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DEMANDRED'S ALTER EGO

grump

By grump
in Wheel of Time Books

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MahaRaj Apprentice

MahaRaj

Posted
Posted

It's altogether better to argue from evidence in the texts than from evidence outside of the texts.

 

Why? If it's coming from the author of the books, it's a fact. Period. Being in the actual books doesn't make it any "factier". You may prefer authors not provide information outside of the books, but using that info can't magically make an argument about matters of fact weaker.

 

Why? In general, because the author could be lying so as not to ruin his story. Or the author could change his mind, especially in the course of developing a tale over 20 years, because of story dynamics. Or because the author may realize that he's made a mistake during the course of story development, and needs to make a course correction. I'm not saying that happened -- it could be that RJ was very interested in helping fans guess the twists of his story without reading it.

 

But again, in general: if the text contradicts a past interview or verbal statement of the author's, there are many valid reasons to explain it. If the text contradicts itself, it's bad writing or editing. That's why the text is a stronger source than verbal statements.

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Guest

Guest

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"it is known" is a sentence used by a group of ppl in a series called a song of ice and fire. they say "it is known" after giving a fact about a certain thing, usually based on superstition and ignorance

Really? Which group? I don't remember that at all. Admittedly, the way GRRM's going, I'll forget who Arya is by the time I lay my hands on ADwD. Bran's already slipping from my mind, and I have a feeling that he's going to be a messiah of sorts.

 

the dothraki (horse-people) that daenerys marries into

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MahaRaj Apprentice

MahaRaj

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Posted

"it is known" is a sentence used by a group of ppl in a series called a song of ice and fire. they say "it is known" after giving a fact about a certain thing, usually based on superstition and ignorance

Really? Which group? I don't remember that at all. Admittedly, the way GRRM's going, I'll forget who Arya is by the time I lay my hands on ADwD. Bran's already slipping from my mind, and I have a feeling that he's going to be a messiah of sorts.

 

the dothraki (horse-people) that daenerys marries into

 

Whoops -- you're right, I was wrong about it being the Wildlings. I was thinking of the refrain, "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

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grump Collaborator

grump

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Hey you may be right, I just saw on another thread that he killed asmo. I am highly disappointed as I had slayer pegged for that. O well I will hold on to my dreams for a while anyway. Until some one shows me a stronger case against someone else.

 

Thanks the grump

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yoniy0 Mentor

yoniy0

Posted
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So, this is partly my fault for getting here this late, but you guys should all be aware that we DO NOT allow spoilers on this board. There's a separate board for that, and you could discuss ToM there to your heart's content.

This board, however, is completely spoiler free. If you encounter them, feel free to contact me (address in sig). Actually, I'll appreciate it if you do. Be warned - if you post spoilers here, it will earn you a temporary ban from DM.

 

@grump, it's clearly stated in many places on these boards that you're not to do what you did.

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Loony Theory Trolloc Newbie

Loony Theory Trolloc

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Ok guys, I'm going to debunk the truth about Demandred's alter ego. We had many hints and I used all of them to create the ultimate theory, not just proving that not only Demandred's alter ego is well known, but that RJ gave us some great hints that will help us to identify the real Demandred. Here we go:

 

Once upon a time the bore was still sealed, the DO was hanging out lazy – happy that no one tried to force him to rule the world or things like this, and only Ishamael had left the bore for a walk. Suddenly there was a familiar voice disturbing the DO's well earned break from taking over world domination.

 

Demandred: Hello, is somebody at home? (stumbles through the bore)

DO: (thinks: OH NO, NOT THAT GUY AGAIN – EVERYONE ELSE, BUT NOT DEMANDRED. COULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN ASMODEAN OR ONE OF MY CHICKS?)

HEY DEMANDRED, YOU'RE EARLY THIS AGE.

(thinks: PLEASE! PLEASE, DON NOT SAY IT!)

Demandred: I am the first one awake, ain't I? I have to be!

