Discuss The Full Book

[sdelu]

Two questions for anyone who feels like answering...

 

1) In what way was this book "darker" than TGS? As far as I could tell, pretty much everything in this book was a turn around (in a good way) from the evil/twisted events happening in TGS and even before. There were bad things happening, but nothing like Rand's turning to the dark side, or the general bleakness of almost the entire world. The closest this book got to "dark" was when Perrin wasn't making his intentions 500% clear that he was there to save the Whitecloaks instead of killing them, except even then if you were paying attention at all to the story you wouldn't have been fooled. Can anyone tell me what they were thinking when describing the book that way in previews or promos?

 

2) What was the big reveal from the Glossary? I couldn't find anything in there that was important that was revealed during ToM. Anyone know which entry they were referring to?

 

1) I would assume that the darkness had to do with Ituralde's scenes, as well as the fact that people started dying. Never mind that they were all characters that nobody really cared about... Also, we see that people are starting to be turned at the BT, and Slayer is back to killing things, learning that the Aiel are going to destroy themselves. What else? Mat's eye, maybe, though we knew that was coming. The Epilogue. Some of the new visions Min had.

 

I suppose those are the "darker" things that people were talking about.

 

I agree, though. It REALLY seems as if the Light had a better time of it than the dark, at least insofar as the main characters. For a book that was supposed to be grim and dangerous it really... didn't seem like it.

 

2) Did you look at the glossary entry for Graendal? It says she was responsible for "the destruction of Mesaana." Pretty big spoiler, considering we didn't even know if she'd show up in this book.

[Crossroad]

Loved it only one downside, Got to wait another whole year for the Rand and Tuon Meeting Darn

[Eformo]

But just to fully bury the issue, Graendal's entry in the glossary outright states that she was responsible for Asmo's death.

 

2) Did you look at the glossary entry for Graendal? It says she was responsible for "the destruction of Mesaana." Pretty big spoiler, considering we didn't even know if she'd show up in this book.

 

 

It's interesting to note that the entry lists two people Graendal is responsible for the death of and the third person who's destruction she is responsible for. Considering that we KNOW who killed one of those two and we KNOW who destroyed the third, alongside the fact that Graendal is not DIRECTLY responsible for either of those deaths, this seems like an Aes Sedai answer.

 

We have been told Graendal is responsible, but in a context that makes it clear "responsible for the death of" does not mean "killed".

[sdelu]

well, Mesaana wasn't killed, just broken, so that could be the reason.

 

And she wasn't the one who pulled the trigger on Aran'gar, but she definitely threw her in front of the bullet, so I'd say that she pretty much DID kill her.

 

I hope you weren't trying to imply that Graendal may have only been "responsible" for Asmodean's death but that she wasn't the "killer." It's been answered, and needs to die.

[Boundless]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

[Eformo]

well, Mesaana wasn't killed, just broken, so that could be the reason.

 

And she wasn't the one who pulled the trigger on Aran'gar, but she definitely threw her in front of the bullet, so I'd say that she pretty much DID kill her.

 

I hope you weren't trying to imply that Graendal may have only been "responsible" for Asmodean's death but that she wasn't the "killer." It's been answered, and needs to die.

 

Sadly, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'd like it do die as well, but that's pretty clearly (in my eyes) not enough to kill it.

 

If Graendal is responsible for Mesaana, just because she was controlling the guy who was unintentionally responsible for the Dreamspike being in the Tower when Mesaana launched an ill-fated attack, then I would have to say that Ishamael was responsible for the deaths of Balthamel and Aginor at the Eye of the World too. Come to think of it, since Slayer was working for Moridin by obeying Graendal, Moridin is at best only 1 step further removed from responsibility, but on a pretty reasonable reckoning, he's every bit as responsible as Graendal.

 

Here's an alternative: Graendal ordered Slayer to do it. It makes Graendal more directly responsible for it than she was for Mesaana, and a pretty similar degree of responsibility to what she holds for Aran'gar. Unfortunately, that theory isn't falsified by that glossary entry. I wish it was, but it isn't.

 

All I'm saying is that this question is as dead as everyone said Graendal was after they read tGS.

[sdelu]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

thoughts?

[JDJ]

Just finished the book...not the best book in the series but definitely in the top half of the series.

