Discuss The Full Book

[WhiskyJack]

Back on topic -- were there any EPIC moments in ToM, aside from the (potentially epic) rescuing of Moiraine?

 

Yes, Perrin forging his hammer was pretty epic for me, especially after he named it. ;)

 

Also, first power forged weapon made in a very long time.

 

 

Dreamspike?

 

If you are referring to the hammer name, no. One of my friends has my copy of the book and is reading it now, but the name is something like M'hallneir or something like that. Think Mjollnir if you know Norse mythology.

 

 

-------

 

 

On a separate note, lets talk again about Rand cleansing Saidin.

 

We know that when he cleansed Saidin, he channeled A LOT of Saidin into Shadar Logoth where it was attracted to the evil of Shadar Logoth. At that point, it continued pouring into Shadar Logoth on its own.

 

So, we have Fain heading to Shayol Gul to apparently kill Rand and/or the DO. He now embodies the evil of Shadar Logoth. So what happens when we channel the True Power with the Dark One's taint into Fain. Would it not then follow that the rest of the DO's taint would follow after it? So, theoretically, they could put the DO back into his prison or make a new prison after he has been released. "The rubble must be cleared" seems to fit with this. In which case, we get the DO's prison sealed as it was before the bore was drilled which fits in with how time works in the series.

 

Another interesting thing in this same area that I have to note is this. Fain has been cutting his fingers and bleeding all over the place recently. The Dragon's blood will be spilled at Shayol Gul. The Dark Prophecy in "The Great Hunt" talks about "Blood calls blood. Blood feeds blood. Blood is and blood was and blood ever shall be." Coincidence? I am thinking not.

 

Well we have seen Fain running like chicken every time he faces Rand so him personally I would not put my money on. He is Mordethain and Mordeth was not Mashadar. A knife will do Fain.

 

 

There is some a shadow prophecy claiming that DO will spill Dragon's blood. Unless Fain takes that mantle...

[Beren]

Dreamspike is a ter'angreal that stops the formation of gateways or something like that. I was curious about the power based weapon you mentioned.

I was talking about Perrin's hammer being the first power wrought weapon in a long time. Neald in a circle with Grady, several Aes Sedai and several Wise Ones took part in strengthening the hammer as Perrin forged it. It exhausted them all afterwards. It also seemed to Perrin that he was putting part of himself into the hammer. That is what I was referring to.

 

Also, Mashadar is now following Fain around apparently or he has recreated it, at least from what we can see in the prologue.

[Elend]

I'm pretty curious as to whether Perrin's thoughts that he put himself into the weapon could mean it has abilities beyond the usual power-wrought stuff. It'd be pretty sweet if it gave him some kind of ranged shockwave ability, if only because distance is one thing Perrin's never been shown to handle particularly well, instead choosing the "charge in and attack" method.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm pretty curious as to whether Perrin's thoughts that he put himself into the weapon could mean it has abilities beyond the usual power-wrought stuff. It'd be pretty sweet if it gave him some kind of ranged shockwave ability, if only because distance is one thing Perrin's never been shown to handle particularly well, instead choosing the "charge in and attack" method.

 

Well, he is supposed to be Thor and that is supposed to be Thor's Hammer, so...

[Diederichos]

So something happens with Olver...is he a darkfriend? Does he die? Get trampled by a horse? One of the Chosen in disguise?

You might say he is the victim of a very, very horrible mistake on the part of at least two distinct people.

 

I was thinking if Mat actually made the wrong choice ;)

He certainly did. He should have taken Valan Luca with him into Ghenjei, obviously.

 

Perrin and Rand seem to have finished their character development/maturing/going where the Wheel needs them to be(to steal from an earlier poster). Does the same seem to have happened with Mat or does he seem...'unfinished'.

 

Bumps just in case someone has an opinion of this.

Mat's role...I think we get a really clear view of it in this book. It's exciting. We knew he was important, but i"m not sure if we realized how important he is.

 

What do you mean, what idea do we get as to his orle and 'how important', that sounds like some super reveal or something? All in all you'd say there is more progression that needs to be done by him?

[dfchang]

Mat has no "super reveal." The Seanchan are being set up as a significant problem both before and after the Last Battle and Mat's role as the Prince of the Ravens may be very important to make sure that Creation isn't being saved from the Dark One only to be given on a silver platter to the Nazis ummm . . . I mean the Seanchan.

[dfchang]

A few of you asked for "EPIC" moments in this book. I'll cut and past from my original post over at the Theoryland spoiler board. Some of this may not meet your personal definition of EPIC but these were moments I enjoyed immensely, brought a smile to my face, sent a shiver down my spine, etc.

