Discuss Prologue Through Chapter 45

[gambril]

I find it hilarious in a depressing manner that the Aes Sedai shield him with 13 linked channelers when he comes to Tar Valon. Think about it, one man alone walks into a stronghold of over a thousand channelers and what do they do? They put their backs up, afraid of the man; who is alone! Also the man is like a walking beacon of light, clouds are parting and suns literally shining down on him, the champion of the light and what do they do...they shield him. I'm sorry, Aes Sedai stupidity knows no bounds.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I find it hilarious in a depressing manner that the Aes Sedai shield him with 13 linked channelers when he comes to Tar Valon. Think about it, one man alone walks into a stronghold of over a thousand channelers and what do they do? They put their backs up, afraid of the man; who is alone! Also the man is like a walking beacon of light, clouds are parting and suns literally shining down on him, the champion of the light and what do they do...they shield him. I'm sorry, Aes Sedai stupidity knows no bounds.

 

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. I may even change my sig to "Aes Sedai stupidity knows no bounds." because it is so true.

[jdbond]

I hope Egwene dies in next book;)

[jdbond]

I think the rub here is that this is being setup as a case of history repeating itself.

 

The Dragon has a plan. The most influential female channeler wets herself because the plan doesn't come with a guarantee. Next she'll pull a Latra Posae and refuse to cooperate, leaving Rand to repeat the Strike on Shayul Ghul with whatever male forces he can scrape together.

 

I say BAH! to that.

 

 

Bah..there's a flaw in this plan. Dragon will not be without female channelers this time. There are too many to pick and some of them are pretty good in one power (yeh I am ignoring Nynaeve at this point).

[jdbond]

But what if Rand is wrong to want to break the seals? The Dark Prophesy certainly seems to predict a great deal of gloom and doom on the day Rand tries that. And Egwene may have access to it. Verin left her a book with many Dark Prophesies in it. So maybe Egwene is right to oppose Rand after all.

 

Or maybe Rand planned for her to oppose him, hoping she would gather all his allies for their meeting, and then he could surprise the full gathering with his actual plan. That is a possibility too.

 

 

You do realize that breaking the seal will not do much, right? Bore was open for 100 years in AOL and yet DO couldn't break free. 4(3?) of the seals are already broken and rest are just accidents waiting to happen. We do know that resealing requires breaking of older seals. You cannot patch the patch. Egwene basically has no plan to actually stop the DO (I am not saying Rand's plan is not very dangerous and it carries very high probability of failure but it's a plan). So she should either put her own plan forward or just shut the hell up;)

 

 

Why I am getting the feeling that this discussion is not about Egwene and Rand anymore?

[talij]

The Perrin and Egwene scenes were indeed awesome. Egwene had been built up as a master of T'a'R and we see Perrin sail right past her in this book! I don't know that she could bring herself to do what he did stopping a weave like that, but he definitely opens her eyes to the full possibilities. I liked how Perrin just walks in and swats the BA away, then goes back to his own fight, which itself was pretty cool!

 

I think Egwene v. Rand is getting a little overblown. Rand laid out his plan before her, knowing she'd disagree with it. He gives her a month to plan her arguement that he shouldn't break the seals, letting her know he will hear her arguements before it happens. We the readers know that the rubble must be cleared, but Egwene doesn't. Yeah, breaking the seals won't completely let the DO loose, but look at the effects he's causing now, with 3 still partially in place?

 

Think of it like this: the world is a sinking boat in an ocean filled with sharks. Egwene wants to ride the boat as long as they can, hoping to find some way to fix the leak and make it to safety. Rand wants to flip the boat over, not knowing how to fix it yet, and hope they can do so before the sharks eat them all. Both sides have their risks, and the stakes are quite high. Egwene is simply building her case against what seems like a reckless act of someone who, let's face it, hasn't been the most stable recently. She's by no means 100% against Rand, just against his plan which is still shaky at best.

 

As for Easing the Badger, I was actually wiping tears away from my eyes I was laughing so hard. I was kinda incredulous that the reunion was actually taking place (not some trick or trap), as it was too convoluted and random. Then the punch line hit and I was done. Well played!

[fionwe1987]

Is Easing the Badger the small unnoticed thing? And who meets whom?

[Axon]

Its no doubt that RJ intended to Egwene to be Rand's "Latra Posae". The difference is supposed to be that this time, hopefully Rand will find a way to work with her. He KNOWS what happened at the End of the War of the Shadow, and he knows the consequence of men and women being separated in this battle.

