Moridin vs Demandred

[Jblaylock]

SPOILER ALERT FOR ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ AS FAR AS THE LORD OF CHAOS.

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In the prologue to (I believe it was) LOC, the DO speaks to Demandred, asks him if he would be nae'blis, and asks him if he would wield balefire. Then, Demandred sort of vanishes from the book for a while. Moridin appears, Moridin is nae'blis, and Moridin wields balefire, which crosses with Rand's when destroying Sammael.

 

Has this been explained? Why was this position offered to Demandred but then given to Moridin, who is supposedly the resurrected Ishamael, without any explaination as to why?

 

Or was their an explaination that I just missed?

[Jblaylock]

*Bump

 

 

Any thoughts? I'm dying to understand, or hear some ideas on this. I have no clue, myself. Unless it's possible that Moridin is Demandred, and has just been missleading people. But I doubt that.

[SkeletorOnCrack]

Moridin/Ishy was pretty much always Nae'blis. I think it was just a formality that the DO made it official. Demandred and Moridin are seen together in a later book with Moridin definitely giving the orders. I believe Demandred also takes orders from Shaidar Haran at some point. I don't see the Nae'blis taking orders from anybody short of the DO.

 

They are not one in the same.

 

As to why the DO tempted Dem with the title... That could be answered in any number of imaginative ways

[Barid Bel Medar]

SPOILER ALERT FOR ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ AS FAR AS THE LORD OF CHAOS.

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In the prologue to (I believe it was) LOC, the DO speaks to Demandred, asks him if he would be nae'blis, and asks him if he would wield balefire. Then, Demandred sort of vanishes from the book for a while. Moridin appears, Moridin is nae'blis, and Moridin wields balefire, which crosses with Rand's when destroying Sammael.

 

Has this been explained? Why was this position offered to Demandred but then given to Moridin, who is supposedly the resurrected Ishamael, without any explaination as to why?

 

Or was their an explaination that I just missed?

 

I think you are getting a bit mixed up.

 

the Balefire and nae'bis are two separate things.

 

Even the Forsaken are terrified of using Balefire. So the DO was saying "would you do it even though your scared of it" It is not a privelage.

 

The DO wasnt exactly offering. He didnt write down a legal contract saying you will be nae'blis. It was just him saying "would you be nae'blis?" I can make it happen.

 

Other than that, the DO can do whatever he wants really. He could promise everything (which he does) and give nothing (which he will). So there kinda doesnt have to be an explaination, he can chose whoever he wants to be nae'blis.

 

Hopefully that clears things up a bit for you.

[Xader]

Who can know the will of the Great Lord?

 

Have you read TGS?

[jdbond]

DO works in mysterious ways I guess. Who knows how the hell he passes his time?

[Jblaylock]

Who can know the will of the Great Lord?

 

Have you read TGS?

 

 

Yes I have. If it was answered, then it has slipped my mind.

 

 

 

As for the other answers given up there, they all make sense. They definatly cleared it up somewhat for me. I was really wondering if it had been specificaly answered in the books, or if the issue had even been confronted, and maybe I missed it. Is there ever a point where Demandred acknowleges being upset about being tempted and then getting nothing out of it?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Who can know the will of the Great Lord?

 

Have you read TGS?

 

 

Yes I have. If it was answered, then it has slipped my mind.

 

 

 

As for the other answers given up there, they all make sense. They definatly cleared it up somewhat for me. I was really wondering if it had been specificaly answered in the books, or if the issue had even been confronted, and maybe I missed it. Is there ever a point where Demandred acknowleges being upset about being tempted and then getting nothing out of it?

 

As otheres have said, its impossible to know the DO's mind. As to it being confronted, there isnt really an issue I dont think. Every Forsaken has been tempted by the DO with nae'blis status. The DO encourages competition. Demandred's offering wastn really special, as I said, it wasnt a promise or written contract.

