Discuss Prologue Through Chapter 45

[JenniferL]

I can't catch everything. =)

 

And yeah, I really wish I'd had more time to revision that article. I think I did it in just a couple hours. It'll get revised again when I update for ToM.

[Elend]

Here's the thing that baffles me about this Egwene argument and I don't think I've seen it mentioned, or least not often. Egwene doesn't know Rand anymore. The last time she saw him was what, LOC? Alot has happened to Rand since then that Egwene isn't aware of. She knows he was flippin nuts and starting to hear voices in his head. She knows about Dumai's Wells, but she doesn't know about Semi blowing his hand off or his mountain climbing expedition. She knows about the Cleansing, but only second hand. As far as she knows, this guy has finally lost it. We know Rand is right and is stable because we're able to be in his head and we know what he knows. I think she's wrong in her assumptions about Rand, but I understand why she's made those assumptions.

 

I also think Rand is playing her. He didn't tell her his plan or bring her into his confidence. I think he's letting her do the work of uniting the remaining nations for him. Dude barely has time to eat breakfast these days, much less be a diplomat. Much better to get Egwene to do it for him and leave him more time to go through his 12 Step program.

 

Pretty much agreed with everything here. I've been waiting for someone to say it for me so I don't have to type it all out!

 

Sometimes it just seems people want an excuse to hate Egwene.

[Terez]

I can't catch everything. =)

lol, sorry again. I wasn't trying to be a critic - more being excited that the foreshadowing goes back that far.

 

And yeah, I really wish I'd had more time to revision that article. I think I did it in just a couple hours. It'll get revised again when I update for ToM.

I would also think a reference to the Min viewing would be nice, but some people still think that refers to Lews Therin. I doubt it, because the wording is so similar (and this is more for the purpose of the current conversation than anything else, btw):

 

TITLE - A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 33 - A Bath

 

"The viewings?" She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and... " Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I - Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."

 

The 'one face' dream also uses the word 'merge'. And Rand's description also uses the word 'touch':

 

TITLE - Knife of Dreams

 

CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

 

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man’s face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse…

 

He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

 

 

If you don’t know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were… touching… the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction, to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too.

[JenniferL]

Right, and there are some legitamitely bitchy things she's done. I don't like how she treated Siuan after her rescue in TGS. And she has appalling taste in men (Gawyn? Seriously? He's terrible). But you can't blame her for not meta-gaming.

 

I think we as readers are inclined to view Rand very sympathetically because A) we know he's the main character and B) we spend so much time in his head in this series and Rand never thinks "Boy, I sound crazy!" He thinks he's perfectly rational, even when's flailing around in the mud and trying to kill his own soldiers. And that's the Rand that Egwene knows.

[dfchang]

Just because Rand and Moridin are merging doesn't mean that breaking the seals is a bad idea though.

 

 

We know as readers that Rand MUST break the Seals. Remember that we've had evidence the entire series that the Seals are eventually going to break anyway.

 

And since they are imperfect to begin with, they need to be broken so that the Bore can be sealed up right.

 

 

Perrin Aybara, who has none of the meta-knowledge we as readers do, intuitively understands this and shrugs: "Of course he needs to break them, duh, WTF else you going to do man??" Goes to show you again why the Perrin is EPIC. LoL.

 

Unless I'm totally confused, the implication I'm getting from Terez and Jennifer's posts is that Rand's desire to break the seals is not his own but rather Moridin's which I see no evidence of at all. I mean it's obvious the two are merging and there will be repercussions of this but at the same time I don't see how that makes breaking the seals bad. Not to mention, no one in the series understands this merging . . . maybe not even Rand and Moridin themselves.

 

Now, I can totally see Egwene's resistance to this idea because on the surface it is flipping crazy. But that's the beauty of it. You gotta think outside the box to get the job done and that's why Rand is a genius. He's crazy, yes, but he's a crazy GENIUS. :):)

 

Anyway, I think it is pretty hilarious because Egwene is going to show up ready to argue and debate and Rand is going to be like: "What are you talking about? I broke them 3 hours ago. We're here to talk about what y'all goin' to do for me so I'll actually go to Shayol Ghul to throw down with the Dark One now that the Bore's all open."

