

 

Lightmakers: Literally, they have some form of ability to create light other than fire, probably glowbulbs, lighblubs, or something similar.

 

Illuminated Ones: Probably a reference to their massive tech leaps and apparent learning.

 

Why do you assume that ours was the 1st age? How is your assumption less faulty than mine? Stories exist about previous ages up until that age comes again. They are just more twisted by time. THere is no reason to assume that the Mercedes Benz logo was from the 1st age and not the previous 5th age. Same goes for the stories that Thom tells. None of this prevents it being the 5th age rather than the 1st age, other than your opinion.

 

With people who can LEARN to channel. It is the Sparkers, those who will channel with or without training that are more rare and are in danger of being bred out.

 

Nicola's fortelling is your opinion, stated as fact. Unfortunately, it is not a fact. It is an opinion. Mine is currently just as valid as yours.

 

The babe with the sword is Lan himself.

 

I'm sorry that the weapons remind you of shocklances. Here's the description from the book:

 

_____________

 

"There was a hiss of sound--one of the Lightmaker weapons--and something popped against her back. It felt like she'd been hit with a small rock.

 

She collapsed, the pain suddenly sharp. The light faded slightly. She blinked, eyes adjusting even as she felt the life seeping out and around her hands.

....

Was that her blood? All over her hands, warm, like water..."

 

_____________

 

How does that sound like a shocklance? Sounds like a bullet hit her in the back. The hiss sound is the wick of a musket being lit. It hisses for about 1-2 seconds before firing.

 

Aviendha faultily assumes that the technology is like the AoL because she has no frame of reference to think otherwise. We do. That was a projectile weapon using gunpowder.

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Things will NOT survive the 7th age. In order for there to be a first age nothing must be remembered from the time before or it could not be the beginning. That alone discounts anything surviving from the previous 5th age. Not only that but myths and legends fade within a couple ages, there is a reason the second age is barely known, and the first age only has whispers about it. Therefore, our age = the first age.

 

Sparkers can't be bred out either, they are in fact less common due to the lack of channelers having children, but in over 3,000 of that happening in the wetlands they still exists, which invalidates that point since it wouldn't have been anywhere near 3,000 years based on the POV jumps.

 

Finally, it may be a musket, or a shocklance, unfortunately we have no idea which it could be so I won't argue this point further, it was irrelevant to my main point anyway.

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Things will NOT survive the 7th age. In order for there to be a first age nothing must be remembered from the time before or it could not be the beginning. That alone discounts anything surviving from the previous 5th age. Not only that but myths and legends fade within a couple ages, there is a reason the second age is barely known, and the first age only has whispers about it. Therefore, our age = the first age.

 

Sparkers can't be bred out either, they are in fact less common due to the lack of channelers having children, but in over 3,000 of that happening in the wetlands they still exists, which invalidates that point since it wouldn't have been anywhere near 3,000 years based on the POV jumps.

 

Finally, it may be a musket, or a shocklance, unfortunately we have no idea which it could be so I won't argue this point further, it was irrelevant to my main point anyway.

 

 

LOL.. Channeling is not inherited! Verin implied that culling men lead to imbalance (may be it somehow affected pattern or something)...her theory..but at the end of this age channelers are popping everywhere.

 

And my first though was it was a musket. Shocklance is more like a stun gun, with Power used for stunning or killing..

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Okay. This is my very first post on Dragonmount, so it is a thing of history.... And I haven't read through the entire 19 pages of posts on this thread, so forgive me if this has been said....

 

THE SEANCHAN ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF THE AIEL'S DESTRUCTION!! The Aiel's inability to culturally evolve and socially adapt to a wider, more peaceful 4th Age is why they become obsolete. Remember: their banishment to the Three-Fold Land after the AoL was to prepare them for the Last Battle,nothing more. The Pattern needed an immediate, hardened army of exceptional fighters for Rand to use as his spears. Yeah, I get that people have emotional affection for the Aiel, but really, besides being able to slaughter people, what is their culture good for? ...Seriously: think about it.... Even ji'e'toh, however cool, was a social mechanism to temper the warrior bloodlust and keep people in check. (the Shaido abandoned it and look what happened) ..... And in Aviendha's flash-forwards, we see an idle, bored group of frustrated people who no longer have a purpose, because besides fighting, they have no purpose..... So don't blame the Seanchan.....

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Aiel were not banished to 3-foldland. It was probably the only safe for Daishain Aiel with them being people of Dragon and all..

 

Okay, "banishment" was not the precise word to describe how they got there, but I am pretty sure it was described that way in the books at some point. Sorry: I'm not going to grind through thousands of page for a reference.... :tongue:

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My apologies for my last post. Just read something that provoked some thoughts at the beginning of the thread before I skipped to the end and didn't realize how far (relatively) off things had moved discussion-wise. Anyway, whole thread was TLDR so sorry if this has been brought up already (I'm sure it has) but I was thinking we should be talking about what the difference is between the first ter'angreal the Wise Ones pass through and Aviendha's second trip through the columns (aside from the obvious differences of hundreds of possible futures and just one and the fact that the columns jump decades at a time and the other ter'angreal seems to be more specific). Is the second column trip a more likely outcome? Is it certain? If so does it negate anything one might have seen in the first ter'angreal? Etc....

 

As an aside I want to add that, while I don't judge anybody (or try not to) for using them... I LOATHE the cutsie terms that have become so popular when referring to people/places/things in WOT. Particularly "Ishy" and "Randland". I don't know why.... Just hate them and they consistently make me cringe. Totally off topic but still... Just sayin.

Well, like you said, one gives hints about your future to help them make key decisions. And the other shows the past of their ancestors, and now their future ancestors as well. Though we don't know if the columns are broken now having fulfilled their ultimate use, will revert to their previous state of showing the past, or if they always did show the future upon entering a second time.

 

And I agree with you about the cutesy names.

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