Sorilea is a Darkfriend(or worse)

[Durfee]

 

Or SH shielding Aran'gar or Messana..or was it Moghi;)

 

 

Not related to this quote, but others of yours; I don't see why you insist on discounting a direct quote from BS himself. According to you he lied about his own/RJ's work.

 

But that's not really why I'm chiming in on this thread, I just don't appreciate the sarcasm with which you have been typing when it was really uncalled for and served only to discredit your opinion.

 

What I really would like to point out is that the Forsaken are tied to the Dark One through the One Power, IIRC (I could be misremembering). Therefore, Shaidar Haran's ability to cut them off from the source and dissipate their weaves is consistent with his status as the Dark One's Hand. This could be central anyone's arguments on the subject, one way or the other. It is also something that I recall you questioning on the first page of the thread.

[didymos]

What I really would like to point out is that the Forsaken are tied to the Dark One through the One Power, IIRC (I could be misremembering). Therefore, Shaidar Haran's ability to cut them off from the source and dissipate their weaves is consistent with his status as the Dark One's Hand. This could be central anyone's arguments on the subject, one way or the other. It is also something that I recall you questioning on the first page of the thread.

 

I'm pretty sure that it's simply that a channeler has certain vulnerabilities that non-channelers don't, thus the 13x13 trick and ter'angreal like binders. I don't even really see how the OP itself could even be remotely related to binding a person to the Shadow. All we really know is that male Forsaken have those black "wires" that siphon off the Taint. Beyond that, it apparently just requires that one swear oaths to the DO in order for him to get a hold on you (as demonstrated by Fain being able to see those weird sooty marks on a Darkfriend's forehead). Only Black Ajah actually use the OP when swearing new Oaths, and that's done mostly for very practical reasons and obviously, you're already got to be sworn to the Shadow before becoming Black Ajah.

 

In any case, whatever SH is doing to block channeling is certainly not OP related at all. I mean he is the DO himself in a way, so you know...that kinda makes no sense. And it's not clear as to whether or not that trick only works on Shadowsworn channelers. It may very well work on any channeler (I actually tend to doubt that's the case, but we have no way to prove that currently).

[Demiandre]

And Mesaana's disguise disappeared when SH entered the room to punish her. SH seems to have the same function as a stedding, or the Far Madding ward. When Aginor and Balthamel were transmigrated, Balthamal tried to attack SH. None of both could use the OP.

[jdbond]

 

Or SH shielding Aran'gar or Messana..or was it Moghi;)

 

 

Not related to this quote, but others of yours; I don't see why you insist on discounting a direct quote from BS himself. According to you he lied about his own/RJ's work.

 

But that's not really why I'm chiming in on this thread, I just don't appreciate the sarcasm with which you have been typing when it was really uncalled for and served only to discredit your opinion.

 

What I really would like to point out is that the Forsaken are tied to the Dark One through the One Power, IIRC (I could be misremembering). Therefore, Shaidar Haran's ability to cut them off from the source and dissipate their weaves is consistent with his status as the Dark One's Hand. This could be central anyone's arguments on the subject, one way or the other. It is also something that I recall you questioning on the first page of the thread.

 

 

Direct Quote that says that SH cannot channel?

 

Forsaken are not "tied" to DO. While men did get special protection from DO due to taint, women didn't even have that. So SH cannot just shut them of.

[jdbond]

What I really would like to point out is that the Forsaken are tied to the Dark One through the One Power, IIRC (I could be misremembering). Therefore, Shaidar Haran's ability to cut them off from the source and dissipate their weaves is consistent with his status as the Dark One's Hand. This could be central anyone's arguments on the subject, one way or the other. It is also something that I recall you questioning on the first page of the thread.