 

Also remember that it isn't the end of the world if the Bore is open. It was open for decades during the entire War of the Shadow and the Dark One didn't just jump out and beat everybody down.

 

I can also see Rand using the Seals to blackmail everybody into making peace. He'll go to Tuon and snap one of the seals in half and ask her if she wants to talk now. Then after everybody agrees, he could laugh and say "just kidding" and break them anyway.

 

I think there's great opportunity for some hilarity here but maybe that's just me . . . :)

 

Dennis

[Terez]

Just because Rand and Moridin are merging doesn't mean that breaking the seals is a bad idea though.

No, the fact that it will set the Dark One free is what makes it bad.

 

We know as readers that Rand MUST break the Seals

Excuse me? How exactly do we know this?

 

Remember that we've had evidence the entire series that the Seals are eventually going to break anyway.

Seals corroding and seals being forcefully broken...two completely different things.

 

Unless I'm totally confused, the implication I'm getting from Terez and Jennifer's posts is that Rand's desire to break the seals is not his own but rather Moridin's which I see no evidence of at all.

That is not surprising. Ask yourself...where did the idea come from?

 

Also remember that it isn't the end of the world if the Bore is open. It was open for decades during the entire War of the Shadow and the Dark One didn't just jump out and beat everybody down.

And before it was sealed - BEFORE it was sealed - the Dark One did not have nearly as much power to touch the world as he does now. What will happen when the seals are broken?

[Seminoles]

What about Callandor?

 

It has to be used with both the male and female power, and yet we are lead to believe perhaps their is an inherent flaw greater than just the limitation of it being needed to be used in a circle.

 

We learn of the dark prophecy book.

 

Now, I hate Egwene and think shes wrong..but, for the sake of discussion and screwing with our minds..what if shes right?

 

What if Callandor is the weapon of the dark one? What if the inherent flaw built in it is the draw to use both sides of the male and female halves to seal the bore, and in doing so ruin the One power for all, leaving everyone defenseless against the True power, i.e HIM.

 

I'm new to this and likely just 100000% off, but I had a few sam adams octoberfest and just felt like saying something =p

 

On a side note, I've been reading like 13 hours...and STILL no tower of ghenji?(sp). WTF!! I'm nearing out of pages, and beginning to be sad !!

 

Either way, the books been awesome so far. Thank you everyone who made the books possible!

[azrael.1289]

Here's the thing that baffles me about this Egwene argument and I don't think I've seen it mentioned, or least not often. Egwene doesn't know Rand anymore. The last time she saw him was what, LOC? Alot has happened to Rand since then that Egwene isn't aware of. She knows he was flippin nuts and starting to hear voices in his head. She knows about Dumai's Wells, but she doesn't know about Semi blowing his hand off or his mountain climbing expedition. She knows about the Cleansing, but only second hand. As far as she knows, this guy has finally lost it. We know Rand is right and is stable because star we're able to be in his head and we know what he knows. I think she's wrong in her assumptions about Rand, but I understand why she's made those assumptions.

 

I also think Rand is playing her. He didn't tell her his plan or bring her into his confidence. I think he's letting her do the work of uniting the remaining nations for him. Dude barely has time to eat breakfast these days, much less be a diplomat. Much better to get Egwene to do it for him and leave him more time to go through his 12 Step program.

You are absolutely correct. Egwene doesn't know Rand. But shouldn't she be aware that she doesn't really know Rand and try to figure out what's happening with him, why he is acting the way he is. He isn't just some random dude after all, he is the DR.

Also, instead of spending her resources trying to oppose Rand's 'plan', shouldn't she be spending it coming up with a better one if she thinks his is a bad one? seeing as how TG may already have started?

I haven't read the book, so if she is indeed doing those things, pardon my ignorance.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Just because Rand and Moridin are merging doesn't mean that breaking the seals is a bad idea though.

No, the fact that it will set the Dark One free is what makes it bad.

 

We know as readers that Rand MUST break the Seals

Excuse me? How exactly do we know this?