 

This is one of the largest themes (if not the largest) of the series, that the greatest things are done with men and women working together.

 

I'm kind of meh on Egwene. I love her when she's being awesome, but I can't stand her when some of her annoying qualities are in the forefront. I do not think you can deny that Egwene almost never gives Rand his due...and to be fair (unless it changes in this book), Rand never really takes her seriously as well.

 

Eventually Trust, another huge theme in the series, will have to be in play for both sides to do what needs to be done.

 

All true. The difference is that Rand has a plan and Egwene has nothing. That makes no difference for her, however; she's just too controlling to ever accept that someone else came up with a better way to do something (or to do anything, really). Her plan could be identical to Rand's and she'd still argue. Plus Rand is the chosen one, not her, which is something she doesn't seem to accept on any level even this far along in the story. To her, he's still dumb-ass Rand that she was going to settle for.

 

They say the male ego is exasperating, but the female ego can be even worse. Instead of mixing in delusional feelings of invincibility, it mixes in a severally judgmental and stubborn attitude.

 

Sad part is I really want to like Egwene. She has some excellent qualities. She also has massive flaws. I think Moraine said it: "the world has danced to our song for [x centuries]." Not so easy for the Aes Sedai to stop singing, I suppose, absolutely idiotic as it may be.

[jdbond]

The Perrin and Egwene scenes were indeed awesome. Egwene had been built up as a master of T'a'R and we see Perrin sail right past her in this book! I don't know that she could bring herself to do what he did stopping a weave like that, but he definitely opens her eyes to the full possibilities. I liked how Perrin just walks in and swats the BA away, then goes back to his own fight, which itself was pretty cool!

 

I think Egwene v. Rand is getting a little overblown. Rand laid out his plan before her, knowing she'd disagree with it. He gives her a month to plan her arguement that he shouldn't break the seals, letting her know he will hear her arguements before it happens. We the readers know that the rubble must be cleared, but Egwene doesn't. Yeah, breaking the seals won't completely let the DO loose, but look at the effects he's causing now, with 3 still partially in place?

 

Think of it like this: the world is a sinking boat in an ocean filled with sharks. Egwene wants to ride the boat as long as they can, hoping to find some way to fix the leak and make it to safety. Rand wants to flip the boat over, not knowing how to fix it yet, and hope they can do so before the sharks eat them all. Both sides have their risks, and the stakes are quite high. Egwene is simply building her case against what seems like a reckless act of someone who, let's face it, hasn't been the most stable recently. She's by no means 100% against Rand, just against his plan which is still shaky at best.

 

As for Easing the Badger, I was actually wiping tears away from my eyes I was laughing so hard. I was kinda incredulous that the reunion was actually taking place (not some trick or trap), as it was too convoluted and random. Then the punch line hit and I was done. Well played!

 

 

That I am guessing is just an assumption. Rand tells Cadsuane he has all the memories of LTT. Does that mean he actually knows how to seal the bore? Speculate.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, Rand's plan definitely has at least one flaw. What plan doesn't?

 

The only thing that's certain in life is that we all will die. Everything else is a gamble.

 

Waiting isn't an option and no isn't an answer. Eggy's either gotta get with Rand's program or come up with a better one.

[jdbond]

Oh, Rand's plan definitely has at least one flaw. What plan doesn't?

 

The only thing that's certain in life is that we all will die. Everything else is a gamble.

 

Waiting isn't an option and no isn't an answer. Eggy's either gotta get with Rand's program or come up with a better one.

 

 

You mean the same one as last time? Not the woman thing but the DO being able to touch Saidin?

 

People in Randland have made seals too much of a deal. While 7 seals indeed completely blocked DO, they were never meant to last forever and they will break sooner or later on their own. And Do is not going to get free for long long time even if seals are gone. True danger is world falling to shadow and not DO getting free anytime soon.

[The Dirty Landry]

All true. The difference is that Rand has a plan and Egwene has nothing. That makes no difference for her, however; she's just too controlling to ever accept that someone else came up with a better way to do something (or to do anything, really). Her plan could be identical to Rand's and she'd still argue. Plus Rand is the chosen one, not her, which is something she doesn't seem to accept on any level even this far along in the story. To her, he's still dumb-ass Rand that she was going to settle for.

 

They say the male ego is exasperating, but the female ego can be even worse. Instead of mixing in delusional feelings of invincibility, it mixes in a severally judgmental and stubborn attitude.

 

Sad part is I really want to like Egwene. She has some excellent qualities. She also has massive flaws. I think Moraine said it: "the world has danced to our song for [x centuries]." Not so easy for the Aes Sedai to stop singing, I suppose, absolutely idiotic as it may be.