 

I'm pretty sure that it's simply that a channeler has certain vulnerabilities that non-channelers don't, thus the 13x13 trick and ter'angreal like binders. I don't even really see how the OP itself could even be remotely related to binding a person to the Shadow. All we really know is that male Forsaken have those black "wires" that siphon off the Taint. Beyond that, it apparently just requires that one swear oaths to the DO in order for him to get a hold on you (as demonstrated by Fain being able to see those weird sooty marks on a Darkfriend's forehead). Only Black Ajah actually use the OP when swearing new Oaths, and that's done mostly for very practical reasons and obviously, you're already got to be sworn to the Shadow before becoming Black Ajah.

 

In any case, whatever SH is doing to block channeling is certainly not OP related at all. I mean he is the DO himself in a way, so you know...that kinda makes no sense. And it's not clear as to whether or not that trick only works on Shadowsworn channelers. It may very well work on any channeler (I actually tend to doubt that's the case, but we have no way to prove that currently).

 

 

I really like you, man! Atleast we are reading the same book;)

 

So there is this distinct possibility that SH goes beyond channeling and knows a way to simply shut down TP/OP and even various wards based on OP/TP. Afterall I doubt that Creator or DO channel.

[MatsLuck]

I think some people want Sorilea to be dark, because we all know this magnificent series is coming to a close, and we want some good surprises at the end. That's fine, but I doubt it in this case. I believe we have one and only one pov from Sorilea, and it is very brief. However, she seems genuinely concerned about Rand at this point. While we know the shadow may have conflicting orders at times, and certainly not all darkfriends know each other, it still seems odd that she would worry about where he (and Min) was, when we know he was in the custody of black sisters.

 

Also her "Aiel heart" speech to Egwene seems genuine. True the best darkfriends hide in plain sight, and sometimes they do things that seem to help the Light...but an encouragement speech? Just seems un-darkfriend like to me. Put her (Egwene) in a position of power so she can be used (ala Sheriam) I can see that...bolstering her spirits though...not so much.

 

As far as Elza and all that...I see no reason why she couldn't take down the three sisters by herself. They were concentrating on shielding Semi, and had no reason to suspect her. Why all the talk of nasty weaves and trying to shield someone who is channeling? What's wrong with poison or an unexpected fist of air to knock them unconscious? And SH can't get through a ward from Cadsuane?? They should send her to fight the DO at TG I guess. If SH can shut people off from the source, not shield them, but make it so they can't even sense it...why try to say what he can or can't do? He may not channel but he can obviously interact with the TS, and smell it.

 

Lastly for any of Elza's actions post TP Rand (i.e. running) from the text she was obviously messed up from her compulsion being removed so there's no predicting her actions after that.

[LazyMonk]

What reason does DF_Sorilea has to teach traveling to Cadsuane??

[didymos]

So there is this distinct possibility that SH goes beyond channeling and knows a way to simply shut down TP/OP and even various wards based on OP/TP. Afterall I doubt that Creator or DO channel.

 

Yeah, I don't see why not. The Dark One is a reality warper, capable of something as big as locking the world into a perpetual, baking summer, or altering the height of a cavern just to make a point, so I don't see why his avatar, who we've seen do all sorts of other interesting stuff like torching spears with black fire, creating dead black globes of "light", appearing to grow to huge proportions, etc., can't just decide "No, I don't think I want you channeling right now" and have that happen simply because that's what he wants to happen.

 

Of course, it's entirely possible SH is just doing that and the other stuff by way of True Power channeling. It could just be a weird form of shielding, like a temporary, very localized version of Far Madding's Guardian ter'angreal. I mean, ter'angreal use the OP to do what they do, so it's apparently possible to use the OP to block someone from even sensing the True Source, which is the big thing people always notice and freak out about when SH blocks them. And since the TP can pretty much do whatever the OP can, it stands to reason one could replicate that effect using the TP, especially if one happens to be the avatar of the Dark One, the very Source of the True Power itself.

 

All speculation, of course.

[didymos]

Oh, yeah small Shaidar Haran tidbit that people often forget (not surprising, since it's mentioned in passing): he's the only myrddraal who can "smell" the difference between saidin and saidar residues, so one has to wonder what else he's capable of perceiving as far as actual, active weaves go. Also, we've been told numerous times that certain types of wards are "beacons" to a myrddraal, and that no one, not even Aginor, really understands everything they can do or even how their known abilities work. Even myrddraal themselves don't really know. And Shaidar Haran is no ordinary myrddraal, and almost literally an appendage the DO, what with being an actual vessel he inhabits, so it's not really safe to make assumptions about what he does and does not have knowledge of, much less what he can or cannot do.

