A return to paganism

[Durinax]

Are we seeing a return to paganism and nature worship. I base this mostly aroudn the TR's and perrin I could see this working out in two ways, 1) perrin dies but in the process reveals his connection to wolves to his men or 2) someone notices him around a bunch of wolves or osme such one night and reveals his secret

 

and either way I could see the people of the TRs showing respect and paying respects to wolves eventually morphing into a paganistic practice

[The Fisher King]

Are we seeing a return to paganism and nature worship. I base this mostly aroudn the TR's and perrin I could see this working out in two ways, 1) perrin dies but in the process reveals his connection to wolves to his men or 2) someone notices him around a bunch of wolves or osme such one night and reveals his secret

 

and either way I could see the people of the TRs showing respect and paying respects to wolves eventually morphing into a paganistic practice

 

Well, the philosophy you are pontificating on here, really, is actually already a part of WOT;s existing mythology, and its history, mainly manifested in:

 

1 The Way of the Leaf

 

and

 

2 The original nature of the Aiel/Tu'athan

 

Now, as for *returning* to those ways, sure, it is very possible for the Wheel of Time to come back around to those philosophies (assuming, of course, that the Wheel itself isn't broken during Tarmon Gai'don).

 

 

 

Fish

[Durinax]

I mostly mean moving away from the creator and towards animalistic / nature dieties. Something akin to Celtic or druidism.

 

and both you mention are mostly just a set of beliefs on how to live your life while believing in the Creator/Dark One, kinda like catholicism and its derivitives I guess.

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, you have to remember that in the WoT world, there is actually a Creator and there's actually a Dark One and there's strong evidentiary support for the latter as well as support for someone who's powerful enough to imprison him in the first place, thus providing evidence for the Creator. It would be quite stupid to not have a religion that centers around them, so a pagan belief system that centers around wolves would seem kind of out there to me.

[username13]

The below quote is taken from The 13th Depository - What RJ Said Section

 

 

 

Question: I find it interesting that there is no formal theology in the series. Why is this?

 

Answer: This is a world where what might be called the proofs of religion are self-evident all the time. It seemed to me there was no necessity for the trappings of religion, which by and large are to reinforce us in our faith and to convince others. If your beliefs are made concrete and manifest around you at any given time there is not the need for that.

 

 

The lack of organized religion he explained with the fact that "Religion has been proven". Shai'tan, the Forsaken, the One Power are known and proven to exist, so there is no need for the big persuasion machines of "real" religion.

 

 

From this I believe that the uprising of religions will only occur when society feels it's needed. ie: everyone will need to suddenly forget about the Creator, Dark One, saidar, saidin etc. The beleif in these things are not actually Religions, they are facts, not faith. It's the equivalent of us starting a movement based in the belief of another Sun floating right alongside the current one in the sky. Everyone can see the sun so there's no need for faith or imagination

[Durinax]

I was mostly speaking futurewise, after the DO has been put away (I am presuming with a perfect seal) and belief in the Creator and DO would start to wane over time as the breaking and such became legends

[username13]

Sorry for not replying sooner but I kind of lost track of this post.

 

I don't believe that defeating the DO will abolish the belief in the Creator and DO. Firstly the belief is more an understanding of the way the Wheel of Time itself works. It's a part of their universe, much the same way as gravity or the sun is for us. Understanding of the Wheel has existed much the same since the Age of Legends, most probably before then, and has stood the test of time through rather large events such as the breaking.

 

A religion on the other hand, which requires belief, generally changes over the years to suit the people that believe in it. The people give it shape. Take Catholism as an example. They've changed the sabbath, abolished vows of poverty, created and melded holidays etc. to the changing needs of their followers and new cultures they came across.

 

The belief in the Wheel and Creator is unwavering. The DO is simply one aspect of the Wheel, if he were to die or become imprisoned once more, even to the extent that no one even remembered him, people will still believe in the Wheel. If Satan got hit by a bus while ducking out for a bottle of milk Christians, Jews and Muslims will still follow their religions because they're based on a belief in God/Allah and how they interact with other people. Their decendants wont necessarily go on to believe in say, druidism or Hindu or other polytheistic (sp?) religions.

 

Perrin and his pups show one aspect of an old way of life. I believe an understanding and greater knowledge of the Wolfbrothers may occur, but mostly in an academic kind of way, not in a religious way.

