The Small Unnoticed Thing In Book Three

[Luckers]

Larry said over at RAFO.com that...

 

It's a surprising book in many ways...And I think Sanderson could have said "a small thing from The Dragon Reborn has repercussions in one major subplot in this book."

 

Terez said:

 

Does this refer to Brandon's 'small unnoticed detail in books 4-6'? Do you think it is more open to interpretation than we previously believed, or are you talking about something else?

 

Something else. But it completes a major character's arc spanning several volumes.

 

and I think I found something that may be it. That being said my call for the Big Unnoticed Thing didn't turn out so great, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Specifically, what I found is this...

 

“So you will give it up, then. It is the best thing for you. Come. Sit, and we will talk.”

 

Perrin turned to look at the speaker. The round tables scattered about the room were empty except for the lone man seated in a corner, in the shadows. The rest of the room seemed in some way hazy, almost an impression rather than a place, especially anything he was not looking at directly. He glanced back at the fire; it burned on a brick hearth, now. Somehow, none of it bothered him. It should. But he could not have said why.

 

The man beckoned, and Perrin walked closer to his table. A square table. The tables were square. Frowning, he reached out to finger the tabletop, but pulled his hand back. There were no lamps in that corner of the room, and despite the light elsewhere, the man and his table were almost hidden, nearly blended with the dimness.

 

Perrin had a feeling that he knew the man, but it was as vague as what he saw out of the corner of his eye. The fellow was in his middle years, handsome and too well dressed for a country inn, in dark, nearly black, velvets with white lace falls at his collar and cuffs. He sat stiffly, sometimes pressing a hand to his chest, as if moving hurt him. His dark eyes were fixed on Perrin’s face; they appeared like glistening points in the shadows.

 

“Give up what?” Perrin asked.

 

“That, of course.” The man nodded to the axe at Perrin’s waist. He sounded surprised, as if it were a conversation they had had before, an old argument taken up again.

 

Perrin had not realized the axe was there, had not felt the weight of it pulling at his belt. He ran a hand over the half-moon blade and the chick spike that balanced it. The steel felt - solid. More solid than anything else there. Maybe even more solid than he was himself. He kept his hand there, to hold onto something real.

 

“I have thought of it,” he said, “but I do not think I can. Not yet.” Not yet? The inn seemed to flicker,

and the murmur sounded again in his head. No! The murmur faded.

 

“No?” The man smiled, a cold smile. “You are a blacksmith, boy. And a good one, from what I hear. Your hands were made for a hammer, not an axe. Made to make things, not to kill. Go back to that before it is

too late.”

 

Perrin took a step back, keeping well in the light. “I don’t think so.”

 

“At least have a drink with me. To years past and years to come. Here, you will see things more clearly after.” The cup the man pushed across the table had not been there a moment before. It shone bright silver, and dark, blood-red wine filled it to the brim.

 

Perrin peered at the man’s face. Even to his sharp eyes, the shadows seemed to shroud the other man’s features like a Warder’s cloak. Darkness molded the man like a caress. There was something about the man’s eyes, something he thought he could remember if he tried hard enough. The murmur returned.

 

“No,” he said. He spoke to the soft sound inside his head, but when the man’s mouth tightened in anger, a flash of rage suppressed as soon as begun, he decided it would do for the wine as well. “I am not thirsty.”

 

He turned and started for the door. The fireplace was rounded river stones; a few long tables lined by benches filled the room. He suddenly wanted to be outside, anywhere away from this man.

 

“You will not have many chances,” the man said behind him in a hard voice. “Three threads woven together share one another’s doom. When one is cut, all are. Fate can kill you, if it does not do worse.”

 

Perrin felt a sudden heat against his back, rising then fading just as quickly, as if the doors of a huge smelting furnace had swung open and closed again. Startled, he turned back to the room. It was empty.

 

[tDR; 4, Shadows Sleeping]

 

The scene goes on for a while longer and it's probably worth reading it all for context, but that bit contains the significant part--do you see it yet? :D Well if you've missed it, that is Ishamael trying to convince Perrin to give up the axe.

 

Now I'd always assumed Perrin giving up the axe was a good thing, and resolved in CoT--but now its reappeared in Perrin's dreams in the prologue, and Ishamael apparently approved of him getting rid of it I'm not longer so sure. Finally, from further on in the chapter from tDR we have...