[Sharaman]

Oh, yeah small Shaidar Haran tidbit that people often forget (not surprising, since it's mentioned in passing): he's the only myrddraal who can "smell" the difference between saidin and saidar residues, so one has to wonder what else he's capable of perceiving as far as actual, active weaves go. Also, we've been told numerous times that certain types of wards are "beacons" to a myrddraal, and that no one, not even Aginor, really understands everything they can do or even how their known abilities work. Even myrddraal themselves don't really know. And Shaidar Haran is no ordinary myrddraal, and almost literally an appendage the DO, what with being an actual vessel he inhabits, so it's not really safe to make assumptions about what he does and does not have knowledge of, much less what he can or cannot do.

SH can certainly channel in some fashion - ACoS - when he burns the spear after watching Sammael-Graen do their Shaido scam.

He is also apparently limited in certain ways - according to Brandon, he had to work through Elza for the ward removal and he couldn't remove Verin's compulsion on Elza himself (this could just be because he can't handle saidar).

There's lot of evidence (and negative evidence) that a high-ranking Aiel, probably a WO is a DF.

[didymos]

Oh, yeah small Shaidar Haran tidbit that people often forget (not surprising, since it's mentioned in passing): he's the only myrddraal who can "smell" the difference between saidin and saidar residues, so one has to wonder what else he's capable of perceiving as far as actual, active weaves go. Also, we've been told numerous times that certain types of wards are "beacons" to a myrddraal, and that no one, not even Aginor, really understands everything they can do or even how their known abilities work. Even myrddraal themselves don't really know. And Shaidar Haran is no ordinary myrddraal, and almost literally an appendage the DO, what with being an actual vessel he inhabits, so it's not really safe to make assumptions about what he does and does not have knowledge of, much less what he can or cannot do.

SH can certainly channel in some fashion - ACoS - when he burns the spear after watching Sammael-Graen do their Shaido scam.

He is also apparently limited in certain ways - according to Brandon, he had to work through Elza for the ward removal and he couldn't remove Verin's compulsion on Elza himself (this could just be because he can't handle saidar).

 

See my post prior to the one your replying to, where I mention the spear and other things. While I personally think it's likely SH is channeling, it's entirely possible that he just simply wills stuff to happen, and it happens because, well, he's basically the DO (if very attenuated) and the DO can warp reality (as seen in the environs of Shayol Ghul). As far as limits go, yeah, obviously: what with being imprisoned and all, the full-on DO is currently quite limited (compared to what he'd be capable of if freed), so a flesh-and-blood myrddraal avatar will necessarily be even more limited than that. Still, by virtue of being the DO's avatar, it's not unreasonable to think that he doesn't actually have to channel in the sense of consciously manipulating weaves and whatnot. I mean the DO is the True Power, so it's a little strange to think of him weaving himself, rather than just directly exerting his influence through his mobile "conduit". But it's also quite reasonable to think that actually having to construct TP weaves like any other channeler is one of SH's limitations, since he ultimately is a flesh-and-blood creature and the DO may have to work within the boundaries of what's possible for flesh-and-blood creatures, even if they are slighty out-of-phase or whatever (which would mean SH has a "maximum capacity" for the TP as well, much like OP channelers).

 

There's lot of evidence (and negative evidence) that a high-ranking Aiel, probably a WO is a DF.

 

Like, um, the topic of this thread you mean? Can't agree if it's Sorilea you're thinking of. Very likely won't agree on any other high-ranking Aiel either, unless you can provide some specific (and not hopelessly equivocal) examples of this evidence. I honestly don't see where someone would get that idea from, based on what we've seen of the Aiel "brass". It's certainly possible, but nowhere near probable, as I see it. Even the Shaido WOs, who are the obvious candidates for Aiel DFs, could just be really terrible people (cf. Mordeth). Yeah, I know: someone got RAFOed on this very question at a signing, but that only means that BS didn't want to answer the question one way or the other for reasons known only to BS (and presumably the rest of Team Jordan).