DO: (SIGHS) YOU ARE NOT, ISHAMAEL IS. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER – THERE IS ENOUGH WORK FOR BOTH OF YOU AND...

Demandred: (screams) NOOO, not again, and again and... That's not fair. But the dragon, he isn't reborn, is he?

DO: (SIGHS) HE IS REBORN, BUT...

Demandred: Curse you, Lews Therin! CURSE YOU!

DO: (thinks: I CAN'T STAND THIS ALL THE TIME TILL THE REOPENING OF THE BORE.)

HEY! I AM THE ONLY ONE TO SPEAK IN CAPITALS HERE! BUT OK, DEMANDRED, ARE YOU READY FOR A SPECIAL TASK – LEAVING THE BORE AS THE FIRST OF THE CHOSEN PERMANENTLY? IMAGINE, YOU WILL BE THE FIRST ONE, THE FIRST! BUT THIS TASK IS VERY DANGEROUS AND MAYBE A BIT UNCOMFORTABLE, TOO.

Demandred: (bouncing) I will be the first one? And someone else will be second? I will be the first! I'll do it, not matter what cost!

DO: WELL, CURRENTLY YOU CANNOT LEAVE THE BORE IN THIS BODY, SO I HAVE TO PUT YOU IN ANOTHER THAT WORKS.

(kills DEMANDRED with a thought and instantly grabs his soul)

 

Ishamael enters the scene.

 

Ishamael: Hey DO, what's up with Demandred, he's looking a bit odd.

DO: OH, NOTHING SERIOUS. HE WOKE UP AND I KILLED HIM, BECAUSE HE WAS SO ANNOYING. BUT NOW IT'S TIME FOR SOME VOODOO ACTION.

(WHISPERS something to Ishamael)

Ishamael: (with a big smile) Hilarious! I'll be back soon.

 

Ishamael leaves...

and comes back later with a bag over his shoulder.

 

Ishamael: I'm back, and I've got a present for you.

DO: (excited) A SURPRISE PRESENT? I LOVE SURPRISES AND I LOVE PRESENTS!

Ishamael: Uhm... sorry it's just what you requested.

(lays a small hairy body on the ground next to Demandred)

DO: (sad) ARE YOU SURE, THERE ISN'T ALSO A SURPRISE PRESENT IN YOUR BAG. (sniffs) ANYWAY, LET'S MAKE SOME VOODOO.

 

The DO and Ishamael perform an obscure voodoo ritual, which is absolutely unnecessary but great fun. Afterwards the DO transmigrates Demandred.

 

The badgers jumps up on his feat and sniffles.

 

Demandred: (now in the body of a badger) Hey, what happened? Why are you both grinning at me.

Ishamael takes out a hand mirror and holds it in front of Demandred's face

Demandred: Curse you both! That's not funny...

DO: SHUT UP DEMANDRED! YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED AND WHAT YOU DESERVED. NOW YOU ARE ABLE TO LEAVE THE BORE. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? I WILL TELL YOU WHERE TO FIND LEWS THERIN.

Demandred: (happy) You're awesome DO, I will conquer the world for you after killing Lews Therin. (sniffles)

DO: HERE WE GO... YOU WILL MEET THIS PEDDLER GUY NEAR THE TWO RIVERS, AND...

Demandred gallops out of the bore.

DO: I JUST WANTED TO TELL HIM TO STAY AWAY FROM SOME TROLLOC POTS, BUT THIS ISN'T MY PROBLEM ANYMORE...

 

We see Demandred the badger rushing through the blight, followed by a pack of worms...

On his travel to the Two Rivers Demandred experienced many memorable adventures and sometimes in his dreams he still hears a voice „Narg's smart, Narg loves badger meat.“ (Have you ever imagined a speaking badger trying to convince a Trolloc, that he's one of the chosen and to obey him instead of eating him?) But that's another story, certainly worth an outrigger novel.