 

One question that is KILLING me. Who is Nakomi, the woman that Aviendha meets on her way to Rhuidean? The one who has a quick philosophical talk with Aviendha and then just disappears? I was totally confused with that scene.

Verin.

 

If Avi is near a portal stone... could Nakomi (in some twisted way) be another version of Avi from one of the other Realms? She would know how to invert the weaves, etc...

[KyleLitke]

I'm about halfway through this thread but wanted to mention this before I keep going...if people already came to a consensus about this or someone already confirmed/denied, my apologies.

 

In regards to the big unnoticed thing...I finished the book and still didn't get it. My initial thought was Mat's ashandarei simply because as far as I knew, nobody actually thought it was more than what it initially appeared. But I will say I had one problem with it...when I first heard about the big unnoticed thing, I read it as "it happened sometime in books 4-6, not positive which one" and not some big hint of "Okay, folks, it happened sometime in Books 4-6...get reading! I'm not narrowing it down further!". And look, I don't pretend I know everything about the story. I've been reading these books for most of my life and I love them, but I mix up which books things happen in all the time. But that? Mat visiting the foxes in Rhuidean and getting cut down by Rand? Book 4. Would never even have to think twice. That would be as odd to me as someone saying "You know, when Mat blew the horn...I dunno, it was in Book 2 or 3, maybe 4". The whole journey to the Waste is so integral to Book 4 that I have a hard time believing someone who was taking the time to talk about WoT (or, if Brandon said it, to WRITE IT), actually thought they might have gone to Rhuidean in Book 6.

 

So I didn't know, but reading through this thread, I caught mmcg's post in the middle, and now I kind of think that was it. I don't think any thought at all has been given to the Aiel sending male channelers to the Blight, and I wouldn't remember exactly which book it was mentioned in except that it couldn't have been before Book 4 and was probably not after Book 6. If that was an Aiel channeler at the end, that makes a lot of sense to me as a pretty enormous thing that was, essentially, "missed".

 

Just my thought.

[ravenprincess]

Okay, so I'm 230 pages in so far.

 

One thing is particularly puzzling me...are the Perrin and Rand arcs on different timelines? If not then HOW IN THE NINE HELLS is TAM AL'THOR in 2 places at once?

 

He's in Perrin's camp and he's still in Tear from the last book.

 

So that's my question. The rest I'm looking forward to reading and figuring out for myself (although I have the feeling that I'll blatantly miss what the BIG UNNOTICED THING is, so I might come back later and ask someone to point that out to me)

Read on, my friend. The answer's coming...

[slacker123]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

thoughts?

 

i already said, the broken wolf is jain farstrider, and he died in the midnight towers already

[KyleLitke]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

thoughts?

 

i already said, the broken wolf is jain farstrider, and he died in the midnight towers already

 

That's only if you assume the "Midnight Towers" refers to the tower of Ghenjei. It makes more sense that it refers to the Forsaken, considering Egwene's dream. That said, if it refers to the Tower of Ghenjei, then yeah, Jain is the obvious one, although I don't get why he'd be a "wolf". The rest could fit since Ishamael broke him (essentially) and since he appears to have "fallen".

[ColeOfCentauri]

do we find out who killed asmo in this one? i think it was greandel too, and this is an unrestricted spoiler board so if you wanna confirm that or just name his real killer im fine with that.

 

Sorry if someone pointed this out already, but the Superfade tells Graendal before messing her up that she is responsible for the deaths of 3 of the Chosen. Now, which deaths among the Chosen are her fault? Mesaana, Aran'gar, and... ASMODEAN.

 

OBJECTION: he could've been referring to Rahvin as the third, since Graendal and Sammael possibly could've helped Rahvin out but didn't.

 

On the other hand, she would've killed Asmo directly, as she also directly betrayed Aran'gar to her death, and allowing Perrin to use the dream spike SHE planted to trap Mesaana and doom her to Egwene's Tar Valon Rage. She didn't do anything to cause Rahvin's death, she just failed to prevent it despite the alliance, just like she didn't prevent Sammael's death.

 

So, I conclude that Graendal did indeed kill Asmodean

[KyleLitke]

It's also pretty much stated in the glossary. And wayyyy back in Chapter 5 (I think...her first non prologue chapter in the book), Moridin comments on her "making a habit of it" after Aran'gar's death (but before Mesaana). I realized right then that it had to be her, since I couldn't come up with anyone else that could have referred to except MAYBE Rahvin I guess. The rest just confirmed it.