 

BTW, addressed to no one in particular, and wildly off-topic, I know RJ didn't like the term 'avatar' when it came to SH, but, well, I disagree with him there. 'Avatar' is perfectly applicable to the state of being a "shadowy form" projected by a vastly greater being. There's nothing that says an avatar must have exactly the same powers as the being which has taken that form. In fact, they generally don't have all the same abilities (or at least, they don't use them) and they're basically never as powerful as their "true self". They can in fact be, and in Hinduism often are, rather different from that "true self", as well as quite limited. Of course, those limitations are basically self-imposed in Hindu mythology, whereas for SH they're not, but in many (if not most) respects they're quite similar. Interestingly, the Heroes of the Horn (especially the Dragon) are rather like Vishnu's avatars in terms of their purpose (as opposed to their nature) in the world of TWOT:

Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth.

For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil,

and for the establishment of righteousness,

I come into being age after age.

[Gor]

Like, um, the topic of this thread you mean? Can't agree if it's Sorilea you're thinking of. Very likely won't agree on any other high-ranking Aiel either, unless you can provide some specific (and not hopelessly equivocal) examples of this evidence. I honestly don't see where someone would get that idea from, based on what we've seen of the Aiel "brass". It's certainly possible, but nowhere near probable, as I see it. Even the Shaido WOs, who are the obvious candidates for Aiel DFs, could just be really terrible people (cf. Mordeth). Yeah, I know: someone got RAFOed on this very question at a signing, but that only means that BS didn't want to answer the question one way or the other for reasons known only to BS (and presumably the rest of Team Jordan).

This is a very naive argument. You are essentially saying that Wise Ones aren't darkfriends. Are Wise Ones completely unique to this whole series then? Every single other people, organization, whatever has had a DF at or very near the top. I can unequivocally guarantee you that a WO somewhere is a DF, assuming that none are is just naive. Given that, the *only* WO that has shown us a shred of evidence to being a DF is Sorilea. I seriously doubt another WO is going to step forward in the next 2 books and play a major enough role to be a DF. That is why my bet is on it being Sorilea. But yeah, maybe you are right and WOs are just completely immune to the Shadow.

[moroten]

 

And the given paragraph is too obvious to be considered just dropping hints. If SH has no abilities, how exactly did he shield Messana? I also would like to venture that it was he who took down all three Aes Sedai. Not sure how but there cannot be anyone else.

 

 

He didnt. Channelers cant channel around him just like they cant when they venture to the DO they loose the ability to grasp the source. I remember reading that the DO had transfered that particular talent to SH.

[Gor]

Traveling is not a complicated weave at all! I am sure you found the line in book but I didn't. It was just a lost art and requires certain amount of strength in one Power. What Nynaneve does is complicated. What Grandel does is complicated. Keeping someone else's gateway open is complicated. Traveling isn't.

TGS, ch. 40, pg 632: "Excellent," Egwene said, absently weaving as complex a weave as Adelorna had ever seen. A line of light broke the air, then rotated around itself, creating a hole into blackness.

[didymos]

This is a very naive argument. You are essentially saying that Wise Ones aren't darkfriends.

 

That's not even remotely close to what I said. I said I see no reason to believe any of them currently are unless we have some hard evidence to that effect. As I also actually said, even a really evil, horrible Aiel could just be a giant jerk, Wise One or not and no Shadow required. As far as I'm concerned, we simply don't have that hard evidence. There's, at best, some highly equivocal and very circumstantial evidence. Unless, you know, someone can provide something concrete, which I explicitly requested in my post, I'm not gonna sign on to the whole "A Wise One is definitely a DF" thing. What's wrong with that? I like having actual, solid evidence. Until then, the default assumption is that they're not, because that's the actual default within Randland itself. People have to choose the Shadow (or, yes, be forced to it after much intensive psychological and physical torture or an often logistically impractical deployment of a 13x13 squad).