 

Cause Herid Fel said so. I rather doubt that the shadow sent the gholam to kill him if it was a wrong idea.

 

Remember that we've had evidence the entire series that the Seals are eventually going to break anyway.

Seals corroding and seals being forcefully broken...two completely different things.

 

Indeed, because if the seals continue to corrode the bore will have plenty of time to grow and will be all that much harder to seal again than if there is a clean break and Rand makes his move before immediately.

 

Mazrim Taim even gave Rand a seal or two if I remember correctly and considering that Taim is very likely to serve the shadow that makes you think why he gave them to Rand instead of to someone on the dark side, doesn't it? Afterall if it was in the interest of the DO as brittle as they are it should have been destroyed back then. In fact you may ask why no one on the dark side has ever tried to find the seals it's been ages since we got that comment of four men with hammers being able to free the DO and yet the shadow does not bother with them.

 

Unless I'm totally confused, the implication I'm getting from Terez and Jennifer's posts is that Rand's desire to break the seals is not his own but rather Moridin's which I see no evidence of at all.

That is not surprising. Ask yourself...where did the idea come from?

 

Herid Fel and prophecy of the light among others. So it really can't be attributed to Moridin only.

 

Also remember that it isn't the end of the world if the Bore is open. It was open for decades during the entire War of the Shadow and the Dark One didn't just jump out and beat everybody down.

And before it was sealed - BEFORE it was sealed - the Dark One did not have nearly as much power to touch the world as he does now. What will happen when the seals are broken?

 

Is there any evidence how the touch of the DO in the AoL compares to his now? Cause I really don't see any reason why the DO should have been weaker back then. To me it's just that mankind had much more power to resist his influence. There were ter'angreal in place which regulated the wheather constantly, they sung their crops which protected them from the influence of the DO to some extend and in general there were far better sanitary and hygenic conditions.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Also remember that it isn't the end of the world if the Bore is open. It was open for decades during the entire War of the Shadow and the Dark One didn't just jump out and beat everybody down.

And before it was sealed - BEFORE it was sealed - the Dark One did not have nearly as much power to touch the world as he does now. What will happen when the seals are broken?

 

Is there any evidence how the touch of the DO in the AoL compares to his now? Cause I really don't see any reason why the DO should have been weaker back then. To me it's just that mankind had much more power to resist his influence. There were ter'angreal in place which regulated the wheather constantly, they sung their crops which protected them from the influence of the DO to some extend and in general there were far better sanitary and hygenic conditions.

 

It is mentioned that the Bore was growing larger as time went on during the War of the Shadow, which allowed the Dark One to increase his influence in the world. I mean, for him to break free, the Bore has to grow some more, if not in the AoL he would already have been walking the earth.

[JenniferL]

I don't think Rand is getting this idea from his link with Moridin. I think Herid Fel gave it to him, along with some things he remembers as Lews Therin.

 

But yeah, Egwene doesn't know Rand anymore and doesn't know that she doesn't know him. We all know that Egwene tends to jump to conclusions about Rand in general, why would this be any different? She grew up with him, thought she'd marry him and just saw him not even a year ago. She has no reason to believe that he's substantially different in any way from what she saw then, which was a dude who's not all there anymore and was kind of a dolt when he was. And Rand didn't really do anything in ToM to change her opinion. He didn't lay out any reasons why this needed to be done or take her into his confidence. Instead he just says "This what I'ma gonna do. Try and stop me." Since I think Rand isn't doing his "ZOMG! I'm so paranoid!" schtick anymore and is withholding information from her because he doesn't trust her to do right, I am assuming that this is a deliberate manipulation of her. This Rand/Lews Therin gestalt entity seems to be pretty crafty, so it's not out of the question.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yup. Herid Fel with his "clear away the rubble".

 

The whole Taim thing is very confusing, though. There was no way that anyone could know or even intuit that he had a seal, so why give it to Rand if he is indeed Dark. Taking it to Shayol Ghul, or giving it to Demandred who was in charge at that time, I could see, but giving it to Rand???