 

He stared into the mirror, a part of him not comprehending what he saw, another part accepting. A

gilded helmet, worked like a lion’s head, sat on his head as if it belonged there. Gold leaf covered his ornately hammered breastplate, and gold-work embellished the plate and mail on his arms and legs. Only the axe at his side was plain. A voice - his own - whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles. No! He wanted to take it off, throw it away. I can’t! There was a sound in his head, louder than a murmur, almost at the level of understanding.

 

[tDR; 4, Shadows Sleeping]

 

Could this be the resolution--that Perrin wasn't supposed to throw the axe away--I mean we know that him choosing the hammer was one of the signs of Tarmon Gai'don, but not whether it was a good sign. Perhaps in order to do what needs to be done he needs to reclaim the axe? Embrace his more violent side.

 

What do you guys think? Am I on to something?

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's a worthwhile question, but I think Ishy was trying to get him to forego the axe when he was because it was too early. None of the three had matured enough, learned enough. The Light was nowhere near ready.

 

Now, is a different story. Each of the three has experienced triumph and tragedy, gain and loss. Each has grown into the role that the Wheel created them for. Putting aside the axe and taking up the hammer now might be the right thing to do.

 

The hammer like the knife can be both a tool and a weapon. It's a much more versatile choice than an axe.

[Sid]

My opinion on this exchange and what we learn later ("when the Wolf King carries the Hammer, thus are the final days known.") is that Ishy wanted Perrin to give up his axe wayyyy before he was supposed to. Kind of like if Mat decided not to go to Rhuidean, "You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled." Perrin would have drifted away from his purpose in the pattern. Ishy might have tried to 'force Prophecy' and speed things up so the forces of the Light were in a state of complete unreadiness. I think Perrin made his choice at exactly the correct time that he had to (i.e. just before he met with the Seanchan), because it seems like the future's been teetering on the edge of a blade for so long now that any missteps would result in failure. Even things we perceive as failure now will turn out to be instrumental in the Lights chances of victory.

 

It's hard to say exactly what would have happened had Perrin drank the wine, or decided to give up the axe at this point in TDR. Would drinking the wine mean he was under compulsion of some sort, or even turned to the Dark One? I'm unsure why Ishamael and Lanfear didn't just kill Perrin (or Mat) when they had the opportunity at this point. It's clear that Rand is their guy, and the other two are important to his struggle towards the Last Battle.

 

I guess it just seems to me that Perrin has to be in the mindset of building something rather than destroying things at this point and from now on. The axe attitude won't work for whatever he's got to deal with in the future.

[waffle]

Kind of like if Mat decided not to go to Rhuidean, "You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

 

...

 

I'm unsure why Ishamael and Lanfear didn't just kill Perrin (or Mat) when they had the opportunity at this point.

 

Because Robert Jordan knew that killing off two of the coolest characters would be a bad move.

 

If villains everywhere got smart and started offing people before they became a problem, books and movies would be a lot more boring. Also shorter.

 

 

Anyhoo, regarding the finns telling Mat not to sidestep his fate. When Perrin left Tear in TSR(?) there was an earthquake and stuff. I always thought, that that was the taveren and pattern and Light know what else throwing a fit because Perrin was sidestepping his fate. Mat was told he was toast if he did that. But so far Lord Perrins (don´t call me that) decision has paid off. Two Rivers got saved. He did get married to Faile but that probably would of happened anyway. But that´s in the fourth book so i´m not really sure why i am talking about it here. Where is that BUT thread?

[Jong]

He threw away the hammer, but he never really gave up his attempts to rescue Faile. The problem is that Perrin thinks that if he throw away the Ax then its gone and done with. But I have thought for some time now that the weapons which Perrin uses (and he has used the Hammer as a weapon many times) was something of a red herring and that the real crux of the matter was the Ax vs Hammer as they exist as archetypes within Perrin himself. Is he acting like an Ax or a Hammer. Is he trying to protect and defend as a military leader an Ax? OR is he trying to build his homeland, create a family, and community as crative tool like the hammer? He has done both in the serries.