 

Also, just to clarify, I'm only talking about the known upper ranks of the Aiel that we see a decent amount of in the novels (and not just WO's, but also the clan chiefs). If you wanna extend this to all Aiel leaders, period, then yes: odds are pretty good at least a few WOs and sept chiefs (and roofmistresses) are Shadowrunners. However, just to be Shai'tan's advocate for a moment., unlikely as it may be, it is actually possible that none of them are. Improbable, but very definitely possible.

[Sharaman]

See my post prior to the one your replying to, where I mention the spear and other things. While I personally think it's likely SH is channeling, it's entirely possible that he just simply wills stuff to happen, and it happens because, well, he's basically the DO (if very attenuated) and the DO can warp reality (as seen in the environs of Shayol Ghul). As far as limits go, yeah, obviously: what with being imprisoned and all, the full-on DO is currently quite limited (compared to what he'd be capable of if freed), so a flesh-and-blood myrddraal avatar will necessarily be even more limited than that. Still, by virtue of being the DO's avatar, it's not unreasonable to think that he doesn't actually have to channel in the sense of consciously manipulating weaves and whatnot. I mean the DO is the True Power, so it's a little strange to think of him weaving himself, rather than just directly exerting his influence through his mobile "conduit". But it's also quite reasonable to think that actually having to construct TP weaves like any other channeler is one of SH's limitations, since he ultimately is a flesh-and-blood creature and the DO may have to work within the boundaries of what's possible for flesh-and-blood creatures, even if they are slighty out-of-phase or whatever (which would mean SH has a "maximum capacity" for the TP as well, much like OP channelers).

 

You are postulating mysterious powers, which the GloD may or may not have.

Is it not more reasonable to accept that SH can channel TP?.We know TP cannot be detected except by another TP-user and we know that everybody except Moridin is cut off. SH's actions – burning spear, shields on channelers blocking the source can be explained easily if he is a TP channeler.

 

 

 

 

There's lot of evidence (and negative evidence) that a high-ranking Aiel, probably a WO is a DF.

 

Like, um, the topic of this thread you mean? Can't agree if it's Sorilea you're thinking of. Very likely won't agree on any other high-ranking Aiel either, unless you can provide some specific (and not hopelessly equivocal) examples of this evidence. I honestly don't see where someone would get that idea from, based on what we've seen of the Aiel "brass". It's certainly possible, but nowhere near probable, as I see it. Even the Shaido WOs, who are the obvious candidates for Aiel DFs, could just be really terrible people (cf. Mordeth). Yeah, I know: someone got RAFOed on this very question at a signing, but that only means that BS didn't want to answer the question one way or the other for reasons known only to BS (and presumably the rest of Team Jordan).

 

I've posted before I happen to think Aiel DFs are the BUT.

The incidents I'd cite.

Nobody from Ishamael down knows who blew the Horn of Valere. Then Moiraine reveals this in Rhuarc's presence at the end of TDR. When the trollocs and fades Sammael send attack the Stone, one fade addressed Mat as “Hornsounder”. Possible source- Rhuarc or his wife if he shared it with her in a dream.

A series of mysterious Shadowspawn attacks deep in the Waste. Those creatures can't Travel. It's difficult to imagine that they'd have got past Aiel scouts and guards and survived the waterless trek without Aiel help. Even if Lanfear and Asmo call them in, neither Lanfear/ Asmo have the skills to bypass Aiel sentries.

Aiel Travel to try and kill Mat – They must be Dffs shifted in by the Forsaken – the Aiel know who Mat is. A deliberate assassination attempt would have to be made by Dfs.

Katerine escapes from the Aiel WO's camp. Again, impossible to do without Aiel DF collusion.

Sorilea sees the wards. SH teaches Elza how to bypass them Does Sorilea demonstrate the wards? Also the attack is timed for a period when Cadsuane is not around because she's with the Aiel..