 

Yeah, I've always wanted to be a huge fan of Egwene as well. I really enjoy her character when she is only around Aes Sedai, but whenever she's around Rand, Mat, Perrin she kinda treats them like crap. I think that RJ intended Egwene to be a somewhat sympathetic, yet frustrating character. Much the same way he probably would have written Latra Posae.

[tneva82]

All true. The difference is that Rand has a plan and Egwene has nothing.

 

Let's see. Guy says he's going to break the seals. Did he give any sort of good reasoning as how that will work just fine? Did he give any proof that will not result in disaster?

 

Is it that surprising that Egwene might just wish to...You know...STUDY AND PLAN the idea without rushing first?

 

By any chance you have habit of jumping head first into unknown waters without checking are there any rocks just under the surface? Because that's what breaking seals without planning sure sounds like. And if Rand didn't provide good solid plan and evidence favouring it that's what it's going to sound to anybody. So hardly surprising if Egwene wants him to atleast post-pone it 'till it's been studied and planned.

 

Does Rand even know what to do once seals are broken? Or is he just hoping to be able to improvise?

[jdbond]

All true. The difference is that Rand has a plan and Egwene has nothing.

 

Let's see. Guy says he's going to break the seals. Did he give any sort of good reasoning as how that will work just fine? Did he give any proof that will not result in disaster?

 

Is it that surprising that Egwene might just wish to...You know...STUDY AND PLAN the idea without rushing first?

 

By any chance you have habit of jumping head first into unknown waters without checking are there any rocks just under the surface? Because that's what breaking seals without planning sure sounds like. And if Rand didn't provide good solid plan and evidence favouring it that's what it's going to sound to anybody. So hardly surprising if Egwene wants him to atleast post-pone it 'till it's been studied and planned.

Does Rand even know what to do once seals are broken? Or is he just hoping to be able to improvise?

 

Did Egwene pursue Rand further over this issue or tried using her own scholars to find out why he would propose breaking rest of the seals?

 

 

Well Rand only knows what LTT knew.

[Jeangray]

I think the rub here is that this is being setup as a case of history repeating itself.

 

The Dragon has a plan. The most influential female channeler wets herself because the plan doesn't come with a guarantee.

 

Eh, LTT's plan had a rather huge flaw and if Latra hadn't successfully opposed him saidar would have been tainted also and the world would have ended.

 

This time around, Rand didn't even explain what he intended to do once the seals are broken beyond the very vague "fight!", refused to discuss anything, etc. From his POV we know that he doesn't actually have any plan and just hopes to come up with something. In addition, Egwene also had a prophetic Dream that it would be a disaster if Rand went ahead with it. So, why are you all blaming _Egwene_?

Rand is the one squarely responsible for this latest disagreement. And it almost seemed to me that it might be calculated on his part, part of the plan to get everybody to ally and fight TG together without him. He was never meant to be a weapon, after all...

 

Re: Egwene in general, I'd say it is part of RJ's larger pattern of inability to depict competent and sympathetic female leaders, who have natural authority.

 

Also, Egwene did negate weaves in T'AR after she saw Perrin do it. BTW, this answers the question of Rand blocking balefire with Callandor in TDR - his extreme ta'verenness let him stumble on this quality of T'AR, it seems.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think the rub here is that this is being setup as a case of history repeating itself.

 

The Dragon has a plan. The most influential female channeler wets herself because the plan doesn't come with a guarantee.

 

Eh, LTT's plan had a rather huge flaw and if Latra hadn't successfully opposed him saidar would have been tainted also and the world would have ended.

 

 

And, Latra's plan ( do nothing and wait until the access keys were recovered ) had an even bigger flaw - the Light would have been utterly destroyed while they waited.

 

Sure, LTT's plan was very flawed, but it did allow the world to continue. Latra's "plan" would have destroyed the world.

 

I have not read the necessary passage, so I'm relying on reports, but it sounds like Egwene's plan is no different from Latra's. We've already seen that movie.

[dfchang]

I agree.

 

The difference is that this time, Egwene is going to trust Rand because this is not Latra and Lews Therin, it is at the end of the day Rand and Egwene. Two friends who love each other . . . and will trust each other.

 

She will trust him in the end. And therein will lie the changing of history and a different result.

 

Dennis

[Jeangray]

 

Sure, LTT's plan was very flawed, but it did allow the world to continue. Latra's "plan" would have destroyed the world.