 

When he arrived at the Two Rivers Demandred found out that peddlers don't obey to speaking badgers, too, and in the end he was looking for Lews Therin on his own. As usual the luck wasn't on Demandred's side: He was discovered by some local boys – Mat Cauthon and Dav Ayellin – and trapped in a bag. While this Cauthon guy seemingly left the Two Rivers, Dav kept his speaking badger in the bag, because you never know, when you could need a speaking badger (Mat didn't know that the badger could speak, because Demandred had an headache at this time). Demandred wasn't very happy about his situation, especially because he couldn't even convince Dav to obey, but Dav fed him good enough to get a bit plump and sometimes Dav even ruffled Demandred's fur.

 

So you see Demandred has been around all the time as Brandon stated, but his alter ego hasn't been on screen as RJ told us.

Now you ask yourself certainly: But who the heck is this Demandred guy at the Forsaken meetings? Well, a good question and now I have to reveal another great mystery to you: Taimandred is true!

Ishydin did not want that anyone discovers Demandred on his secret mission (although or maybe because he got lost) and so he freed a guy called Mazrim Taim, a third age channeler from Aes Sedai captivity and forced him to pretend to be Demandred at the Forsaken meetings. So Mazrim Taim pretended to be Demandred and Taimandred is true, but RJ didn't lie, when he told us, that Demandred was never posing as Mazrim Taim.

 

And by the way: Ishydin did not forget about Demandred and his mission. When he got lost at the Two Rivers he sent Slayer and a bunch of Trollocs to look for him and to rescue him if he was captured (he sent them before he was killed in TDR). As we all know Slayer wasn't able to rescue Demandred (come on, you don't think he was looking for Fain, do you?) and as Ishy had died meanwhile, no one (expect the DO and Slayer – who both were happy to get rid of Demandred) knew of Demandred's fate.

 

So far... maybe I can later enlighten Demandred's purpose in the Last Battle...

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Jblaylock Collaborator

Jblaylock

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Ok guys, I'm going to debunk the truth about Demandred's alter ego. We had many hints and I used all of them to create the ultimate theory, not just proving that not only Demandred's alter ego is well known, but that RJ gave us some great hints that will help us to identify the real Demandred. Here we go:

 

Once upon a time the bore was still sealed, the DO was hanging out lazy – happy that no one tried to force him to rule the world or things like this, and only Ishamael had left the bore for a walk. Suddenly there was a familiar voice disturbing the DO's well earned break from taking over world domination.

 

Demandred: Hello, is somebody at home? (stumbles through the bore)

DO: (thinks: OH NO, NOT THAT GUY AGAIN – EVERYONE ELSE, BUT NOT DEMANDRED. COULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN ASMODEAN OR ONE OF MY CHICKS?)

HEY DEMANDRED, YOU'RE EARLY THIS AGE.

(thinks: PLEASE! PLEASE, DON NOT SAY IT!)

Demandred: I am the first one awake, ain't I? I have to be!

DO: (SIGHS) YOU ARE NOT, ISHAMAEL IS. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER – THERE IS ENOUGH WORK FOR BOTH OF YOU AND...

Demandred: (screams) NOOO, not again, and again and... That's not fair. But the dragon, he isn't reborn, is he?

DO: (SIGHS) HE IS REBORN, BUT...

Demandred: Curse you, Lews Therin! CURSE YOU!

DO: (thinks: I CAN'T STAND THIS ALL THE TIME TILL THE REOPENING OF THE BORE.)

HEY! I AM THE ONLY ONE TO SPEAK IN CAPITALS HERE! BUT OK, DEMANDRED, ARE YOU READY FOR A SPECIAL TASK – LEAVING THE BORE AS THE FIRST OF THE CHOSEN PERMANENTLY? IMAGINE, YOU WILL BE THE FIRST ONE, THE FIRST! BUT THIS TASK IS VERY DANGEROUS AND MAYBE A BIT UNCOMFORTABLE, TOO.

Demandred: (bouncing) I will be the first one? And someone else will be second? I will be the first! I'll do it, not matter what cost!