 

Yes, the Dark has been trying to find the seals that Rand has. Recall the Forsaken Kaffe Klatsch before the Cleansing and at least one since where Moridin's instructions are to find the artifacts that Rand has but, only if necessary, kill him in the process. That's why Dobraine was attacked. Why Bashere's tent was ransacked. ( my bet is that this was Graendal and she was most interested in the access keys, but her agents wouldn't have left any seals behind )

 

Ultimately, in terms of how the story has been setup, it doesn't matter whether Rand is sane or the Mad Hatter, whether he is just Rand or Randidin, he's still the Dragon Reborn and everything, Dreams, Viewings, Foretellings, Legends, you name it says it's the Dragon Reborn who shall "confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light."

 

Unless Egwene or others are thinking it's all going to be as simple as throwing Rand into the maw of a volcano like some Polynesian Legend, they gotta let the guy do it his way if they want to survive. That much, at least, seems self evident.

 

As to whether Rand has a plan beyond breaking the seals, we just don't know. We know he's been thinking about the problem for a good long time. I'm pretty sure we haven't been privy to every thought he's ever had, either. For now, I'm thinking the authors just haven't let us in on what his plan is. They gotta keep some surprises up their sleeves.

[Blademaster56]

Yup. Herid Fel with his "clear away the rubble".

 

I think you should read you're signature ;)

Just because the readers think that this means break the seals doesn't mean that's what it does mean.

 

However, it could. We'll find out in another year!

[Terez]

Oh, Herid Fel certainly meant that he should break the seals with 'clear the rubble'. But before that, Fel actually freaked out when Rand suggested it. He said only a madman would want to break the seals. And then, next we hear, Fel is dead - a message - and all Rand has is this little note scribbled on a piece of paper - like an afterthought. Clear the rubble. Rand is supposed to think that Fel was killed because he was going to talk to him about that. WE are supposed to think that. That is why everyone has been thinking all along that Rand will have to break the seals.

 

But Fel always showed signs of Compulsion, didn't he? And his books...who writes books about philosophy in the late Third Age? Who even cares about such things outside the Tower? And it just so happens that none of Ishamael's books about philosophy have survived. We only know the titles, and titles can be changed. How similar is Reason and Unreason - Fel's most often-mentioned book - to Disassembly of Reason (one of Ishamael's books)?

 

The idea to break the seals came when Rand touched the seal. We know that, when the seals are still intact, you can feel the evil coming from them. It's so bad that Nynaeve shoved her seal as deep into her wagon storage compartment as it would go.

 

TITLE - Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

 

Three broken. Three in his possession. Where was the seventh? Only four seals stood between humankind and the Dark One. Four, if the last was still whole. Only four, standing between humankind and the Last Battle. How well did they still hold, weakened as they were?

 

Lews Therin’s voice came up like thunder. Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it...

 

Rand shook with the effort of fighting that voice down, forcing away a mist that clung like spiderwebs. His muscles ached as if he wrestled with a man of flesh, a giant. Handful by handful he stuffed the fog that was Lews Therin into the deepest crannies, the deepest shadows, he could find in his mind.

 

Abruptly he heard the words he was muttering hoarsely. "Must break it now break them all break it break it break it." Abruptly he realized he had his hands over his head, holding the seal, ready to smash it to the white pavement. The only thing stopping him was Bashere, up on his toes, hands raised to grip Rand’s arms.

 

"I don’t know what that is," Bashere said quietly, "but I think maybe you should wait before deciding to break it. Eh?" Tumad and the others were no longer watching Taim; they gaped wide-eyed at Rand. Even the Maidens had shifted their eyes to him, eyes full of concern. Sulin took a half step toward the men, and Jalani’s hand was outstretched toward Rand as if she did not realize it.

And we're supposed to trust that as a stroke of genius? When Rand was obviously being directly influenced by the Dark One?

 

This scene was what led Rand to asking Fel about the seals. And Fel thought he was crazy. What would cause him to change his mind?

 

The only reason Rand has to think he should break the seals is 1) the note from Fel, and 2) Min's reading of Fel's books. Which could very well be Ishamael's books. And Fel's murder, which clearly sent a message. As for how Moridin feels about the seals:

 

TITLE - Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens

 

“We can see the signs as clearly as you, Moridin,” Demandred said irritably. “The Time is near. We need to find the rest of the seals on the Great Lord’s prison. I’ve had my followers searching everywhere, but they’ve found nothing.’’