 

This is MASSIVE spoilers though so please be warned. I'm essentially giving away many of the BEST moments of the book.

 

Here goes:

 

 

 

 

 

This book is choke full of them so I thought I'd list my favorites:

 

In no particular order:

 

1. Rand walks into the White Tower and gets everyone but Egwene pissing their collective pants.

 

2. Rand Al'Thor kicks the ever-living shit out of 100,000 plus Shadowspawn BY HIMSELF. One of the truly holy shit moments of the entire series right there. Sent chills down my spine.

 

3. Ituralde putting together one of the great resistances of all time before being rescued by Bashere. The respect that Bashere gives Ituralde is awesome as well.

 

4. Gawyn Trakand drops three Bloodknives AT THE SAME TIME and winds up killing the last two IN THE DARK. Oh and pulls a Heron Wading in the Rushes for the last kill. This EPIC sequence cements Gawyn's status as the deadliest blade in Randland next to Lan himself. Also makes up for ohhhhh about NINE BOOKS worth of doucheassery so trust me this sequence is pretty awesome to be able to do that. (I hated his guts before this book and ended up respecting him)

 

5. Perrin and Slayer hand to hand fighting by flickering in and out in the World of Dreams.

 

6. Perrin DEFLECTING BALEFIRE and then warning Egwene that "it's dangerous in here" before leaving her. Soooo epic.

 

7. Mat screaming Tylin and Nalesean's name while he PUSHES BACK the greatest killing machine of all time into a skimmer doorway before pushing him off to fall forever through the Void.

 

8. Perrin forging Mah'alleinir while a CIRCLE of Ashaman,Aes Sedai,and Wise Ones make this the baddest ass power wrought hammer of all time. Then he uses it a chapter later to smash Trollocs and Myrdraal like ants.

 

10. Rand Al Thor putting Cadsuane in her place . . . one of the MOST EPIC paragraphs in this entire series bar none. Worthy of a sig when the spoiler protection window ends. P.S.: Cadsuane is PROUD OF HIM.

 

11. Egwene stares down Mesaana in Tel'rhan'Rhiod and crushes her mind like a grape.

 

12. Nynaeve saying "F U" to her testers and unleashes balefire to save a Lan that is NOT EVEN REAL.

 

13. Right afterwards, Nynaeve lets Myrelle know she is not to be F'ed with and gets Lan's bond in the most badass way you can imagine.

 

14. The ENTIRE TOWER OF GHENJEI sequence which lives up to 15 plus years of hype as you realize that Mat has now transcended badassness and simply defines it. He is now simply the Buddha of Badass. Trust me, I know. I looked up "badass" in the dictionary and saw Darrell K Sweet's picture of Mat there.

 

I'm sure there's more, let's hear it!

 

Dennis

[Fury000]

who did lead the circle when they did create the powerwrought hammer? I guess no Aes Sedai as they have a restricition.

[Sharaman]

who did lead the circle when they did create the powerwrought hammer? I guess no Aes Sedai as they have a restricition.

It's a saidin-saidar circle.

[Sharaman]

Anybody thought about the implications that Avi sees a vision that's only 17-18 years in the future but she doesn't feature in it herself as a WO of the Taardaad. The rest of that sequence suggests she and Rand survive TG but the implication for me is, she dies fairly soon afterwords. Unless of course, the ter'angreal works such that it shows visions of the same blood that occur even while the person looking into it is still alive.

Of course, Avi's granddaughter remembers her face, which is further time-scrambling.

Confusing! Is this an extended series of possibilities because it reaches far into the future or is it written in stone because she will surely do what she can to avert it?

[Jeangray]

Anybody thought about the implications that Avi sees a vision that's only 17-18 years in the future but she doesn't feature in it herself as a WO of the Taardaad.

 

Well, not only that, but seemingly nobody from the main characters is still alive at this point, even those who should be around for centuries barring violent death. There is a lot of other implausible and incongrous stuff too. IMHO, it is more an Acceptatron-like experience - a cautionary tale drawn from what Avendha knows and her musings about the future of the Aiel, rather than a real foreshadowing.

 

But what was that strange woman who talked to Avi in the Waste and then vanished without a trace? Was it some kind of vision or a super-secret surviving Jenn or what? Or did Avi stumble into T'AR somehow and give face and voice to her own doubts?

[Sharaman]

No she's not in TAR.

Edit: Barring violent death, the major characters should all be around given that they're in their teens and early 20s mostly.