 

As for Demandred being annoyed about it. He would be annoyed that he isnt nae'blis, just like all of the others are. But he wouldnt be annoyed because of the tempation. He knew there was no promise involved. The DO tempts everyone. Its just a common thing, nothing really special, only that its the first time we see it onscreen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Who can know the will of the Great Lord?

 

Have you read TGS?

 

 

Yes I have. If it was answered, then it has slipped my mind.

 

 

 

As for the other answers given up there, they all make sense. They definatly cleared it up somewhat for me. I was really wondering if it had been specificaly answered in the books, or if the issue had even been confronted, and maybe I missed it. Is there ever a point where Demandred acknowleges being upset about being tempted and then getting nothing out of it?

 

As otheres have said, its impossible to know the DO's mind. As to it being confronted, there isnt really an issue I dont think. Every Forsaken has been tempted by the DO with nae'blis status. The DO encourages competition. Demandred's offering wastn really special, as I said, it wasnt a promise or written contract.

 

As for Demandred being annoyed about it. He would be annoyed that he isnt nae'blis, just like all of the others are. But he wouldnt be annoyed because of the tempation. He knew there was no promise involved. The DO tempts everyone. Its just a common thing, nothing really special, only that its the first time we see it onscreen.

[OptimusPrime]

Its not impossible to understand the Dark Ones mind at all. Its just impossible to understand it while assuming he thinks like us

 

What Verin said in TGS was a very helpful insight I think. The Dark One promotes selfishness because he finds humanity to be the most predictable when they act selfish. And yet they are expendable because in reality the only one that really matters to him is Ishamael. Same for Semirhage-Shaidar says to her "Wana redeem yourself? Then here, put this on Rand so the only way he can kill you is by using the True Power, which we will allow him to use. To kill you. We'll bring you back, promiiiise." Yeah right.

 

What I think about Demandred is that he is being played by the Dark One more than any of the other Chosen and he just doesnt realize it. I think whoevers body it is that Moridin got, Demandred got hold of it for the Dark One, that being the command he was given at the start of Lord of Chaos. Then at the end, after Ishamael was brought back in that body as Moridin, Demandred visits the Dark One and is all "So can I be Nae'blis now?" and the Dark Ones all "HA HA HA Ishamael is still Nae'blis, thanks to you, you selfish git" and Demandreds all "But why would you do this, have I not done well Great Lord?" and the Dark Ones all "Yeah you did well but you wouldnt have if I had told you the truth, the only way was to offer you more power and make you act all selfish and predictable. Nice one dude, now skee daddle before I have scrambled Demandred for elevenses."

 

He was promised the title of Nae'blis, because there was no way he would have done whatever he did behind the scenes if he knew why. So no Nae'blis, no permission to use balefire, just second place yet again but his own doing this time.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its not impossible to understand the Dark Ones mind at all. Its just impossible to understand it while assuming he thinks like us

 

What Verin said in TGS was a very helpful insight I think. The Dark One promotes selfishness because he finds humanity to be the most predictable when they act selfish. And yet they are expendable because in reality the only one that really matters to him is Ishamael. Same for Semirhage-Shaidar says to her "Wana redeem yourself? Then here, put this on Rand so the only way he can kill you is by using the True Power, which we will allow him to use. To kill you. We'll bring you back, promiiiise." Yeah right.

 

What I think about Demandred is that he is being played by the Dark One more than any of the other Chosen and he just doesnt realize it. I think whoevers body it is that Moridin got, Demandred got hold of it for the Dark One, that being the command he was given at the start of Lord of Chaos. Then at the end, after Ishamael was brought back in that body as Moridin, Demandred visits the Dark One and is all "So can I be Nae'blis now?" and the Dark Ones all "HA HA HA Ishamael is still Nae'blis, thanks to you, you selfish git" and Demandreds all "But why would you do this, have I not done well Great Lord?" and the Dark Ones all "Yeah you did well but you wouldnt have if I had told you the truth, the only way was to offer you more power and make you act all selfish and predictable. Nice one dude, now skee daddle before I have scrambled Demandred for elevenses."