[Danvighar]

I'm about halfway through this thread but wanted to mention this before I keep going...if people already came to a consensus about this or someone already confirmed/denied, my apologies.

 

In regards to the big unnoticed thing...I finished the book and still didn't get it. My initial thought was Mat's ashandarei simply because as far as I knew, nobody actually thought it was more than what it initially appeared. But I will say I had one problem with it...when I first heard about the big unnoticed thing, I read it as "it happened sometime in books 4-6, not positive which one" and not some big hint of "Okay, folks, it happened sometime in Books 4-6...get reading! I'm not narrowing it down further!". And look, I don't pretend I know everything about the story. I've been reading these books for most of my life and I love them, but I mix up which books things happen in all the time. But that? Mat visiting the foxes in Rhuidean and getting cut down by Rand? Book 4. Would never even have to think twice. That would be as odd to me as someone saying "You know, when Mat blew the horn...I dunno, it was in Book 2 or 3, maybe 4". The whole journey to the Waste is so integral to Book 4 that I have a hard time believing someone who was taking the time to talk about WoT (or, if Brandon said it, to WRITE IT), actually thought they might have gone to Rhuidean in Book 6.

 

So I didn't know, but reading through this thread, I caught mmcg's post in the middle, and now I kind of think that was it. I don't think any thought at all has been given to the Aiel sending male channelers to the Blight, and I wouldn't remember exactly which book it was mentioned in except that it couldn't have been before Book 4 and was probably not after Book 6. If that was an Aiel channeler at the end, that makes a lot of sense to me as a pretty enormous thing that was, essentially, "missed".

 

Just my thought.

 

 

To be tolerant, I offer that the BUT may have been specifically about the inscription - specifically, "What was asked is given. The price is paid." and how Mat didn't ask for a weapon, but "a way out".

 

As to the red-veiled person at the end, I find "Aiel male channie DFs/13x13s" to be unlikely in this case, absurd-until-proven. As others have pointed out, this person did not channel, did not act Aiel, and in fact removed his veil to kill, rather than raising his veil to kill. We would have to have either the Blank In The Blight be a city of corrupted Aiel, or a City Of Dreadlords With A Portal Stone They Know How To Use Properly.

 

(Speaking of which, I would not be surprised if the Blank In The Blight involves a Portal Stone - it neatly explains all sorts of things, including that there are more Trollocs than there is room in the Blight to keep them fed. Explains the sheer quantities of Shadowspawn during the Trolloc Wars, etc)

[KyleLitke]

I'm about halfway through this thread but wanted to mention this before I keep going...if people already came to a consensus about this or someone already confirmed/denied, my apologies.

 

In regards to the big unnoticed thing...I finished the book and still didn't get it. My initial thought was Mat's ashandarei simply because as far as I knew, nobody actually thought it was more than what it initially appeared. But I will say I had one problem with it...when I first heard about the big unnoticed thing, I read it as "it happened sometime in books 4-6, not positive which one" and not some big hint of "Okay, folks, it happened sometime in Books 4-6...get reading! I'm not narrowing it down further!". And look, I don't pretend I know everything about the story. I've been reading these books for most of my life and I love them, but I mix up which books things happen in all the time. But that? Mat visiting the foxes in Rhuidean and getting cut down by Rand? Book 4. Would never even have to think twice. That would be as odd to me as someone saying "You know, when Mat blew the horn...I dunno, it was in Book 2 or 3, maybe 4". The whole journey to the Waste is so integral to Book 4 that I have a hard time believing someone who was taking the time to talk about WoT (or, if Brandon said it, to WRITE IT), actually thought they might have gone to Rhuidean in Book 6.

 

So I didn't know, but reading through this thread, I caught mmcg's post in the middle, and now I kind of think that was it. I don't think any thought at all has been given to the Aiel sending male channelers to the Blight, and I wouldn't remember exactly which book it was mentioned in except that it couldn't have been before Book 4 and was probably not after Book 6. If that was an Aiel channeler at the end, that makes a lot of sense to me as a pretty enormous thing that was, essentially, "missed".

 

Just my thought.

 

 

To be tolerant, I offer that the BUT may have been specifically about the inscription - specifically, "What was asked is given. The price is paid." and how Mat didn't ask for a weapon, but "a way out".