 

And now he is trying to break up the army before the last battle has even started because he doesn't want to lead people to near certain death. He wants to send them home to rebuild. But its not time for that yet.

[dwn]

Perhaps Perrin still gave up the axe before he should have.

 

"I told you once to keep that till you got to like using it too much. Did you start liking it? Back there?"

Perring shook his head hard. "No! Not that! But..."

 

[...]

 

"Only....I've heard Grady and Neald talk about how it is, holding the One Power. They say they feel more alive. I'm too frightened to spit, in a battle, but I feel more alive than any time except when I'm holding Faile."

 

-- Crossroads of Twilight, What Must Be Done, 599

 

So, Perrin throwing away the axe was not about abstaining from violence, but really about hiding from part of himself that he couldn't deal with. I'd say that also extends to how he tries to hide from and 'throw away' his wolf side, and his burgeoning leadership role. In that sense, yes, I think taking up the hammer is actually a very bad sign.

 

Perrin is someone who can stand up and fight because others can't. But he has--I don't know what to call it--an overzealous sense of doubt or something. He attributes every setback, every mistake, every shortcoming as divine proof of his unworthiness.

 

-- dwn

[Bob T Dwarf]

So, Perrin throwing away the axe was not about abstaining from violence, but really about hiding from part of himself that he couldn't deal with. I'd say that also extends to how he tries to hide from and 'throw away' his wolf side, and his burgeoning leadership role. In that sense, yes, I think taking up the hammer is actually a very bad sign.

 

Perrin is someone who can stand up and fight because others can't. But he has--I don't know what to call it--an overzealous sense of doubt or something. He attributes every setback, every mistake, every shortcoming as divine proof of his unworthiness.

 

-- dwn

 

Your last paragraph is answered by your second last paragraph. Perrin is looking for ANY excuse to quit having to make tough decisions. In his own way he's trying to run away from his fate every bit as much as Mat was.

 

Human. Understandable. Boooooooooooooooooooring in a fantasy hero. They're supposed to face evil with square-jawed, manly fortitude and GIT-R-DONE!.

 

I know Jordan was trying for what he called "high fantasy" but, ya just can't root for whiney babies. Especially babies that have been whining for 12 books and counting.

[rambling]

Whilst I agree with a lot of comments here, what struck me about the quote at the top of this thread was this part

 

“Three threads woven together share one another’s doom. When one is cut, all are. Fate can kill you, if it does not do worse.”

[tDR; 4, Shadows Sleeping]

 

Does this mean that they are connected on a deeper level than we expect? (bearing in mind the swirling colour visions)

Is he trying to be scary? Or does he just mean that all three must succeed to save the world?

(sorry to go somewhat off topic... wasn't sure where to post this )

[gambril]

Whilst I agree with a lot of comments here, what struck me about the quote at the top of this thread was this part

 

“Three threads woven together share one another’s doom. When one is cut, all are. Fate can kill you, if it does not do worse.”

[tDR; 4, Shadows Sleeping]

 

Does this mean that they are connected on a deeper level than we expect? (bearing in mind the swirling colour visions)

Is he trying to be scary? Or does he just mean that all three must succeed to save the world?

(sorry to go somewhat off topic... wasn't sure where to post this )

 

I've always just taken it to mean exactly what it says, if one of them fails, then they all will. Basically it's --- there's so much that's need to be put right that it's only even possible with 3 of them, if one of them dies or fails then there's just too much that they have to do for the other two to totally pick up another's slack. Like if there was no Perrin for instance, then Rand wouldn't have Ghealdean, Whitecloaks, the Wolves, and however the Morgase thing works out. Rand had no time to do all these things that Perrin has inadvertently done. Same deal with Mat, if he goes or fails/failed then Rand wouldn't have the best General for the Light and a tie to the Seanchan.

 

I've always seen the Perrin axe/hammer issue as being one of violence/destruction vs. leading/building. He took up the hammer in COT, but only literally and not figuratively. The connotations attached to the weapons was always implied to be a figurative one to me, Perrin just has up to this point interepted it a little more literally.

[Sentinel78]

It's a worthwhile question, but I think Ishy was trying to get him to forego the axe when he was because it was too early. None of the three had matured enough, learned enough. The Light was nowhere near ready.