 

He was promised the title of Nae'blis, because there was no way he would have done whatever he did behind the scenes if he knew why. So no Nae'blis, no permission to use balefire, just second place yet again but his own doing this time.

 

Indeed, not sure about the whole "getting Moridin's body" or the DO taking the mickey oout of him at the end of LoC. (I think that was pretty genuine, that Demandred did something great for the DO)

 

However, I agree about Demandred being played. The DO exploits the strenghts and weaknesses of his servants ruthlessly.

 

However, what do you expect Demandred to do? If the DO says do this and I might make you nae'blis. YOu would do it.

 

1. Would any of his people actually say no? I mean, the DO is basically a God. Would you tell God (or whatever supreme deity you believe in) to get lost? And this is the DO, known for his cruelty and unforgiving nature. If you dont obey, your dead. No-one would take that risk.

 

2. Demandred probably knew that the DO wasnt really going to make him nae'blis because of it. But you still try dont you? I mean, what have you got to lose really? He might raise you to nae'blis if you do it. If you dont do it, theres no chance at all, and your most likely dead.

[haloun]

the orders he got are most likely in reference to whatever he has been up to the last 6 books, that no one knows about, and when he states "my rule is secure" that implys he was was successful. now we can surmise that he wouldnt do anything for the naeblis unless directly told by the DO first, so i think it safe to say that he has been acting on what the DO told him since LoC.

[Hunter]

The only one of the people who follow the DO who have a real grasp on the situation is Moridin. The DO knows this. They understand each other pretty well, and so he is the only one the DO really trusts. There really was never any other choice for Nae'blis. He likes to taunt the others with all kinds of things he never really intends on giving. Darkfriends are some of the biggest morons possible. He has no intention of doing anything for any of them in the ong term. He's just using them to get free and end everything.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Good points Barid, but I would probably decide that being second place to Lews Therin or Rand would be better than being second place to Moridin. Seriously. Lews Therin probably wasnt nasty about being first place, he probably felt some sort of pity for Demandred, which at the time would have been annoying, sure. But then when you go somewhere else so you dont have to be second place to one man you hate, and are then put in second place to a different man you also hate but think is a complete LOON to boot, what would you think then? Add to that, that in TGS Demandred claimed Rands head for his own taking, and Moridin had just said HE was gonna do it, and basically said "Ha, yeah right" when Demandred claimed it, wouldnt that sort of make you wonder why you were here?

 

Demandreds reasons for being Chosen are running out, and fast. Hes still in his prime, meaning he would still live longer than most people yet. Rand Cleansed saidin, so the Dark One aint protecting squat. Demandreds main objective is to kill Rand, and he isnt allowed, and the reason he turned in the first place is that Lews Therin was better than him, and he has little reason to believe that of Rand, and he hates being second place to someone he hates and considers inferior, and he is second place to someone he hates and he considers a madman. What exactly is Demandred getting from the Dark One? Absolutely nothing. None of the benefits apply to him, but all the drawbacks do.

 

Yeah he still has to try. What he needs to have been trying behind the scenes is building up his own private mixed gender circle, ready to take down Moridin with Balefire. And then Moridin should tagteam with Shaidar and take them all down, the circle and Demandred both.