 

“Ah, yes. The seals. Indeed, they must be found.” Moridin’s smile was almost complacent.

 

That, along with Egwene's comment that a small part of Rand knows he shouldn't break the seals - that makes it clear to me that Moridin wants him to break them.

[Tialin]

I don't hate Egwene. I hate an idea that she and others have come to embody - that the world has time to debate who should lead.

 

It's really pretty simple, PUT OUT THE DAMN FIRE! If everybody gets together and does that, there'll be plenty of credit and prestige to go around afterwards. But, if they keep up their infernal pissing matches, all of existence burns to ashes.

 

The unproductive attitudes of those supposedly on the side of Light have become so deeply ingrained into the series that it's reached the point where I'm almost ready to root for the Dark. Just so they get the comeupance they all so richly deserve.

 

Rand needs to develop the Cosmic Dopeslap Weave, and administer it to everyone alive all at once.

 

 

OMG - Cosmic Dopeslap Weave - priceless!!!! LOL!

[Tialin]

Just because Rand and Moridin are merging doesn't mean that breaking the seals is a bad idea though.

No, the fact that it will set the Dark One free is what makes it bad.

 

We know as readers that Rand MUST break the Seals

Excuse me? How exactly do we know this?

 

Cause Herid Fel said so. I rather doubt that the shadow sent the gholam to kill him if it was a wrong idea.

 

Remember that we've had evidence the entire series that the Seals are eventually going to break anyway.

Seals corroding and seals being forcefully broken...two completely different things.

 

Indeed, because if the seals continue to corrode the bore will have plenty of time to grow and will be all that much harder to seal again than if there is a clean break and Rand makes his move before immediately.

 

Mazrim Taim even gave Rand a seal or two if I remember correctly and considering that Taim is very likely to serve the shadow that makes you think why he gave them to Rand instead of to someone on the dark side, doesn't it? Afterall if it was in the interest of the DO as brittle as they are it should have been destroyed back then. In fact you may ask why no one on the dark side has ever tried to find the seals it's been ages since we got that comment of four men with hammers being able to free the DO and yet the shadow does not bother with them.

 

Unless I'm totally confused, the implication I'm getting from Terez and Jennifer's posts is that Rand's desire to break the seals is not his own but rather Moridin's which I see no evidence of at all.

That is not surprising. Ask yourself...where did the idea come from?

 

Herid Fel and prophecy of the light among others. So it really can't be attributed to Moridin only.

 

Also remember that it isn't the end of the world if the Bore is open. It was open for decades during the entire War of the Shadow and the Dark One didn't just jump out and beat everybody down.

And before it was sealed - BEFORE it was sealed - the Dark One did not have nearly as much power to touch the world as he does now. What will happen when the seals are broken?

 

Is there any evidence how the touch of the DO in the AoL compares to his now? Cause I really don't see any reason why the DO should have been weaker back then. To me it's just that mankind had much more power to resist his influence. There were ter'angreal in place which regulated the wheather constantly, they sung their crops which protected them from the influence of the DO to some extend and in general there were far better sanitary and hygenic conditions.

 

Yes, the Shadow HAS bothered with the Seals - Darkfriends were sent to try ans steal them from Dobraine and Bashere, nearly killing Dobraine and wounding Bashere's wife Diera. They want them.

 

Maybe Taim wasn't fully or even partly a DF when he first came to Rand. Perhaps he was turned later - the 13 DF channeling through 13 Myddraal perhaps.

[Terez]

The whole Taim thing is very confusing, though. There was no way that anyone could know or even intuit that he had a seal, so why give it to Rand if he is indeed Dark. Taking it to Shayol Ghul, or giving it to Demandred who was in charge at that time, I could see, but giving it to Rand???

It makes perfect sense when you consider that he was ordered to give it to Rand. They want him to break the seals. And Moridin was probably around then - just not visible until ACOS.