 

The world only survived LTT's plan because Latra held the women back from it. She was 120% right to oppose LTT in this and I notice that the Pattern was on her side in this too or she wouldn't have managed it against his ta'verenness.

 

We also don't know how Latra's plan would have turned out if not for all the delays. LTT didn't believe in it, but great man as he was, he has been wrong before. Also, didn't he himself admit that he made mistakes? That he fell to arrogance and despair in the end?

 

And notice, this time Rand didn't propose any plan and from his POV we know that he doesn't have any beyond nebulous intention to fight. I am not sure how one can blame Egwene for not blindly going along, particularly since she had a prophetic Dream that it would be disastrous.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Sure, LTT's plan was very flawed, but it did allow the world to continue. Latra's "plan" would have destroyed the world.

 

The world only survived LTT's plan because Latra held the women back from it. She was 120% right to oppose LTT in this and I notice that the Pattern was on her side in this too or she wouldn't have managed it against his ta'verenness.

 

We also don't know how Latra's plan would have turned out if not for all the delays. LTT didn't believe in it, but great man as he was, he has been wrong before. Also, didn't he himself admit that he made mistakes? That he fell to arrogance and despair in the end?

 

And notice, this time Rand didn't propose any plan and from his POV we know that he doesn't have any beyond nebulous intention to fight. I am not sure how one can blame Egwene for not blindly going along, particularly since she had a prophetic Dream that it would be disastrous.

 

 

Latra's opposition of LTT sealed the bore? I am totally confused. What would have happened if LTT had not attacked SG? Light would have won because of Latra's plan?

 

Sorry but not doing anything is always a good way to beat an relentless enemy;)

 

 

No one knew that DO can taint the Saidin. You cannot plan for what you don't know. Look at Avi's vision. Light might win and Seanchan might destroy everything onwards (the way life is in Randland). So that means Rand should simply call it quits and let Eqwene defeat the shadow? LTT waited and they lost only the access key in AOL(and Latra's plan which wasn't a plan in first place). This time, they will lose everything if Dragon doesn't act.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

We readers have the luxury of being very high and mighty about which characters seem to be more closely connected to RJ's vision of what it'd take to get the job done. Inside the world of Randland, no character has access to all the information we do. If I were in Egwene's shoes, I'd think Rand was insane. I'd oppose him 100 percent unless he came up with a plausible, viable plan for success and described it clearly and patiently. Leaping into the heart of danger may work in action movies, but in real-world strategy it's usually a last-place performer. Those of you saying "Egwene doesn't have a plan and Rand does, and therefore Egwene should put up or shut up" are committing the fallacious thinking that hasty action is better than none at all, which is far from a universal truth.

 

I think Egwene has been more stubborn about Rand than she should have been, but that doesn't invalidate her position. I can't wait to read ToM myself to see how their few interviews go!

[Bob T Dwarf]

We readers have the luxury of being very high and mighty about which characters seem to be more closely connected to RJ's vision of what it'd take to get the job done. Inside the world of Randland, no character has access to all the information we do. If I were in Egwene's shoes, I'd think Rand was insane. I'd oppose him 100 percent unless he came up with a plausible, viable plan for success and described it clearly and patiently. Leaping into the heart of danger may work in action movies, but in real-world strategy it's usually a last-place performer. Those of you saying "Egwene doesn't have a plan and Rand does, and therefore Egwene should put up or shut up" are committing the fallacious thinking that hasty action is better than none at all, which is far from a universal truth.

 

I think Egwene has been more stubborn about Rand than she should have been, but that doesn't invalidate her position. I can't wait to read ToM myself to see how their few interviews go!

 

It's more a matter of how the character sees the situation. We know that the Aes Sedai think they should lead and everyone else should follow. After twelve books, we've had our noses ground in the fact that all women think all men are idiots who need daily instruction and supervision in order to tie their own shoes. It used to be that all men who channeled went mad, and, from a story standpoint, Egwene has been triply conditioned to oppose anything Rand proposes.

 

Does Rand have the time to patiently outline what he intends? To sell his plan to a hostile market? Too put everything on hold while the Aes Sedai debate what to do? From the reports of how his foray into Tar Valon plays out, it seems he doesn't think so.

 

It really all comes down to who leads and who follows. Even a poor plan is better than no plan at all. So far, Rand is the only one with even a hint, of an idea, of a hope of a glimmer of a plan. Everybody else has been so wrapped up in their own concerns they haven't taken time to think about the bigger picture. Since they really are at a point where their only choices are to march or die it would behoove them to make a leap of faith and form up and march however the Dragon desires.