 

As to the red-veiled person at the end, I find "Aiel male channie DFs/13x13s" to be unlikely in this case, absurd-until-proven. As others have pointed out, this person did not channel, did not act Aiel, and in fact removed his veil to kill, rather than raising his veil to kill. We would have to have either the Blank In The Blight be a city of corrupted Aiel, or a City Of Dreadlords With A Portal Stone They Know How To Use Properly.

 

(Speaking of which, I would not be surprised if the Blank In The Blight involves a Portal Stone - it neatly explains all sorts of things, including that there are more Trollocs than there is room in the Blight to keep them fed. Explains the sheer quantities of Shadowspawn during the Trolloc Wars, etc)

 

Sure, but we also have no real idea HOW they'd act at this point. They've presumably either been turned via 13x13 or corrupted in some other way (they could be insane), and could barely be recognizable as Aiel anymore. I'm not saying this is the BUT for sure, but I think it's a possibility.

 

I'll have to see what the original comment on the BUT was too. If it's a hint ("Okay, it's in Book 4-6 but I'm not narrowing it down more") as opposed to "I can't remember which book it was in", then it might be the ashandarei, but I just have a hard time believing someone could possibly think Mat got the ashandarei in any book other than 4. It's so ridiculously important to the character (not necessarily the ashandarei but the circumstances around him getting it) and the Waste was what the entire non Perrin, non Nynaeve part of the book was about, it just would surprise me very much that someone could confuse it and think he might have gone through the doorway in Book 6. I'm not trying to sound all "Oh, I know more about the books than them!"...I always mix up when things happen, but man, I don't know how I could possibly think that happened somewhere else. For me it'd be like saying "Hey, didn't Rand kill Ishamael in Book 7? I can't remember, it was one of those books, 3 through 7 or something".

 

But if it was supposed to be just a hint, as in it's in one of those books but I'm not specifying which one, then okay. That I could understand.

 

EDIT: Okay, I read the FAQ mentioning it and assuming accuracy, now I don't think it's either one. The FAQ says Brandon couldn't remember what book it was in (4-6), but that it's something that "started in Books 4-6" and "continued throughout the series". In which case I don't buy the ashandarei (it EXISTED throughout the series but the wording of what he said doesn't sound at all right for the spear...the writing on it just happened, it didn't "start and continue"...plus, come on, the bloody writer of the final books of the series couldn't remember Mat got hung in Book 4??), but the Aiel don't make sense either (even if that was them, it's not really something that "started" in Book 4-6 and it didn't "continue through the series"). So now I have no clue.

 

Hopefully someone who knows for sure clues us in as to exactly what it was.

[Rasputin]

Grady's kid is ugly. Anyone else either assuming or really hoping it's Gaidal Cain?

[Darth Krewl]

1. Is Lanfear a good girl all of a sudden, who will give Rand exact directions on how to seal the Bore?

 

Lanfear is not repentant. Signs are clear enough to indicate that this woman (no matter how cool she was PRE-Cyndane) is as evil and rotten to the core as they come. She was one of the first to turn and the second to break free after Ishamael. She was also the ONLY one among the Forsaken to choose her name under the Shadow. So, it's a trap.

 

But even if it wasn't, Rand doesn't give a hoot about resealing the Bore. He means to kill the Dark One. When you have vermin in your house, you don't take them outside. You exterminate them, lest you want the plague back. Makes perfect sense.

 

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

[KyleLitke]

So I was just reading through the Glossary, and I came across Imfaral, which is the "sixth largest city in Seanchan, and is home to the Towers of Midnight". Then the entry for "The Towers of Midnight" mentions it being 13 fortresses of black marble, located in Imfaral, Seanchan. It's been unoccupied since the Consolidation, when it was the center of military might and the place where the final battle of the Consolidation took place. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Inperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong".

 

So, umm...wha? I don't recall that even being mentioned in the book at all. I assumed Towers of Midnight referred to the Forsaken (via Egwene's dream) or maybe the towers of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, and it might, but that seems really odd to be thrown into the Glossary like that. Red herring? Significant?

[smileyman]

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

I think it's pretty clear that the halls of mourning was the TOG. What do the Sankes and Foxes feed on? Emotions. What emotions do they like best of all? Pain and suffering--which is close enough to mourning for me.

