Avi's Gateway

[A2597]

OK, so Avi made a gateway to seanchan, then forgot how.

 

Later, when she is taught how to channel, she complains about how hard it is to do it. (well, as much as any Aiel complains...;) )

 

This got me thinking, when Moghedien was talking to Egwene about traveling:

 

Now. I have considered traveling from one place to another by boring a hole, so to speak, from here to there. A hole through the Pattern, so there’s no distance between one end and the other. How well will that work?”

 

“Not at all, for you or any woman,” Moghedien said, breathless and quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. “That is how men Travel.” The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. “If you try, you will be sucked into . . . I don’t know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don’t think you would live very long. I know you would never come back.”

 

She doesn't think it would work, but what if that is exactly what Avi did? She's always been a little more direct then the other channelers in the book, and boring a hole sounds like something she would do without thinking while trying to escape.

 

Thoughts?

[Sharaman]

Avi made a standard saidar gateway with slightly different weaves, or different order of weaves, from the method Egwene used. Avi has "second weave" problems - when a channeler learns two very similar methods of doing the same thing, the second method is difficult to learn or master.

If Avi had found a radically different method, she would not have had a problem learning Egwene's method.

I'm sure somebody can supply the quotes.

One reference I can recall is Romanda thinking that Nynaeve's healing methods were different enough not to cause second-weave problems to AS healers who already knew the normal AS method.

[didymos]

Thoughts?

 

Yeah: Moghedien tells Egwene that's how men Travel, and it doesn't work for women. And she doesn't think it won't work: she knows it won't work. Her only uncertainty is in regards to precisely what horrible thing would happen to any woman who tried. Which makes sense: it's not like any woman who made the attempt would survive and be able to file a report about the ordeal. We also know she's not lying because Egwene got that description from Rand, who's a man (that and the very idea of trying it that way instantly scares the hell out of Mogs, which is sensed through the a'dam. Hard to fake, that). Aviendha, on the other hand, is not a man. Therefore, that's not how she Traveled. She simply used a different but very similar weave, which made it hard for her do it the way Egwene did. We know that's true because RJ put in a bunch of exposition about the phenomenon and how it worked in APoD and even did so from Aviendha's POV.

[jdbond]

I always thought there was only one Saidar or Saidin based weave for Traveling. If there are more than one, how exactly do they differ? All Ash'man (including Taim) learned from Rand and all Aesi Sedai from Egwene. So who uses other kind of weave(s) for Traveling?

[A2597]

Thoughts?

 

Yeah: Moghedien tells Egwene that's how men Travel, and it doesn't work for women. And she doesn't think it won't work: she knows it won't work. Her only uncertainty is in regards to precisely what horrible thing would happen to any woman who tried. Which makes sense: it's not like any woman who made the attempt would survive and be able to file a report about the ordeal. We also know she's not lying because Egwene got that description from Rand, who's a man (that and the very idea of trying it that way instantly scares the hell out of Mogs, which is sensed through the a'dam. Hard to fake, that). Aviendha, on the other hand, is not a man. Therefore, that's not how she Traveled. She simply used a different but very similar weave, which made it hard for her do it the way Egwene did. We know that's true because RJ put in a bunch of exposition about the phenomenon and how it worked in APoD and even did so from Aviendha's POV.

 

We all know that the forsaken are fallible though, they do not know everything, and as Aes Sedi have proven time and time again, just because you "believe" something to be true, doesn't make it so. A different weave for gateways seem almost as improbable as her boring through space ala the male way of channeling. But that begs the question, what DID she do? and I don't think it's as simple as a different order of weaves. That would be too minor of a thing to bring it up numerous times in later books, there's something more to this IMHO.

[didymos]

I always thought there was only one Saidar or Saidin based weave for Traveling. If there are more than one, how exactly do they differ? All Ash'man (including Taim) learned from Rand and all Aesi Sedai from Egwene. So who uses other(s) kind of weave for Traveling?