[Rootbeer]

 

Sure, LTT's plan was very flawed, but it did allow the world to continue. Latra's "plan" would have destroyed the world.

 

The world only survived LTT's plan because Latra held the women back from it. She was 120% right to oppose LTT in this and I notice that the Pattern was on her side in this too or she wouldn't have managed it against his ta'verenness.

 

We also don't know how Latra's plan would have turned out if not for all the delays. LTT didn't believe in it, but great man as he was, he has been wrong before. Also, didn't he himself admit that he made mistakes? That he fell to arrogance and despair in the end?

 

And notice, this time Rand didn't propose any plan and from his POV we know that he doesn't have any beyond nebulous intention to fight. I am not sure how one can blame Egwene for not blindly going along, particularly since she had a prophetic Dream that it would be disastrous.

LTT's plan was a desperate fallback.

 

Everyone else was probably all supporting Latra's plan... until both the access keys AND the CK were taken by the forces of the DO. Then, LTT's plan suddenly looked very appealing... except Latra made it so that no female Aes Sedai would support him because it was too "reckless", so he only had saidin to work with.

RJ said that the DO was only able to taint Saidin in a very special circumstance, which is why he hadn't re-taint saidin with the aid of his male FS the moment Rand cleansed it. LTT implied to Rand in TGS that if the female Aes Sedai had helped him, the taint might not happened, but there's no way of saying for sure.

 

Besides, you may call LTT's plan reckless, but think of the situation. The world is in chaos, the DO was clearly winning, and the weapons you made, the only thing that could even hope to stop the DO, had fallen into their hands. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Yet Latra continued to oppose LTT's plan.

 

Remember Asmodean's story about the man, the cliff, and the few blades of grass? LTT was all for grasping grasses while Latra apparently wanted to take a dive and hope to find herself a branch along the way.

 

Regardless, LTT's actions may have unwittingly doomed the male Aes Sedai for thousands of years, but he saved the world nevertheless.

 

Now he's just finishing what he's started.

 

Btw: I'm one of those who hate Egwene to the core, so my opinion may be a bit bias.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't hate Egwene. I hate an idea that she and others have come to embody - that the world has time to debate who should lead.

 

It's really pretty simple, PUT OUT THE DAMN FIRE! If everybody gets together and does that, there'll be plenty of credit and prestige to go around afterwards. But, if they keep up their infernal pissing matches, all of existence burns to ashes.

 

The unproductive attitudes of those supposedly on the side of Light have become so deeply ingrained into the series that it's reached the point where I'm almost ready to root for the Dark. Just so they get the comeupance they all so richly deserve.

 

Rand needs to develop the Cosmic Dopeslap Weave, and administer it to everyone alive all at once.

[Jeangray]

 

LTT's plan was a desperate fallback.

 

No, according to the world book, it was something that he had worked on for a long time. And that due to his arguments the construction of CK was put on hold many times.

 

LTT implied to Rand in TGS that if the female Aes Sedai had helped him, the taint might not happened, but there's no way of saying for sure.

 

RJ said in his QAs that saidar would have been tainted if the female AS had participated in the Sealing (and no, I am not hunting for a quote. Theoryland has it in it's QA database though). LTT only saved the world rather than doomed it because women refused to participate.

 

Also, while nobody may have anticipated the taint exactly, in a world with prophetic Dreams and Fortellings and what have you, don't you think that there must have been warning signs of this nature? Like there are now.

 

Re: following a leader. Following one blindly and without question often lead to terrible disasters. Rand himself made some very big mistakes that way, leave alone LTT. If he wants to do something so drastic, he bloody should explain - at least to people whom he trusts and needs. And listen to their arguments.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Re: following a leader. Following one blindly and without question often lead to terrible disasters. Rand himself made some very big mistakes that way, leave alone LTT. If he wants to do something so drastic, he bloody should explain - at least to people whom he trusts and needs. And listen to their arguments.

 

Now you want Rand to do the impossible and prove a negative. "I'm not nuts, see?"

 

He's supposed to trust her, but she has no need to trust him?

 

The fact here is that - per foretelling - Rand is going to die no matter what. Also, with the Dragon, it's touch-and-go, but without him, the world is screwed. So, the world needs Rand far more than Rand needs the world. Egwene and everybody else need to acquaint themselves with those facts and act accordingly.

 

What exactly is left to him as an option for accomplishing the resealing that isn't "drastic"? What action can anyone take that isn't "drastic" when faced with a world-ending scenario? List just one thing that the characters in this series can do that will succeed that isn't "drastic".