I'm thinking of requesting a couple of threads on this full spoiler board?

One is resolved plotlines (Moiraine, gholam, Asmo,--) and the other is new loose ends (Avi's arc, what we now know about TP-OP and TAR, the red-veils, the BT arc, Verin's latter to Rand via Tiana). This full book thread is gonna rapidly become far too unwieldy for meaningful discussion.

[Jeangray]

 

Edit: Barring violent death, the major characters should all be around given that they're in their teens and early 20s mostly.

 

Yet clearly they are not in the vision and neither is Tuon. Which is one of the reasons why I can't believe that it is a true foreshadowing of the future.

 

Re: the strange Aielwoman Nakomi, the incredibly delicious food that was prepared in implausibly short time seems very T'AR-like to me. But if not - who is she?

 

I'm thinking of requesting a couple of threads on this full spoiler board?

 

Great idea!

 

P.S. Another thing occured to me - wasn't the Waygate in Caemlyn warded by Rand himself? Then doesn't the fact that it is not safe in conjunction with appearance of Cyndane in Rand's warded dream suggest that Moridin has control other Rand's wards, because of their connection?

[Terez]

Edit: Barring violent death, the major characters should all be around given that they're in their teens and early 20s mostly.

 

Yet clearly they are not in the vision and neither is Tuon.

She was mentioned in it.

 

This is the problem with people trying to theorize when they haven't even read the book.

 

Another thing occured to me - wasn't the Waygate in Caemlyn warded by Rand himself?

No. He put guards on it.

[Terez]

who did lead the circle when they did create the powerwrought hammer? I guess no Aes Sedai as they have a restricition.

There were no Aes Sedai in the circle, only Wise Ones. Brandon said that it probably wouldn't work if there were Oath-bound Aes Sedai in the circle.

[Terez]

Keep in mind, people...not everyone who has read the book has a brain.

[Jeangray]

 

She was mentioned in it.

 

This is the problem with people trying to theorize when they haven't even read the book.

 

Terez, she is mentioned as the "old Empress who ruled during the TG and with whom the accommodation had almost been reached". It is clear that she didn't survive TG by much and that by Padra's time (a generation after the Last Battle when Tuon should have been about 40) somebody else was ruling the Seanchan. Which implies Mat's death too, IMHO, as I don't see him clinging to damane/slavery tradition. And I do have the book and read it from beginning to the end, thank you.

 

No. He put guards on it.

 

What guards? Rand was in Caemlyn for long periods of time and he knew lethal wards that would affect only Shadowspawn. Why on earth wouldn't he have warded Caemlyn Waygate? It was the Waygates near Ogier steddings that were supposed to get Ogier guards. Not that I ever understood why Rand thought that those guards could be any use...

[Crael123]

Dennis just reading number 7 gave me chills. I NEED BOOK NOOOOOOOOW

[b3arz3rg3r]

Just finished the book. So much awesome on 800 something pages.

 

Some disjointed thoughts

 

- You go Rand Sedai, but in all your awesomeness you really shouldn't put off dealing with the BT. The interest you'll have to pay increases with each day.

 

- Perrin showing Egwene that common Dreamwalkers are nothing compared to Wolfdreamers had me laughing for five minutes. All the times she's been so smug about her knowledge and then he just arrives and shows her she's a little league player at best compared to him. Oh and while you may profess to become Elayne's vassal, you did forge the hammer of a king. And a king isn't anyone else's subject. Two Saldhean is coming whether you or Elayne want it or not.

 

- Elayne, girl, your carelessness will be the end of the world. First that huge blunder with Mat's medallion, even a bad copy could be the doom of channelers should it end up in the hands of the seanchan who have shown the ability to massproduce ter'angreal and then she hides all those Dragons in a warehouse where they are just ready and waiting for the trollocs to pick them up and use them against the forces of the light

 

- Mat, you rule, too bad about that letter though. I expect plenty more from you in AMOL.

 

- Egwene you are dancing in palm of Rand's hand. You intend to oppose him out of ignorance, if for the best of intentions, but in the end you only do the tedious work of getting everyone in place for Rand to adress them.

 

- There are so many potential catastrophes at the end I can't wait to see what will happen in the beginning of AMOL, Lan's suicide charge, the trollocs overrunning Caemlyn and about to kill Olver and the Band- what is with that by the way wasn't there a limit on how many trollocs could cross the ways at the same time because of Machin Shin?, the Seanchan poised to wipe out Tar Valon.

 

- Graendal, you fail. Had you gone there yourself, killing Perrin wouldn't have been all that hard for you. Instead you continued your games and now you're SH's plaything until he finally is bored enough of you to kill you.