[yoniy0]

Jews don't believe in the existence of Satan, or Hell, for that matter. More to the point, I find it funny that RJ thinks the Creator is evident in the world. The OP is supernatural, as these things go, but it's by no means proof of a Creator existing. You have to ask yourself this: what did people believe in before the Bore was drilled? If they believed in the Creator, the Wheel and the Pattern, then that's religion, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jon Paul]

The OP is supernatural, as these things go, but it's by no means proof of a Creator existing.

 

Actually, the One Power is not supernatural. It's a part of the Pattern, it is not separate and objective to it. It's channellers are extraordinary though. The real question is.. why would a people so advanced fall into the quagmire of cyclical-philosophies of existence?

[Val Mickey]

Jews don't believe in the existence of Satan, or Hell, for that matter.

 

I never knew that!

But I do remember reading about Gehennah, and something about seven hells, seven earths, and seven heavens. And Satan is definitely referenced in The Book of Job, and other books have demons in them. Perhaps you mean they don't believe that Satan is the Devil (capital D), just a devil.

[yoniy0]

I never knew that!

But I do remember reading about Gehennah, and something about seven hells, seven earths, and seven heavens. And Satan is definitely referenced in The Book of Job, and other books have demons in them. Perhaps you mean they don't believe that Satan is the Devil (capital D), just a devil.

Gehennah might be referenced as a real location. I'm not sure. But Satan, in the book of Job? Do you know the passage?

As far as I know, the word 'angle' itself, as it appears in the Old Testament, merely stands for 'messenger'. Under those circumstances, how can a fallen angle be referenced in it?

Also, I dare you to find an actual demon in the Old Testament.

 

EDIT: Okay, I did some research online. It seems two prominent paragraphs are Isaiah 14:12-22 and Ezekiel 28:12-19. Both don't sound (to me, at least, but I should probably mention that I'm no expert) anything like what they're supposed to say in the original Hebrew. In both cases, the prophet is sent to intimidate a monarch of a neighboring country. As to the book of Job, I'm still not sure which passage you refer to, but I did find the following page.

[didymos]

Gehennah might be referenced as a real location. I'm not sure.

 

Gehenna originally referred to the Valley of Hinnom. See here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

It eventually acquired a meaning more or less equivalent to "Hell" ( and yes, it had that meaning within Judaism).

[yoniy0]

Gehenna originally referred to the Valley of Hinnom. See here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

It eventually acquired a meaning more or less equivalent to "Hell" ( and yes, it had that meaning within Judaism).

No, it did not - if you mean a place where damned souls suffer eternal punishment, and Satan rules. If all you meant was a place of sufferings, then you're right (it still does to a degree, though modern Hebrew is naturally affected by the Christian notion of Hell). But the difference here is that the living are the ones doing all the suffering, not the dead ).

I knew I remembered something. The Valley of Hinnom (or 'ggey ben hinnom', in Hebrew) was a specific valley on the outskirts of Jerusalem, where pagans (and Israelites, to their shame) used to offer human sacrifice (and children in particular) to their pagan gods.

Hell may refer to the Hebrew word 'ghe-he-nom' (which is derived from said valley) or 'she-ol' (which was sometimes translated as 'Hades', after the Greek god of the underworld).

To 'decend into hell (where it is 'she-ol')' simply meant to die in the original Hebrew - though a painful, degrading death.

[Mulk]

I'd have to do some digging as to the original language wording and whether it can or should be read as Satan or not; I think the word used was "accuser" which is one of the "titles" if you will of Satan. In any case, Val Mickey refers to Job, Chapters 1 and 2.

[Mulk]

On topic, I don't see that happening. Everyone believes that there is or was a Creator, and everyone is aware of the Dark One. Whether that might happen in the future is arguable, but it won't happen any time in the immediate future. Even 3k years after the Bore, they remember even if imperfectly, so that knowledge by extent will take many thousands of years to fade completely before the Wheel returns to the point it was at in the Age of Legends, when it is said they had forgotten the Dark One.

[yoniy0]

Unless victory is almost as bleak as defeat. Another Breaking, on a greater scale, coupled with tales of wolves coming to their aid in TG, might sprout a pagan religion.

 

Still, keeping to topic is no fun. So I'll add this (since I was wrong before, I feel I have to, even if it's off-topic. But you're right, I shouldn't have done it, before).

In any case, Val Mickey refers to Job, Chapters 1 and 2.