[jdbond]

Well Moridin should watch his back. Grandel and Demandred both are waiting their chance.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I think it has to do with their basic natures, and the fact that they are most useful to the Dark One in their given capacity. Demandred is a master general, a leader of armies second only to the Dragon Reborn (which is saying a lot considering what Rand has amassed), Moridin is more suited to the specific position he has been granted, that of Nae'blis and ultimate authority over the Forsaken. He best understands the nature of the Dark One, and we from Verin's exposition know just how self-serving that is, and despite that understanding has completely accepted the fate it means for him. He's fearless, a man who WOULD use balefire and is competent to the role, unlike Rahvin, Sammael or whose failings make them useless without the leash of the Nae'blis.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Good points Barid, but I would probably decide that being second place to Lews Therin or Rand would be better than being second place to Moridin. Seriously. Lews Therin probably wasnt nasty about being first place, he probably felt some sort of pity for Demandred, which at the time would have been annoying, sure. But then when you go somewhere else so you dont have to be second place to one man you hate, and are then put in second place to a different man you also hate but think is a complete LOON to boot, what would you think then? Add to that, that in TGS Demandred claimed Rands head for his own taking, and Moridin had just said HE was gonna do it, and basically said "Ha, yeah right" when Demandred claimed it, wouldnt that sort of make you wonder why you were here?

 

Demandreds reasons for being Chosen are running out, and fast. Hes still in his prime, meaning he would still live longer than most people yet. Rand Cleansed saidin, so the Dark One aint protecting squat. Demandreds main objective is to kill Rand, and he isnt allowed, and the reason he turned in the first place is that Lews Therin was better than him, and he has little reason to believe that of Rand, and he hates being second place to someone he hates and considers inferior, and he is second place to someone he hates and he considers a madman. What exactly is Demandred getting from the Dark One? Absolutely nothing. None of the benefits apply to him, but all the drawbacks do.

 

Yeah he still has to try. What he needs to have been trying behind the scenes is building up his own private mixed gender circle, ready to take down Moridin with Balefire. And then Moridin should tagteam with Shaidar and take them all down, the circle and Demandred both.

 

I agree with you. Thats why i half jokingly put the theory that Demandred will kill Rand and turn back to the Light because he finds out that killing LTT wasnt all that he wanted it to be. He does have the thinnest reason for turning to the DO. IMO, the most likely to turn back to the light out of all of them. It wont happen, btu still.

 

Demandred would definitely hate being second to Moridin. However, I dont think Demandred would strike rashly. He hates LTT more than anything in the entire world, more than Moridin, yet he hasnt lunged at Rand yet. He will be cool and calculating about it and strike when he has the advantage. With Moridin he would be even more careful. the DO has named him nae'blis whether he likes it or not. They both work for hte same guy, he would be a little hesitant to strike the DO's favored man.

 

But yeah, I totally agree with you.

[OptimusPrime]

Good points Barid, but I would probably decide that being second place to Lews Therin or Rand would be better than being second place to Moridin. Seriously. Lews Therin probably wasnt nasty about being first place, he probably felt some sort of pity for Demandred, which at the time would have been annoying, sure. But then when you go somewhere else so you dont have to be second place to one man you hate, and are then put in second place to a different man you also hate but think is a complete LOON to boot, what would you think then? Add to that, that in TGS Demandred claimed Rands head for his own taking, and Moridin had just said HE was gonna do it, and basically said "Ha, yeah right" when Demandred claimed it, wouldnt that sort of make you wonder why you were here?

 

Demandreds reasons for being Chosen are running out, and fast. Hes still in his prime, meaning he would still live longer than most people yet. Rand Cleansed saidin, so the Dark One aint protecting squat. Demandreds main objective is to kill Rand, and he isnt allowed, and the reason he turned in the first place is that Lews Therin was better than him, and he has little reason to believe that of Rand, and he hates being second place to someone he hates and considers inferior, and he is second place to someone he hates and he considers a madman. What exactly is Demandred getting from the Dark One? Absolutely nothing. None of the benefits apply to him, but all the drawbacks do.

 

Yeah he still has to try. What he needs to have been trying behind the scenes is building up his own private mixed gender circle, ready to take down Moridin with Balefire. And then Moridin should tagteam with Shaidar and take them all down, the circle and Demandred both.

 

I agree with you. Thats why i half jokingly put the theory that Demandred will kill Rand and turn back to the Light because he finds out that killing LTT wasnt all that he wanted it to be. He does have the thinnest reason for turning to the DO. IMO, the most likely to turn back to the light out of all of them. It wont happen, btu still.