 

Now, is a different story. Each of the three has experienced triumph and tragedy, gain and loss. Each has grown into the role that the Wheel created them for. Putting aside the axe and taking up the hammer now might be the right thing to do.

 

The hammer like the knife can be both a tool and a weapon. It's a much more versatile choice than an axe.

 

I agree with Bob T Dwarf. Moridin knew from the prophecies that the timing of the Last Battle would coincide with Perrin giving up the axe. He was trying to use that knowledge to force the Last Battle to come early, when the Light was unprepared, or perhaps to break prophecy itself via some type of paradox where if Perrin gave up the axe too early then other prophecies could not be fulfilled (BS recently indicated that any prophecies not being fulfilled means the Pattern is broken).

 

Verin's comment in tSR (Goldeneyes Chptr) also makes it seem that the issue with Perrin giving up the axe was timing, not that it didn't have to happen:

 

She shattered his moment of reverie. "Yes, you do. But you do not know what marrying Zarine Bashere means, do you?" She reached up to turn his axe in its loop on his belt, studying it. "When are you going to give this up for the hammer?"

 

I don't think Perrin's going back to the axe. What I'm starting to think of Perrin's 'role' is keeping the Light's factions united after Rand dies for the first time (probably at the end of ToM via a Moridin bodyswap)... Perrin is the only person who would be accepted by the Borderlanders (via marriage to Faile), he's a personal friend to the Amyrlin and Queen of Andor, respected by the Aiel, soon to be respected by the Whitecloaks and has had good dealings with the Seanchan. Everyone knows and likes Perrin.

 

Perrin 'taking up the Hammer' will be when he keeps the Light's forces welded together post Rand's death. Obviously this is just my opinion, which will likely be disproven in 6 days.

[Maji]

Because Robert Jordan knew that killing off two of the coolest characters would be a bad move.

 

Surely, you cannot mean Perrin is included in this comment... xD I loathe any Perrin chapter and ALWAYS look ahead to see how many changes there is til the next chapter that he does not have POV.

 

 

I have to agree with others that Ishy was probably trying to force prophecy early when the Light was in a state of unreadiness, (i.e. Rand not even really accepting he is the Dragon Reborn yet or even knowing how to channel at will or rather knowing what he is doing when he channels. Although he still might not know that but seems unlikely now that he remembers his past life as LTT).

[Cyf]

Personally, I think Perrin has to give up the axe for the hammer at a pivotal time. As in, during the viewing Min has where he's got to save Rand, or something. But hey, could be wrong. :)

[r4t5y6u7]

I'm sure this has been said before but I've always thought that Perrin's choice to pick up the hammer would been when/if he finally decides to follow the way of the leaf.

[Cyf]

Perhaps it's me, but I really and seriously hope not. The Way of the Leaf is an admirable belief, but just doesn't work unless the world supports it, at least for a protagonist right now. And at current times, it doesn't. Perrin taking the Way of the Leaf to my mind would be running from things again.

[Charlz Guybon]

Because Robert Jordan knew that killing off two of the coolest characters would be a bad move.

 

Surely, you cannot mean Perrin is included in this comment... xD I loathe any Perrin chapter and ALWAYS look ahead to see how many changes there is til the next chapter that he does not have POV.

 

 

 

Perrin was balls to the walls awesome in TSR.

[fborch]

Agreed. I went from not loving perrin in the first 5 books, to hating his guts. I hope ToM will get him back on track. Battle for Emonds field is easily among my favourite parts in the books.

[rambling]

Larry said over at RAFO.com that...

 

It's a surprising book in many ways...And I think Sanderson could have said "a small thing from The Dragon Reborn has repercussions in one major subplot in this book."

 

Terez said:

 

Does this refer to Brandon's 'small unnoticed detail in books 4-6'? Do you think it is more open to interpretation than we previously believed, or are you talking about something else?

 

Something else. But it completes a major character's arc spanning several volumes.

 

emphasis mine

 

Maybe I'm taking this too literally, but it sounds like this major character dies/is written out, in TOM.

Any chance of a link to the original? Did he say any more than that?

 

 

edit: I'm sooooooo bored of waiting for TOM. Can you tell?