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

I think it's referring to Rand, but remember the prophecies aren't always of what must be. I think that the wolves gathering gives an indication of this--had Rand not turned away from the darkness he would have become the Broken Champion, but he mastered that test and became whole.

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

There's a certain kind of pride that comes from refusing to do what you know is right for selfish reasons. Perrin's been exhibiting that pride throughout the series, refusing to be acknowledged as leader of the Two Rivers and the associated refugees, as well as refusing to full acknowledge the wolf side of himself. That pride definitely fell when he forged a Weapon of Power and became fully the Thor archetype.

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

I don't think it's Lan. The Glossary very specifically identifies the Towers of Midnight as being 13 Towers in Seanchan where legend has it that the royal family will retreat to in a time of emergency and 'right that which was wronged'. Well we know of someone who has ties to the royal family with his marriage. He's definitely known death, having been hanged as well having memories of lifetimes of wars. He's also an Odin archetype, which is very interesting. Everybody knows about the ravens, but Odin has also been associated with wolves, specifically two wolves named Geri and Freki. He's definitely broken right now, what with having given up an eye.

 

It could also refer to Perrin or Elyas even, but I don't think so, not with the Seanchan connection.

[Sharaman]

Contradictory descriptions - dark eyes, red veils and they take the veils off before killing.

Mind we don't even know they are channelers.

 

 

Contradictory to what?

 

Dark eyes, red veils and taking the veils off before killing means they can't be Aiel twisted by the Shadow? Or Aiel bred in the blight? Why is this, exactly?

 

And what else would they be? Sharans, impersonating Aiel?

 

Or were you saying that in reference to my bold claim of them being Gholam? :p

 

Aiel generally have light eyes. They wear black veils. They put the veils on before killing people.

They could be a lot of things including Aiel Darkfriends - but the descriptions are contradictory to what we've seen of Aiel appearance and behaviour.

There's nobody around who can make gholam anymore. Although two more male gholam were made, the descriptions don't fit the gholam either

[Behn]

Here are some things that I need to get off my chest. I am going to write this again, because the first time before I could post I lost the whole thing, so now I am starting over. Here goes.

Greandal killed Asmo. There were some neat hints in the text, but I knew it would be in the glossery at the end. One of the podcasts that came out shortly before the book warned not to read the glossery until after the main story was finished. I read the whole thing waiting and then there it was in black and white. So great, we should have been more specific though and asked not about who did it but how and why. That is still up for debate, so though one thing is ended there is still more for debate. I don't think this thing with Asmo will ever really end.

 

I agree with what was said earlier about the red veiled sharp toothed aiel. I think they are the men that can channel and were sent into the blight. There are some problems with it. Who did it since you need 13, but they could have been black sisters. And some freaky stuff does happen in the blight. Slayer and Fain to name two. But I was wondering, if it is the male channeling aiel, then what is happening in the black tower. There is some invasion of the body snachers stuff going on there for sure. Those men, and by the looks of it women as well, are changing. If it is the 13x13 that makes the aiel then why don't the men and now some of the red sisters in the black tower act that insane? It could be the aiel living in the blight or something there as i said earlier but I just don't know.

 

I like the idea of the dreamspikes. I have for a long time wondered how someone in the breaking could protect themselves and their hiding places from Traveling. I guess this explains it. But when did the dreamspike, if thats what it is, show up at the black tower. When we first read about the black tower in this book, the dedicated making leather used a gateway to cut the leather he was working on. It is later when the gateways stop working. Does anyone have a theory on when this happened? I don't think Taim left, he could have, but it I don't remember.

 

I have some issues with the writing that I want to talk about as well. I HATED the mention of "two years" ago to explain how long it has been since this series started. The first time it came up in the book it bothered me, and then each time it came up, it bothered me more and more. Then it was 5 times and I lost count. I don't ever recall time being described that way, and then with so many times in one book...well it just stuck out like a sore thumb. There was also the description of a trolloc I think as nine feet tall. That didn't seem right either, it was always someting more like half again as tall as a man or head and shoulders taller or something like that. And when the word transmigrated showed up I lost it. That is the term we use here, it is not something that someone in the wheel of time should say. That could be Brandon or RJ's way of writting it, either way I didn't like it. It took me out of the story, and that's what a writer should be trying to avoid.