[Jeangray]

 

 

- Perrin showing Egwene that common Dreamwalkers are nothing compared to Wolfdreamers had me laughing for five minutes.

 

IMHO, it is all a matter of perspective. Weapons are more real to Perrin in T'AR than weaves and he can be hurt by them. Once Egwene saw how he overcame weaves by simple disbelief, she was able to follow suit. But since she was a channeler before she was a Dreamwalker, it is logical that something like this would have never occurred to her. Also, being tutored by a native of T'AR who didn't hedge him with tons of silly restrictions like the WOs did Egwene was a definite advantage.

[DottieGirl]

Just finished the book. So much awesome on 800 something pages.

 

Lan's suicide charge

I wonder if this will be a true suicide charge now that Nynaeve finally has his bond. I could just imagine her, feeling her husband/Warder's peril, leading her to Travel to him (either by herself or with help) and annihilating a charging army of Trollocs with her newly found talent of flinging around BF to save the one she loves. I know she isn't as powerful as Rand, of course, but Trollocs broke before balefire in Caemlyn when Rand was using very weak streams of it. I can imagine her, using that bracelet angreal she has, causing enormous devastation to an army of Shadowspawn (unless they have Dreadlords or FS to fight her).

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

 

- Perrin showing Egwene that common Dreamwalkers are nothing compared to Wolfdreamers had me laughing for five minutes.

 

IMHO, it is all a matter of perspective. Weapons are more real to Perrin in T'AR than weaves and he can be hurt by them. Once Egwene saw how he overcame weaves by simple disbelief, she was able to follow suit. But since she was a channeler before she was a Dreamwalker, it is logical that something like this would have never occurred to her. Also, being tutored by a native of T'AR who didn't hedge him with tons of silly restrictions like the WOs did Egwene was a definite advantage.

 

It's not just that. The force he can exert on TAR is stronger, that was shown by the ease with which he handled Egwene. He may be limited in some ways, but in TAR he is stronger than anyone except Slayer.

 

Just finished the book. So much awesome on 800 something pages.

 

Lan's suicide charge

I wonder if this will be a true suicide charge now that Nynaeve finally has his bond. I could just imagine her, feeling her husband/Warder's peril, leading her to Travel to him (either by herself or with help) and annihilating a charging army of Trollocs with her newly found talent of flinging around BF to save the one she loves. I know she isn't as powerful as Rand, of course, but Trollocs broke before balefire in Caemlyn when Rand was using very weak streams of it. I can imagine her, using that bracelet angreal she has, causing enormous devastation to an army of Shadowspawn (unless they have Dreadlords or FS to fight her).

 

I doubt Lan will die so easily, but like I said there are a number of disaster cliffhangers at the end of ToM. Whether it's Rand appearing or Nyneave or the army of borderlanders to save Lan we'll see. Though I doubt it will be Rand, his comment after SOL made me think that he won't take part on the battlefield in AMOL.

[Jeangray]

The force he can exert on TAR is stronger, that was shown by the ease with which he handled Egwene. He may be limited in some ways, but in TAR he is stronger than anyone except Slayer.

 

Eh, it isn't like Egwene was exerting herself either since she thought him a novice. Anyway, maybe, maybe not. Certainly, having a "native" tutor and all these wolf senses are a big advantage. But not all Wolfbrothers are so talented - Elyas, apparently, isn't. Also, Perrin couldn't find people's dreams so far and isn't big on prophetic dreams, particularly those he knows the meaning of.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The force he can exert on TAR is stronger, that was shown by the ease with which he handled Egwene. He may be limited in some ways, but in TAR he is stronger than anyone except Slayer.

 

Eh, it isn't like Egwene was exerting herself either since she thought him a novice. Anyway, maybe, maybe not. Certainly, having a "native" tutor and all these wolf senses are a big advantage. But not all Wolfbrothers are so talented - Elyas, apparently, isn't. Also, Perrin couldn't find people's dreams so far and isn't big on prophetic dreams, particularly those he knows the meaning of.

 

I did say he was limited. His realm is TAR and TAR only, he has nothing to do with dreams which don't reach it so he wouldn't be able to find them. Of course his wolfnature is an advantage, it's what sets him apart from common dreamwalkers. As for those prophetic dreams, it's just not his nature to bother with them. Perrin is very solid in his reality. He doesn't worry about visions, because once those visions become reality he'll just deal with them and that's that.

[JenniferL]

WhiskeyJack, you are not a moderator. Stop pretending you are one.