DO: WELL, CURRENTLY YOU CANNOT LEAVE THE BORE IN THIS BODY, SO I HAVE TO PUT YOU IN ANOTHER THAT WORKS.

(kills DEMANDRED with a thought and instantly grabs his soul)

 

Ishamael enters the scene.

 

Ishamael: Hey DO, what's up with Demandred, he's looking a bit odd.

DO: OH, NOTHING SERIOUS. HE WOKE UP AND I KILLED HIM, BECAUSE HE WAS SO ANNOYING. BUT NOW IT'S TIME FOR SOME VOODOO ACTION.

(WHISPERS something to Ishamael)

Ishamael: (with a big smile) Hilarious! I'll be back soon.

 

Ishamael leaves...

and comes back later with a bag over his shoulder.

 

Ishamael: I'm back, and I've got a present for you.

DO: (excited) A SURPRISE PRESENT? I LOVE SURPRISES AND I LOVE PRESENTS!

Ishamael: Uhm... sorry it's just what you requested.

(lays a small hairy body on the ground next to Demandred)

DO: (sad) ARE YOU SURE, THERE ISN'T ALSO A SURPRISE PRESENT IN YOUR BAG. (sniffs) ANYWAY, LET'S MAKE SOME VOODOO.

 

The DO and Ishamael perform an obscure voodoo ritual, which is absolutely unnecessary but great fun. Afterwards the DO transmigrates Demandred.

 

The badgers jumps up on his feat and sniffles.

 

Demandred: (now in the body of a badger) Hey, what happened? Why are you both grinning at me.

Ishamael takes out a hand mirror and holds it in front of Demandred's face

Demandred: Curse you both! That's not funny...

DO: SHUT UP DEMANDRED! YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED AND WHAT YOU DESERVED. NOW YOU ARE ABLE TO LEAVE THE BORE. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? I WILL TELL YOU WHERE TO FIND LEWS THERIN.

Demandred: (happy) You're awesome DO, I will conquer the world for you after killing Lews Therin. (sniffles)

DO: HERE WE GO... YOU WILL MEET THIS PEDDLER GUY NEAR THE TWO RIVERS, AND...

Demandred gallops out of the bore.

DO: I JUST WANTED TO TELL HIM TO STAY AWAY FROM SOME TROLLOC POTS, BUT THIS ISN'T MY PROBLEM ANYMORE...

 

We see Demandred the badger rushing through the blight, followed by a pack of worms...

On his travel to the Two Rivers Demandred experienced many memorable adventures and sometimes in his dreams he still hears a voice „Narg's smart, Narg loves badger meat.“ (Have you ever imagined a speaking badger trying to convince a Trolloc, that he's one of the chosen and to obey him instead of eating him?) But that's another story, certainly worth an outrigger novel.

 

When he arrived at the Two Rivers Demandred found out that peddlers don't obey to speaking badgers, too, and in the end he was looking for Lews Therin on his own. As usual the luck wasn't on Demandred's side: He was discovered by some local boys – Mat Cauthon and Dav Ayellin – and trapped in a bag. While this Cauthon guy seemingly left the Two Rivers, Dav kept his speaking badger in the bag, because you never know, when you could need a speaking badger (Mat didn't know that the badger could speak, because Demandred had an headache at this time). Demandred wasn't very happy about his situation, especially because he couldn't even convince Dav to obey, but Dav fed him good enough to get a bit plump and sometimes Dav even ruffled Demandred's fur.

 

So you see Demandred has been around all the time as Brandon stated, but his alter ego hasn't been on screen as RJ told us.

Now you ask yourself certainly: But who the heck is this Demandred guy at the Forsaken meetings? Well, a good question and now I have to reveal another great mystery to you: Taimandred is true!

Ishydin did not want that anyone discovers Demandred on his secret mission (although or maybe because he got lost) and so he freed a guy called Mazrim Taim, a third age channeler from Aes Sedai captivity and forced him to pretend to be Demandred at the Forsaken meetings. So Mazrim Taim pretended to be Demandred and Taimandred is true, but RJ didn't lie, when he told us, that Demandred was never posing as Mazrim Taim.