 

The above is positive evidence.

The negative evidence is simple. No PoVs from Rhuarc, Amys, Melaine, Bael, Bair and one short, nearly irrelevant PoV from Sorilea.

 

 

BTW, addressed to no one in particular, and wildly off-topic, I know RJ didn't like the term 'avatar' when it came to SH, but, well, I disagree with him there. 'Avatar' is perfectly applicable to the state of being a "shadowy form" projected by a vastly greater being. There's nothing that says an avatar must have exactly the same powers as the being which has taken that form. In fact, they generally don't have all the same abilities (or at least, they don't use them) and they're basically never as powerful as their "true self". They can in fact be, and in Hinduism often are, rather different from that "true self", as well as quite limited. Of course, those limitations are basically self-imposed in Hindu mythology, whereas for SH they're not, but in many (if not most) respects they're quite similar. Interestingly, the Heroes of the Horn (especially the Dragon) are rather like Vishnu's avatars in terms of their purpose (as opposed to their nature) in the world of TWOT:

Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth.

For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil,

and for the establishment of righteousness,

I come into being age after age.

 

Yada Yada hi adharmasya glanirbhavata bharata, abhyuthanyam -----probably the most oft-quoted/ misquoted bit of the Gita.

 

Agreed – in the case of Vishnu's ten avatars, a qualifier for being an avatar is that they don't have the full powers of Vishnu the preserver and don't know that they are avatars. Krishna (the speaker in the above) is self-aware and has the full powers of the Preserver (save for being mortal) and hence, doesn't count as an avatar.

But it really doesn't matter in this context since RJ defined exactly what he meant even if his interpretation was off base in terms of Vaishnav doctrine.

 

Edit: Cleaned up the typos somewhat. Have run earlier posts together.

[jdbond]

 

And the given paragraph is too obvious to be considered just dropping hints. If SH has no abilities, how exactly did he shield Messana? I also would like to venture that it was he who took down all three Aes Sedai. Not sure how but there cannot be anyone else.

 

 

He didnt. Channelers cant channel around him just like they cant when they venture to the DO they loose the ability to grasp the source. I remember reading that the DO had transfered that particular talent to SH.

 

 

Channeling in SG is forbidden. Where does it say that you cannot actually channel in SG? You do realize that LTT channeled in SG when he sealed the bore? Or Aran'gar tried to?

[jdbond]

This is a very naive argument. You are essentially saying that Wise Ones aren't darkfriends.

 

That's not even remotely close to what I said. I said I see no reason to believe any of them currently are unless we have some hard evidence to that effect. As I also actually said, even a really evil, horrible Aiel could just be a giant jerk, Wise One or not and no Shadow required. As far as I'm concerned, we simply don't have that hard evidence. There's, at best, some highly equivocal and very circumstantial evidence. Unless, you know, someone can provide something concrete, which I explicitly requested in my post, I'm not gonna sign on to the whole "A Wise One is definitely a DF" thing. What's wrong with that? I like having actual, solid evidence. Until then, the default assumption is that they're not, because that's the actual default within Randland itself. People have to choose the Shadow (or, yes, be forced to it after much intensive psychological and physical torture or an often logistically impractical deployment of a 13x13 squad).

 

Also, just to clarify, I'm only talking about the known upper ranks of the Aiel that we see a decent amount of in the novels (and not just WO's, but also the clan chiefs). If you wanna extend this to all Aiel leaders, period, then yes: odds are pretty good at least a few WOs and sept chiefs (and roofmistresses) are Shadowrunners. However, just to be Shai'tan's advocate for a moment., unlikely as it may be, it is actually possible that none of them are. Improbable, but very definitely possible.

You are making a evidence based case and he is making a sweeping statement about how you are discounting all WOs! I remember saying somewhere that there is always a chance of finding WO DF or DF in other unexpected places but we don't have any solid evidence to point to one particular person.

[NetSlider]

Are they giving free books for wackiest ideas ever? Because there are bunch of them floating around.

 

Hey, be nice!