 

Then there were the spelling mistakes. I don't know about you all, but I noticed a bunch. An aes sedai was refered to as a "he", Thom was spelt "Tom" in one paragraph, and there was some weird phrasing in one of the female POV's where they put the same word both before and after another word and the sentence made no sense. The word, which I can't recall right now, should have been either before OR after the other word and it makes sense. Not both.

 

I didn't like the timeline in this book. It took me forever to figure out when it was all going to pull together. Some of the scenes were less dramatic because of this. I knew Perrin and Galad were going to be seen together, but because I couldn't remember exactly when that all took place, and I knew Tam had to be picked up, I had no fear that they would come to blows.

 

I hated Nynaeve's testing. I agree that she needed to be tested. I don't think you are aes sedai even with the oaths until you have been tested. But I am a big fan of New Spring and this was nothing compared to what Moiraine went through. I remember when New Spring came out we were told that there would be things in it that won't happen in the main series, the testing being one of those things. Then it showed up here, and I was excited. But while I read it, I couldn't care less. I just wasn't feeling it. I didn't care one way or another. I expected her to fail or die, and yet I just couldn't care about the people dying around her. The scene just didn't have any substance. Not like in New Spring.

 

I did like the nod to Dragonmount and the inn keeper Denezel. I wonder how may other nods there were that I didn't catch. One of the podcasts mentioned Azi but I don't know who that is. There must be others.

 

And was it just me or was the Mesaana/Egwene battle anti climactic. Nicola's death seemed odd. I wanted to feel something for the girl, and it seemed fitting what Egwene said about her always trying to go further than she should, but there seems like there should have been more. Finding out who Mesaana was should have felt like a big deal, but that too didn't pan out. I think I would have liked to know more like with Asmo's death, there were the facts around Mesaana that should have been answered. Most importantly how she defeated the oath rod. I just always assumed it was because she didn't think of herself as a darkfriend. Sometimes the simplest explaination is the right one.

 

Elayne, Gawyn, and Galad all find out their mother is alive. That was what I most wanted to see, and when it happened. No tears, no feeling either way. I don't know why but I just didn't feel anything during this book. In tGS I cried when Verin died. I got heart sick when I thought that Leane was going to die in the basement but I couldn't even feel anyting for poor Hopper. The only emotion I really felt was when we were seeing the end of the Aiel. And that mostly because it seemed more of a spoiler than anything else.

 

This all sounds so negative. I really did enjoy the book. There were just the things I needed to get off my chest, and you people are the only ones I can talk to about this. There is probably more but that is all for now. So what about the rest of you...?

[Tai'daishar]

Could someone please tell me where in this flaming thread the real discussion starts!? I have been skimming through page after bloody page looking for someone who wants to discuss what actually happened and not go through page after page of people who didn't read the bloody thing asking. "Did this happen?" "Did this other thing happen?" I did read the bloody thing and now I need to talk to those about what did happen, and what we think is going to happen, based on what we READ. I don't care if you want spoilers before you read it, I think that's insane, but its your own business. But come on! I understand that this is a spoiler forum, but that just doesn't mean all it is about is getting the juice without eating the bloody fruit. Please let me know where the good stuff is so I can join a real discussion.

 

I've been lurking for a long time, finally made an account b/c I seriously need people to discuss ToM with. So here's a random thing that has been bothering me: How did Olver win at snakes and foxes in his PoV chapter? It doesn't seem like he cheated (bc he seems genuinely happy to win) , though maybe he did (since it shouldn't be mathematically winable otherwise). Did Mat messing with the ToG have some kind of effect on the game? Is it another instance of the pattern weakening? Is it significant? ...Or am i just obsessed with something totally irrelevant?

[sdelu]

i already said, the broken wolf is jain farstrider, and he died in the midnight towers already

 

Well. That settles that. :P

 

That's only if you assume the "Midnight Towers" refers to the tower of Ghenjei. It makes more sense that it refers to the Forsaken, considering Egwene's dream. That said, if it refers to the Tower of Ghenjei, then yeah, Jain is the obvious one, although I don't get why he'd be a "wolf". The rest could fit since Ishamael broke him (essentially) and since he appears to have "fallen".

 

I don't think they refer to tower of Genjei. I thought, what with my connection to Lan, that might refer to the seven towers of Malkier, which have been overrun by the Shadow...

 

But Jain Farstrider? Nobody even knows he's alive! How will that make ANYONE sad? I know these things aren't meant to be literal, but there should be something to it, at least.