 

There's really no way to answer that question. Weaves are never described in enough detail to know what they "really" look like, and we haven't been given a whole lot in the way of the theory governing the OP to understand what they're "really" manipulating when they do this stuff. Multiple ways of doing some things are just a fact because the books say so. Sometimes, these differences are large. Sometimes, they're not. If it's the latter, then channelers have trouble learning more than one. Why? Again, nobody can say much (beyond noting some similarity to the concept of a block), but that's what happens because the books say it's what happens. As far as who uses them? Aviendha, apparently. At least the one time, anyway. Who else? Who knows? The books don't go into it, so we again have no way to answer the question.

 

Just in general, though, if you think about it, they're has to be some variation because otherwise the gateways would have no way to "know" where they're supposed to connect to. So, we're not talking about people making the exact same Traveling weave in the sense of it having some rigidly defined geometry or whatever. It's probably more a matter of the procedure being different. E.g., stuff like doing certain steps in different orders, or maybe using different "sub-weaves" which end up giving the required result (think programming languages: you could use recursion, or a while loop, or a for loop, or even a bunch of nasty looking, goto-ridden spaghetti code to implement some calculation, but when they're done, they all return the same answer).

[Mik]

OK, so Avi made a gateway to seanchan, then forgot how.

 

Later, when she is taught how to channel, she complains about how hard it is to do it. (well, as much as any Aiel complains...;) )

 

This got me thinking, when Moghedien was talking to Egwene about traveling:

 

Now. I have considered traveling from one place to another by boring a hole, so to speak, from here to there. A hole through the Pattern, so there’s no distance between one end and the other. How well will that work?”

 

“Not at all, for you or any woman,” Moghedien said, breathless and quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. “That is how men Travel.” The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. “If you try, you will be sucked into . . . I don’t know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don’t think you would live very long. I know you would never come back.”

 

She doesn't think it would work, but what if that is exactly what Avi did? She's always been a little more direct then the other channelers in the book, and boring a hole sounds like something she would do without thinking while trying to escape.

 

Thoughts?

I think it's plausible. I don't think there's a way to prove it, but I like the thought.

 

People who posted earlier about how Moghedien should know and about second-weave problems might want to re-read Moridin's 2nd PoV where he watches Aviendha unravel a Gateway. Not only was it deemed impossible by Moridin and everyone in the AoL. Coincidently, it's also something Aviendha does specifically to a Gateway. This is why I think your idea is at the very least plausible. So we've learned by that one PoV (Chapter 2 in TPoD, I think it was) that AoL channelers didn't know all there was to know (bonding, unraveling a gateway, etc), and that Aviendha has a channeling skill with Gateways that seems to come natural to her.

 

I think it might have a role to play with how the Bore (in essence a male/female -bored by a female so to speak- Gateway from Creation to Nothingness) will be unraveled. Aviendha's knowlegde about her own Gateway (in Far Snow) and het ability to pick a Gateway apart might be vital to 'clear the rubble'...?

[didymos]

We all know that the forsaken are fallible though, they do not know everything, and as Aes Sedi have proven time and time again, just because you "believe" something to be true, doesn't make it so. A different weave for gateways seem almost as improbable as her boring through space ala the male way of channeling. But that begs the question, what DID she do? and I don't think it's as simple as a different order of weaves. That would be too minor of a thing to bring it up numerous times in later books, there's something more to this IMHO.

 

Yeah, of course: it's possible. And? All the evidence we have says that's not what's going on. Aviendha didn't use the male method of Traveling because that kills women. Until there's some actual evidence that says otherwise, that's the explanation. It doesn't matter if it might be wrong. What matters is if we have any compelling reason to think it is wrong, and simply being mentioned is not a compelling reason. Also, here's another problem: while it may seem improbable to you that slightly different gate weaves exist, it doesn't seem at all improbable to me. I mean, improbable based on what exactly? We have nowhere near enough information about channeling to determine probabilities for much of anything except for stuff we've already seen people do, in which case the probability is '1'.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think people are looking too much into it.

 

She unconciously made her Gateway while she was under great duress.