 

Yes, the Dark has been trying to find the seals that Rand has. Recall the Forsaken Kaffe Klatsch before the Cleansing and at least one since where Moridin's instructions are to find the artifacts that Rand has but, only if necessary, kill him in the process.

Moridin wanted the Choedan Kal and Callandor

 

Ultimately, in terms of how the story has been setup, it doesn't matter whether Rand is sane or the Mad Hatter, whether he is just Rand or Randidin, he's still the Dragon Reborn and everything, Dreams, Viewings, Foretellings, Legends, you name it says it's the Dragon Reborn who shall "confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light."

 

Unless Egwene or others are thinking it's all going to be as simple as throwing Rand into the maw of a volcano like some Polynesian Legend, they gotta let the guy do it his way if they want to survive. That much, at least, seems self evident.

It's foolish is what it is. Just because Rand is the world's only hope does NOT mean that he is guaranteed to do it right. To assume that he knows what he is doing when it is clear that he does not is naive, and if Egwene were to do that, it could very well lead to the end of everything.

 

As to whether Rand has a plan beyond breaking the seals, we just don't know.

No, we DO know. We saw him tell Min that he had no freaking clue what to do after that. He begged her to figure it out for him.

[WhiskyJack]

1) Feird Mel sent the note to Rand before he died. Thais what gave the Rand idea (Actually Min gave him the idea). It has nothing to do with Moridin.

2) Breaking the seals will do nothing. May be it will boost SH's power, that's all. DO will not get free. Seal only patched the bore, not the whole prison of DO. We know for fact that bore was open for 100 year during AOL. What was the end result? Nothing. No different that what it is now. I am perplexed by the idea that breaking the seal will some how freak DO!?

[WhiskyJack]

The whole Taim thing is very confusing, though. There was no way that anyone could know or even intuit that he had a seal, so why give it to Rand if he is indeed Dark. Taking it to Shayol Ghul, or giving it to Demandred who was in charge at that time, I could see, but giving it to Rand???

It makes perfect sense when you consider that he was ordered to give it to Rand. They want him to break the seals. And Moridin was probably around then - just not visible until ACOS.

 

Yes, the Dark has been trying to find the seals that Rand has. Recall the Forsaken Kaffe Klatsch before the Cleansing and at least one since where Moridin's instructions are to find the artifacts that Rand has but, only if necessary, kill him in the process.

Moridin wanted the Choedan Kal and Callandor

 

Ultimately, in terms of how the story has been setup, it doesn't matter whether Rand is sane or the Mad Hatter, whether he is just Rand or Randidin, he's still the Dragon Reborn and everything, Dreams, Viewings, Foretellings, Legends, you name it says it's the Dragon Reborn who shall "confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light."

 

Unless Egwene or others are thinking it's all going to be as simple as throwing Rand into the maw of a volcano like some Polynesian Legend, they gotta let the guy do it his way if they want to survive. That much, at least, seems self evident.

It's foolish is what it is. Just because Rand is the world's only hope does NOT mean that he is guaranteed to do it right. To assume that he knows what he is doing when it is clear that he does not is naive, and if Egwene were to do that, it could very well lead to the end of everything.

 

As to whether Rand has a plan beyond breaking the seals, we just don't know.

No, we DO know. We saw him tell Min that he had no freaking clue what to do after that. He begged her to figure it out for him.

 

1)We do not know in what circumstance Taim found the seal and why he gave it to Rand.

 

2) Moridin is NOT looking for Calandor and Choden Kal. He uses TP. We have not seen even a hint of it but we do know from attack on Bashere' wife and Dobraine that DF hunt for seals.

 

3) I am surprised that after reading the book, people are passing such stories. Rand claimed that he had all the memories of LTT. And what exactly those memories contain? Let me venture a guess, the way to create new seals may be? After LTT did it the first time, right?

[WhiskyJack]

Yup. Herid Fel with his "clear away the rubble".

 

I think you should read you're signature ;)

Just because the readers think that this means break the seals doesn't mean that's what it does mean.

 

However, it could. We'll find out in another year!

 

Unfortunately that was Min's and Rand's conclusion. Is the man Rand thinking that, or it's DR guided by the memories of other Dragons, has come to that conclusion. Remember it's only after his epiphany that Rand decided to tell Eqwene what he intends to do.