 

Demandred would definitely hate being second to Moridin. However, I dont think Demandred would strike rashly. He hates LTT more than anything in the entire world, more than Moridin, yet he hasnt lunged at Rand yet. He will be cool and calculating about it and strike when he has the advantage. With Moridin he would be even more careful. the DO has named him nae'blis whether he likes it or not. They both work for hte same guy, he would be a little hesitant to strike the DO's favored man.

 

But yeah, I totally agree with you.

 

How good would it be if Demandreds rant in TGS was a ploy to keep Moridin off his scent, that he was closer in his plan to kill Moridin that his plan to kill Rand... but Moridin still kicked his ass

[Mighty Chin]

I would hazard a guess that every forsaken that was summoned recieved the same talk from the DO.

[Sid]

Graendal also recalls from her trip to the bore that the DO 'had practically assured her the position of Nae'blis.' but then when Sammael made the same claim she couldn't dismiss it. I suppose it was easier for all of them to believe since Ishamael was dead and Moridin hadn't resurfaced yet, and the DO took advantage of their ambition even more than usual. Even now every PoV of a Forsaken seems to have 'Moridin was Nae'blis.... FOR NOW...' (dun dun dunnnn)

 

As for what Demandred accomplished during LoC.... perhaps we'll learn more after ToM comes out. All we have is speculation now. I guessed that the whole kidnapping and subsequent rescue by Taim was a ploy to make Rand take his first steps toward his eventual turning to Cuendillar, which is probably just what the DO wants. ('one with the land' and so forth)

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, I think that the DO was just fucking with Demandred and pretty much made the same offer to all of them. Ishamael's his boy and always has been because he's the only one of them who knows what the DO's actual goal is and is working towards that. All the rest of them think there's some kind of immortality ahead for them and not oblivion. Like Verin said, he values selfishness so that he can dangle these carrots infront of them and know how they'll react to them so they'll do what he wants them to do and not wander off on their own so much.

[mikedh]

SPOILER ALERT FOR ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ AS FAR AS THE LORD OF CHAOS.

!

!

!

 

 

In the prologue to (I believe it was) LOC, the DO speaks to Demandred, asks him if he would be nae'blis, and asks him if he would wield balefire. Then, Demandred sort of vanishes from the book for a while. Moridin appears, Moridin is nae'blis, and Moridin wields balefire, which crosses with Rand's when destroying Sammael.

 

Has this been explained? Why was this position offered to Demandred but then given to Moridin, who is supposedly the resurrected Ishamael, without any explaination as to why?

 

Or was their an explaination that I just missed?

 

I think you are getting a bit mixed up.

 

the Balefire and nae'bis are two separate things.

 

Even the Forsaken are terrified of using Balefire. So the DO was saying "would you do it even though your scared of it" It is not a privelage.

 

The DO wasnt exactly offering. He didnt write down a legal contract saying you will be nae'blis. It was just him saying "would you be nae'blis?" I can make it happen.

 

Other than that, the DO can do whatever he wants really. He could promise everything (which he does) and give nothing (which he will). So there kinda doesnt have to be an explaination, he can chose whoever he wants to be nae'blis.

 

Hopefully that clears things up a bit for you.

I think what he's saying is that the DO is saying, "if you cross balefire streams with Rand I'll make you the Nae'blis." I never really thought deeply on WHY Moridin was even using balefire, or WHY he was using it on Sammael. Maybe the DO knew something about crossing balefire streams (bodyswap? two becoming one? Rand's new sickness?) and he knew that it would be bad for Rand.

 

Maybe that wasn't what the OP was getting at but that's where my mind led me.

[GYLD]

I don't recall Moridin attacking Sammael with balefire. Rand and Moridin both instinctively struck out at Mashadar with Balefire and I don't think even the Dark One could anticipate that.