 

(Also, when does it say that the weave was different at all? From my recollection, she cant remember it at all. (Sorry, havent read the books for a while))

 

Because of how she opened her first gateway, she develops a mental block that makes it difficult to open a gateway.

[Thanatos]

Ok, so this brings up another question....

 

How did Aviendha make a gateway to Seanchan anyway? Don't you have to know the place you travel to and from very well. How would Avi know Seanchan well enough to travel there? Is it some connection from a past life, or did she figure out a way to beat that travelling hindrance, ala Rand and his travel short distances.

[A2597]

you have to know the place you are traveling from, not to. Skimming requires you to know where you are traveling to.

 

As for Avi complaining, can't list specifics, but she complained about it several times in her head, and more than once to Elayne. She was certain she didn't make it the same way, but can't remember what she DID do.

[didymos]

I think people are looking too much into it.

 

She unconciously made her Gateway while she was under great duress.

 

(Also, when does it say that the weave was different at all? From my recollection, she cant remember it at all. (Sorry, havent read the books for a while))

 

Because of how she opened her first gateway, she develops a mental block that makes it difficult to open a gateway.

 

We know because the text says her weave was different. Her POV in APoD is clear that what she remembers of it is not quite the same as the one Elayne taught her. The books are also explicit about the fact that learning a second weave for something when that weave is only somewhat different is hard and results in problems just like those Aviendha was having with her gateway: it takes more effort and power than it should and often isn't as effective.

[jdbond]

Could the difference between her's and Elayne's originates from the fact that in traditional Traveling you need to learn the place you are Traveling from while in case of Aviendha's she didn't get the chance to do that?

[Agitel]

Why do people make it sound so odd that there are different weaves. It's mentioned that the Wise Ones have different weaves than the Aes Sedai in some cases when it comes to doing the same thing, some are more efficient, some are less. The goal using saidar is to make the two places in the Pattern the same, there's not just one way it HAS to be done. Moiraine comments on their being different weaves for the same 'spells' and the difficulty of learning second weaves in pretty much the first book.

[Magnetic Zero]

Could the difference between her's and Elayne's originates from the fact that in traditional Traveling you need to learn the place you are Traveling from while in case of Aviendha's she didn't get the chance to do that?

 

I'm pretty sure Aviendha had plenty of time to learn the palace she was in and the room she was taking a bath in.

[Sid]

Nyneave thinks the weaves for the test for the shawl are silly and needlessly complex to do simple things. Obviously extremely different weaves exist to accomplish the same ends.

 

Actually, it could be that since she was never a Novice and instructed to learn simple useless weaves in the simple way that she has absolutely no problem weaving them (aside from the fact that she picks things up remarkably quickly). She doesn't have to worry about the second weave limitations and the extra difficulties related to them.

[didymos]

Could the difference between her's and Elayne's originates from the fact that in traditional Traveling you need to learn the place you are Traveling from while in case of Aviendha's she didn't get the chance to do that?

 

No, because Aviendha did know the place: it was Rand's room in Eianrod, and she'd been in there for a while already when Rand walked in on her.

 

In any case, I have to say that I seriously do not get what the issue is. There's no mystery that needs solving here. It's just "second-learned weave" syndrome:

 

The first way you learned the weave for a particular thing imprinted itself on you; learning a second was all but impossible, and even when you could learn, the second-learned weave almost never worked as well. (APoD pg 277, US Hardback)

 

That's exactly what Aviendha experienced earlier in the book: she used a second-learned gateway weave that Elayne had taught her. It was hard to pull off, took her full strength instead of a fraction, and she was positive that she could have made it larger if she'd been able to remember and use the version of it from TFoH. Besides which: I hardly think it's coincidence that in the same book we first get to see Avi all dissatisfied with her lame gateway and then later on we are helpfully informed that second-learned weaves generally suck.

[didymos]

Why do people make it sound so odd that there are different weaves.

 

That's what I've been trying to figure out.

 

Moiraine comments on their being different weaves for the same 'spells' and the difficulty of learning second weaves in pretty much the first book.

 

Really? I never noticed that (or I've forgotten I noticed it). Where does it come up exactly?