Yes, it seems I'm a dunce. It actually says 'Satan' in Job 2:1-7. I have no clue who the paragraph refers to, though evidently he's amongst the numbers of the so called 'sons of God'. I will have to do some research, now, since I was confident that the concept itself never existed in Judaism. Oh, well. That's that.

[Val Mickey]

Gehenna originally referred to the Valley of Hinnom. See here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

It eventually acquired a meaning more or less equivalent to "Hell" ( and yes, it had that meaning within Judaism).

No, it did not - if you mean a place where damned souls suffer eternal punishment, and Satan rules. If all you meant was a place of sufferings, then you're right (it still does to a degree, though modern Hebrew is naturally affected by the Christian notion of Hell). But the difference here is that the living are the ones doing all the suffering, not the dead ).

I knew I remembered something. The Valley of Hinnom (or 'ggey ben hinnom', in Hebrew) was a specific valley on the outskirts of Jerusalem, where pagans (and Israelites, to their shame) used to offer human sacrifice (and children in particular) to their pagan gods.

Hell may refer to the Hebrew word 'ghe-he-nom' (which is derived from said valley) or 'she-ol' (which was sometimes translated as 'Hades', after the Greek god of the underworld).

To 'decend into hell (where it is 'she-ol')' simply meant to die in the original Hebrew - though a painful, degrading death.

 

You're right. This is what I found in Louis Ginzberg's The History of the Jews :

The second day of creation was an untoward day in more than the one respect that it introduced a breach where before there had been nothing but unity; for it was the day that saw also the creation of hell. Therefore God could not say of this day as of the others, that He "saw that it was good." A division may be necessary, but it cannot be called good, and hell surely does not deserve the attribute of good.[54] Hell[55] has seven divisions,[36] one beneath the other. They are called Sheol, Abaddon, Beer Shahat, Tit ha-Yawen, Sha'are Mawet, Sha'are Zalmawet: and Gehenna. It requires three hundred years to traverse the height, or the width, or the depth of each division, and it would take six thousand three hundred[37] years to go over a tract of land equal in extent to the seven divisions.[38]

 

Each of the seven divisions in turn has seven subdivisions, and in each compartment there are seven rivers of fire and seven of hail. The width of each is one thousand ells, its depth one thousand, and its length three hundred, and they flow one from the other, and are supervised by ninety thousand Angels of Destruction. There are, besides, in every compartment seven thousand caves, in every cave there are seven thousand crevices, and in every crevice seven thousand scorpions. Every scorpion has three hundred rings, and in every ring seven thousand pouches of venom, from which flow seven rivers of deadly poison. If a man handles it, he immediately bursts, every limb is torn from his body, his bowels are cleft asunder, and he falls upon his face.[56] There are also five different kinds of fire in hell. One devours and absorbs, another devours and does not absorb, while the third absorbs and does not devour, and here is still another fire, which neither devours nor absorbs, and furthermore a fire which devours fire. There are coals big as mountains, and coals big as hills, and coals as large as the Dead Sea, and coals like huge stones, and there are rivers of pitch and sulphur flowing and seething like live coals.[60]

 

That book is available for free on Project Gutenberg, and is worth a read - lots of interesting stuff, like how Abraham drank milk from his little finger - with Bela, Mastema, Samael all making appearances.

 

So, Satan is considered a devil, not the Devil - to be honest, the New Testament doesn't give him a world to rule, IIRC, all he gets is a place to be chained in - Hell and Satan's rule grew out of stories and myths among the people. He is actually referred as the Prince of this World.

 

*makes sign to ward off evil.

[didymos]

Gehenna originally referred to the Valley of Hinnom. See here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

It eventually acquired a meaning more or less equivalent to "Hell" ( and yes, it had that meaning within Judaism).

No, it did not - if you mean a place where damned souls suffer eternal punishment, and Satan rules.

 

 

Well, we're talking Judaism, so obviously no: I didn't mean specifically Christian beliefs. Hence the "more or less equivalent".

 

If all you meant was a place of sufferings, then you're right

 

Yeah, that. More or less.

 

But the difference here is that the living are the ones doing all the suffering, not the dead.

 

Uh, no. It's still the souls of the dead who suffer, but it isn't eternal. Unless you're talking about what the word originally referred to, rather than the meaning it acquired, which is what I was talking about.

 

BTW, by "within Judaism" I meant such beliefs are to be found in the religion as a whole, and that the word was used in that context, and not that said beliefs are universally held by all those who subscribe to Judaism.