[Terez]

1)We do not know in what circumstance Taim found the seal and why he gave it to Rand.

Of course, but we DO know that he's a Darkfriend, and we have good reason to believe that he has been granted access to the True Power, even. My speculation was given because there was a situation under discussion that made no sense. My scenario gives a logical explanation for it.

 

2) Moridin is NOT looking for Calandor and Choden Kal. He uses TP.

He's hoarding objects of the Power, as we saw in chapter 5. He's a smart guy like that. He also said at the Forsaken Garden Club meeting that Rand wasn't likely to be carrying the seals around.

 

We have not seen even a hint of it but we do know from attack on Bashere' wife and Dobraine that DF hunt for seals.

Yes, but Demandred said he's been trying to get them, and he's probably not the only one. Graendal is likely, with Domon.

 

3) I am surprised that after reading the book, people are passing such stories. Rand claimed that he had all the memories of LTT. And what exactly those memories contain? Let me venture a guess, the way to create new seals may be? After LTT did it the first time, right?

Sure, but he thinks to himself that he didn't do it right the first time, and knows he has to do it differently this time. He has no clue what to do this time.

 

I will post a thread on TL with all the relevant quotes. I should probably avoid this thread...

[Sharaman]

Clearly Moridin and Shaidar weren't on the same page with the Ch-Kal if you assume Moridin wants it.

Else Elza/ Shaidar would have simply taken it in TGS rather than leaving it lying on the floor for a servant to find.

I suspect both sides are groping where the seal business is concerned.

Rand doesn't know what to do -- beyond clearing rubble. Moridin is reacting to what he thinks Rand may want to do. It's a guess-counterguess situation.

[dfchang]

I don't think it is credible to suggest that Rand SHOULDN'T break the seals.

 

It makes sense to do it.

 

Remember that Perrin thinks it is the right thing to do. He even uses a blacksmith's analogy to support it.

 

Breaking the Seals is KEY to resealing the Bore in a more permanent fashion.

 

Who cares if Taim is a Darkfriend who gives Rand the Seal. It was a way to gain trust and look where that's gotten us: A Black Tower that is truly FUBAR. Great trade off for the Shadow.

 

And the Seals are all going to break anyway, half are already broken, they CAN NOT BE PRESERVED.

 

Delaying breaking them only means that they will be broken according to the Shadow's schedule which is disastrous. Rand even mentions it again in the text of ToM, likening keeping the Seals intact as wasted energy, a process that saps your strength because you're on a treadmill.

 

If you bother to think about it a litte like Perrin, breaking the remaining Seals is not only reasonable but sadly OBVIOUS.

 

And what may I ask is going to happen when the Seals are broken? I mean, the Bore was wide open before Lews Therin sealed it up for the duration of the entire War of the Shadow. True, the Dark One could affect the world a lot more directly with the Bore open but Rand isn't exactly planning on hanging around for a century afterwards.

 

The Shadow knows the Seals are going to break no matter what, Rand is simply taking the fight to them by breaking it at HIS convenience.

 

It's all in the text right? All in ToM?

 

By the way, I've yet to read exactly what Egwene's counter plan is. I suspect there is none. Does she think that the PHYSICAL seals are what is holding the Dark One back? She wants to "plan" and "think it over" but unless she's been spending the vast majority of her time studying the philosophies of Herid Fel and others, I doubt her opinion is as valuable as Min Farshaw. Maybe I'm missing something but for the past 8 books or so, I thought Egwene cared about one thing and one thing only: uniting the White Tower. How much does Egwene even KNOW about the Dark One? How much has she even THOUGHT about the Dark One and the overall nature of the universe and the Wheel? Do you think she can hold a philosophy debate with Moridin? Should we go back to Verin in tGS to give us an idea how much Egwene knows? Verin has struggled with this question after ohhhh . . . SEVEN DECADES as a freaking BLACK AJAH and she's no closer to the truth than when she started. Forget answers, folks, when it comes to the Last Battle, Egwene doesn't even have the right questions.