 

 

 

I think it's pretty clear that the halls of mourning was the TOG. What do the Sankes and Foxes feed on? Emotions. What emotions do they like best of all? Pain and suffering--which is close enough to mourning for me.

 

Makes sense.

 

 

I think it's referring to Rand, but remember the prophecies aren't always of what must be. I think that the wolves gathering gives an indication of this--had Rand not turned away from the darkness he would have become the Broken Champion, but he mastered that test and became whole.

 

Hm. I find it odd that they'd use 2 names for the same person in the same prophecy. Not impossible, but odd. As for whether or not he's the Broken Champion, well, nobody said he's going to STAY whole. Still, though, I can't help but feel the "broken champion" and the "first among vermin" are different.

 

I also wonder if the genders aren't all that important in this prophecy... First Among Vermin could refer to leader of the Aes Sedai perhaps?

 

 

There's a certain kind of pride that comes from refusing to do what you know is right for selfish reasons. Perrin's been exhibiting that pride throughout the series, refusing to be acknowledged as leader of the Two Rivers and the associated refugees, as well as refusing to full acknowledge the wolf side of himself. That pride definitely fell when he forged a Weapon of Power and became fully the Thor archetype.

 

I'm not sure I buy that, only because it sounds more ominous. Could be, though.

 

 

I don't think it's Lan. The Glossary very specifically identifies the Towers of Midnight as being 13 Towers in Seanchan where legend has it that the royal family will retreat to in a time of emergency and 'right that which was wronged'. Well we know of someone who has ties to the royal family with his marriage. He's definitely known death, having been hanged as well having memories of lifetimes of wars. He's also an Odin archetype, which is very interesting. Everybody knows about the ravens, but Odin has also been associated with wolves, specifically two wolves named Geri and Freki. He's definitely broken right now, what with having given up an eye.

 

It could also refer to Perrin or Elyas even, but I don't think so, not with the Seanchan connection.

 

We don't know that the ToM are the same as the "Midnight Towers." I don't see why they'd have a prophecy dealing with Seanchan when RJ had no intention of going to Seanchan. Plus, I'm fairly certain Mat wouldn't go back to Seanchan with the LB to fight. The Odin thing is interesting, but tenuous, only because he's never been referred to as a wolf before.

 

The biggest problem I have is that the One-Eyed Fool is definitely Mat, but the Broken Wolf is referenced in a way that makes it seem a different person. If the One-Eyed Fool walking the halls of mourning is a marker of when the Broken Wolf will fall, why wouldn't they be called the same? And if the Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin, why refer to him as the Broken Wolf (plus, he's not broken any more). Eck!

 

You could make an argument for plenty of characters here... this could even be Rand (he has known death through LTT), and he would be consumed by the ToM (seanchan) or the Forsaken (Egwene's dream). And certainly his death would bring fear and sorrow...

 

But I still think it's Lan; he's the only one I can think of that's important enough that his death would bring sorrow that isn't Rand (yes, perhaps I'm going too literal still). Honestly, Mat isn't really well known enough to affect the hearts of men (except the BOTRH) and Perrin is only known by his small army.

 

So for now I stick with Lan. Unless Rand goes to save him... which he might:

 

Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs"

 

Lan and Rand make a last stand? That'd be my favorite scene ever if it happened. Too bad it's probably some other people.

[Tai'daishar]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

thoughts?

 

i already said, the broken wolf is jain farstrider, and he died in the midnight towers already

 

That's only if you assume the "Midnight Towers" refers to the tower of Ghenjei. It makes more sense that it refers to the Forsaken, considering Egwene's dream. That said, if it refers to the Tower of Ghenjei, then yeah, Jain is the obvious one, although I don't get why he'd be a "wolf". The rest could fit since Ishamael broke him (essentially) and since he appears to have "fallen".

 

my thoughts: Towers of Midnight means the Forsaken (though literally, they're the towers in Seanchan) b/c of Eggy's dream. 13 Forsaken, half fallen (dead) one broken then rising higher than the rest (Ishmael dies, then becomes Nae'blis (sp?)) It seams to me that the key is that these prophesies are not "what will happen", rather, they are "what needs to happen for the Dark to win." That explains, to me at least, why Ishy wants Perrin dead so badly, bc his death is a key part of this Dark prophesy.