[Cyf]

For those who have the book, just one question. This *is* stated in ToM, right? 'cause this and the other thread are driving me nuts. :) Don't have to say what it is of course and spoil us, but nevertheless.

[Dunedain Fal]

Agreed. I went from not loving perrin in the first 5 books, to hating his guts. I hope ToM will get him back on track. Battle for Emonds field is easily among my favourite parts in the books.

 

So was the Battle of Malden when he singlehandedly destroyed the Shaido force albeit with Seachan help but Seachan admitted that they would have turned back and come back with a bigger force and they expected to incur very heavy casualties. Perrin took Malden with the same force and incurred very light casaulties and managed to destroy that rabid Dragonsworn rabble.

 

So Perrin is still awesome. He is just going through a phase like Rand did.

[Arath Faringal]

So Perrin is still awesome. He is just going through a phase like Rand did.

 

I don't think it can be called a phase when he's been that way the entire series.

[didymos]

singlehandedly destroyed the Shaido force albeit with Seachan help

 

Ah, yes: having an entire army give you an assist. Why, that's the very definition of "singlehanded"!

[Cyf]

I don't think it can be called a phase when he's been that way the entire series.

 

I have to argue this. Perrin was interesting up to tFoH or so. Then, his storyline slowed down. The sad thing is, it would be interesting if it didn't feel like it was just in a holding action. I think Jordan knew he needed Perrin to act at one point, and didn't know where to put him till then. It'd have been better if he put Perrin someplace and didn't pick him up till necessary.

 

As for the 'army' comment: remember, Perrin was facing a /TON/ of Shaido Wise Ones. He created a plan that worked, and though outnumbered, they won pretty handily. This was badass. Just... it was in the middle of Perrin-wheel-spinning, so people ignore it. Even Tylee was impressed, and she's an experienced soldier.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As for the 'army' comment: remember, Perrin was facing a /TON/ of Shaido Wise Ones. He created a plan that worked, and though outnumbered, they won pretty handily. This was badass. Just... it was in the middle of Perrin-wheel-spinning, so people ignore it. Even Tylee was impressed, and she's an experienced soldier.

 

I don't ignore it. It was a wonderful accomplishment. Just not wonderful enough to make-up for all the Perrin suckitude that preceded it.

 

Jordan imbued Perrin with so much negative karma that it became impossible to root for him anymore. It's gonna take a LOT to change that. As of TGS, he wasn't there yet.

[dwn]

Jordan imbued Perrin with so much negative karma that it became impossible to root for him anymore. It's gonna take a LOT to change that. As of TGS, he wasn't there yet.

 

Rand, Mat and Perrin have all had to come to terms with their newly found status and responsibility. Rand went psychotic, Mat laughed it off and pretended it didn't exist, and Perrin constantly denies his own capability. I don't think Perrin is any worse off than the other two.

 

I tend to find Perrin's plotlines (and Elayne's, incidently), more enjoyable when I read his chapters consecutively. Sure it's been 12 years and 5 books, but Perrin's plot arc in Ghealdan and Altara hasn't been long enough to fill a whole book on its own.

 

-- dwn

[rambling]

Jordan imbued Perrin with so much negative karma that it became impossible to root for him anymore. It's gonna take a LOT to change that. As of TGS, he wasn't there yet.

 

Rand, Mat and Perrin have all had to come to terms with their newly found status and responsibility. Rand went psychotic, Mat laughed it off and pretended it didn't exist, and Perrin constantly denies his own capability. I don't think Perrin is any worse off than the other two.

 

I tend to find Perrin's plotlines (and Elayne's, incidently), more enjoyable when I read his chapters consecutively. Sure it's been 12 years and 5 books, but Perrin's plot arc in Ghealdan and Altara hasn't been long enough to fill a whole book on its own.

 

-- dwn

Have to agree there. Perrin is totally dull at the moment but I have every hope that he'll get back on form very soon. He's no worse than Rand at times - I found myself skimming most of the 'Oh, woe is me' Rand parts. It's not that there is nothing important to read there, or that it's unnecessary, or boring, or even badly written, it's just that this is fantasy fiction and I want to hurry to the epic action.

In the end I know that a book needs a bit of character development and always end up going back to re-read the sections I skimmed.