 

I mean, what in the end, does she know that puts her in any position to figure out whether the Seals should be broken or not other than the "that's crazy dude!!!" opinion that we could have gotten from that apple farmer in Chapter 1? By the way, along the same lines, we also know that saidin is tainted, stilling can't be healed, and balefire can't be deflected. Right?? Oh, wait . . .

 

Dennis

[WhiskyJack]

Egwene's reaction is born more out of fear than logic. I understand her viewpoint. Does anyone here really believes Eqwene is capable of judging the merit or demerits of any plan against DO itself? She can only be muscle behind DR. Only problem is that she will never agree with ANY plan that was not proposed by WT itself. Any support coming from her is going to come with major reservations. Rand understands this perfectly well. So Egwene must be manipulated, must be used without her even knowing. May be Rand has no clue about the seals or may be he has some inkling but he knows very well that telling Egwene all that is going to be waste of time. He never had to tell her what he was going to do but he did because he knew how she would react.

[tneva82]

Those of you saying "Egwene doesn't have a plan and Rand does, and therefore Egwene should put up or shut up" are committing the fallacious thinking that hasty action is better than none at all,

 

Especially as it seems Rand does NOT have a plan...

 

He's basically just gambling hoping Wheel and Pattern will do the work for him.

 

Does Rand have the time to patiently outline what he intends? To sell his plan to a hostile market? Too put everything on hold while the Aes Sedai debate what to do? From the reports of how his foray into Tar Valon plays out, it seems he doesn't think so.

 

What plan? He doesn't HAVE a plan unless you count "let's gamble and hope pattern helps us" as a plan...

 

That's not much of a plan...

 

If Rand had plan the sure atleast there would be plan but since there's no plan whatsoever...

 

We as readers have benefit of knowing that it will work out as Rand is hero of the story and this is book with story and it won't end up in DO's victory but funny that characters in that book don't have that information we readers have that allows some of us go all high and mighty.

 

You were Egwene knowing what she knows and no more->you would oppose Rand 99% certainly.

 

So, if you're Egwene or Fortuona, or anybody else, for your own sake, follow wherever he chooses to lead. Get behind whatever he thinks needs to be done and PUSH!

 

So follow Rand's plan of "trust the pattern fix it for us".

 

If we follow that plan then it's irrelevant what we do as pattern will fix it for us anyway. Therefore doesn't matter does egwene support rand or not. It's the pattern that will fix it rather than rand or anybody else. Rand doesn't have afterall any sort of real plan.

 

Bottom line: Egwene WAS raised too young. She still has a lot of growing up to do. Latra was holding out for the Choedan Kal. Egwene has no Choedan Kal alternative and is just grasping for straws.

 

Egwene wants to hear real plan rather than "let's hope pattern and creator save us".

 

Rand didn't give any sort of plan.

 

Egwene doesn't have any sort of plan to support so no wonder she's not supporting it. Rand didn't give any plan.

 

Humans don't usually go jumping around without plan. Some here are doing that because they have omnisiah knowledge being readers of book that the characters in book doesn't but any real person in real situation won't go around jumping around without plan. Atleast not any RESPONSIBLE people. I sure would not want to follow any leader who risks world's end without any sort of plan...

 

1) Being an Aes Sedai, she will not bother to acquire more information. I guess she did not in the book.

2) I am 100% sure even if Rand had told her "everything", she would have objected still the same. Things like "it's too risky, how do you know this, you will destroy the world" blah blah. May be Rand knows that he can never convince Eqwene or any Aes Sedai so he simply didn't bother to tell them anymore than what he plans to do.

 

You are acting here in the same manner you accuse Egwene acting :) Ironic that.

 

 

Sorry but what Dragon's side switching has to do with anything? RJ never said that shadow has won even once in Randland so..

 

True he hasn't won. Otherwise there would be no more Randland. Dragon has switched sides though.

 

In fact she doesn't know diddly about how to proceed and neither does anybody else.

 

Except the Dragon.

 

Dragon doesn't know about how to go on either...He doesn't have ANY sort of plan. Or if he has it's basically "let's hope pattern and creator to help us since I don't have any idea how to proceed".