 

And by the way: Ishydin did not forget about Demandred and his mission. When he got lost at the Two Rivers he sent Slayer and a bunch of Trollocs to look for him and to rescue him if he was captured (he sent them before he was killed in TDR). As we all know Slayer wasn't able to rescue Demandred (come on, you don't think he was looking for Fain, do you?) and as Ishy had died meanwhile, no one (expect the DO and Slayer – who both were happy to get rid of Demandred) knew of Demandred's fate.

 

So far... maybe I can later enlighten Demandred's purpose in the Last Battle...

 

 

Greato scotto! ("great scott" in Japanese, ala Hiro from "Heroes") I think you've unraveled the great mystery.

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D'Selver Newbie

D'Selver

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One theory I've never seen posted is that RJ gave a perfectly truthful Aes Sedei answer in that Taim isn't Demandred but then the "Taim" that we see doesn't have to be the real "Taim" What if the real Taim is being held somewhere else. Mask of Mirrors anyone?

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Jblaylock Collaborator

Jblaylock

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One theory I've never seen posted is that RJ gave a perfectly truthful Aes Sedei answer in that Taim isn't Demandred but then the "Taim" that we see doesn't have to be the real "Taim" What if the real Taim is being held somewhere else. Mask of Mirrors anyone?

 

I have said this many times. I have pointed out that RJ invented the Aes Sedai, and thus could easily give us the truth but not the truth we think it is. I have pointed out that all of the quotes people use as evidense are worded in ways that RJ CLEARLY avoided giving a straight forward answer to dismiss it. He could have said something like:

 

"Demandred is not Mazrim Taim, does not pretend to be Mazrim Taim, does not and has not ever disguised himself as Mazrim Taim, and has nothing to do with hiding his identity in a way related to Mazrim Taim; and Mazrim Taim is not Demandred, does not pretend to be Demandred, does not and has not ever disguised himself as Demandred, and has nothing to do with hiding his identity in a way related to Demandred whatsoever. The two are seperate charecters that have not disguised themselves in any way related to each other."

 

 

That would be a straight forward dismissal. But, nothing RJ has said comes even remotly close to giving any sort of answer similar to the answers given in that example response.

 

He's only said stuff like "Taim is not Demandred" or "Demandred is not pretending to be Taim" or stuff like that, which could be saying any number of things while misleading you to believe it's saying they aren't related.

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Jblaylock Collaborator

Jblaylock

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Now, let me add to my post up there that I personaly do not really think Demandred is Taim, or vice versa, or anything like that. I'm just saying that RJ's quotes do not actualy dismiss the possibility like everyone seems to think they do.

 

Personaly, I think Taim and Moridin are related somehow. RJ made it too clear that Ishamael/Moridin's colors are red and black, and then in the Epilogue to KofD (I think) Taim's hideout is described "The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for ... red-and-black..."

 

Now, whether or not Taim and Moridin are one and the same, or pretending to be, I am not guessing. But, Taim at least works for Moridin, and is in close contact with him, I think. That's my opinion.

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didymos Collaborator

didymos

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That would be a straight forward dismissal. But, nothing RJ has said comes even remotly close to giving any sort of answer similar to the answers given in that example response.

 

Uh, did you forget the part about Demandred's alter-ego never appearing up to Knife of Dreams? He also said "Demandred has never posed as Taim", and that was in 2004, after CoT came out. Then there was the "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred" statement. Put them all together and it's definitive: dude is not and never has been Taim, nor pretended to be Taim.

 

Quotes here:

 

https://docs.google....pjqg_75dkr644fs

 

and here:

 

https://docs.google....jqg_827ctcr5pgg

 

Honestly, I just want the guy to show up and reveal his sooper sekrit ID at this point so this damn theory can just die the final death already. I'm glad you don't personally buy that he's Taim, but stop encouraging the stubborn and deluded!:tongue:

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