How Fades come to be.

[bloodyflamingthisandthat]

I think that Fades are the result of when the human stock that produces the Trollocs would have released a channeler. It explains why they can sense a person channeling, can Travel through shadows, can Bond Trollocs to them through Linking. Do we have any official word on this or is it so obvious that no one ever asked RJ or BS?

[Demiandre]

I only remember Luckers mentionning it. I don't remember any official quote from the author about it. But I think it is very possible. It explain the 13x13 trick, and it does make sense that Aginor wouldn't have tested the Myrrdraal for resonance (I don't even know if it is possible to test Myrrdraal...).

 

And Shaidar Haran could be a TP channeling human stock :)

[Val Mickey]

For the life of me, I cannot imagine Trollocs mating. Or a pregnant Trolloc. Or a midwife trolloc. Maybe they grow on trees.

[Sharaman]

It's been mentioned in the books as well as in quotes from RJ. I have access to neither at the moment.

Fades are an unplanned throwback.

Aginor mixed animal-human genes using the TP to create trollocs.

Every so often, a Fade is born, when the genetic mix creates some sort of a mutant.

Fades are always male. Aginor could never figure out how fades got their ability to shift around via shadows - Fades have no clue how they do it themselves. Other details scattered through the books such as their proto linking ability, inability to dream, etc.

[Elgee]

I think that Fades are the result of when the human stock that produces the Trollocs would have released a channeler. It explains why they can sense a person channeling, can Travel through shadows, can Bond Trollocs to them through Linking. Do we have any official word on this or is it so obvious that no one ever asked RJ or BS?

 

Never even thought of that ... it would explain a lot!

 

Sharaman, does it definitely state that ALL Fades are male, or only the ones we see, or that we just assume they're male?

 

Maybe the female half of the "Fade Source" is tainted, and they get offed :P

[Luckers]

There is no answer on this, but I have long liked the idea that Myrdraal occur when the human gene for channeling breeds true in Trollocs. :)

[Demiandre]

So Myrrdraal would be sparkers, right?

[Luckers]

So Myrrdraal would be sparkers, right?

 

Or even just learners. By the number of Myrdraal I'd say that if this is right, then its any Trolloc with the gene for channeling (i.e. any that, had they been human, would have had the ability to learn to channel).

[Elgee]

I still maintain that Luckers is really a member of the WoT writing team *eyes suspiciously*

[FarShainMael]

For the life of me, I cannot imagine Trollocs mating. Or a pregnant Trolloc. Or a midwife trolloc. Maybe they grow on trees.

 

Er..

 

..is Mesaana pregnant?

[Demiandre]

Luckers, we don't have the number of Myrrdraals. At most, we have the proportion in a raiding party or army. That doesn't count the ones in the Blight, where the proportion could be higher or lower. But maybe you're refering to a percentage that has been given. If so sorry.

 

Does Myrrdraal appear at birth, or later? Don't remember

[Luckers]

Luckers, we don't have the number of Myrrdraals. At most, we have the proportion in a raiding party or army.

 

Indeed, yet Trolloc society is formed around their military purpose, and we do have the numbers for that--one myrdraal per fist--so one per one hundred. Which is the same as the amount of channelers in the population.

[Ewandrina]

For the life of me, I cannot imagine Trollocs mating. Or a pregnant Trolloc. Or a midwife trolloc. Maybe they grow on trees.

 

Er..

 

..is Mesaana pregnant?

 

What makes you ask the question? Could be a good twist if she is but a very scary thought

 

Ewandrina

[Duskfire]

Cool idea! Never really thought of it before. Makes alot of sense. It would go a long way to explaining some of their powers which are very channeling-ish.

[Sharaman]

I think that Fades are the result of when the human stock that produces the Trollocs would have released a channeler. It explains why they can sense a person channeling, can Travel through shadows, can Bond Trollocs to them through Linking. Do we have any official word on this or is it so obvious that no one ever asked RJ or BS?

 

Never even thought of that ... it would explain a lot!

 

Sharaman, does it definitely state that ALL Fades are male, or only the ones we see, or that we just assume they're male?

 

Maybe the female half of the "Fade Source" is tainted, and they get offed :P

 

following quotes all from the theoryland dbase - http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

From the TGS tour (Brandon)

"Myrddraal are not Trollocs who can channel. Their powers are totally independent from the One Power. They really are just throwbacks to the human stock. Harriet added that there are also animal throwbacks, but they just die."

 

From a letter to Pam Korda 1995

 

Q: Where do Trollocs come from? Are there male and female Trollocs that mate? Are there only male Trollocs that mate with animals and/or humans to reproduce? Are Trollocs neuter, grown in a big vat at Shayol Ghul? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

RJ: WARNING--NOT FAMILY NEWSFROUP MATERIAL. CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED. "You know the original source, of course...a blending of human and animal genetic material in an effort to produce the "perfect"soldier, though as envisioned by somebody who had never seen combat. Yes, there are female Trollocs, though you don't want to know more than that...there was a clear statement of this actually--that Trollocs breed--when where Myrddraal come from was explained. Sometimes a Trolloc off-spring is a throwback, but not all the way back to human, and twisted. Thus, eyeless but with keen vision, very strong indeed though not in Trolloc-class, able to vanish into shadows & reappear in other shadows...There are no female Myrddraal; not even the laddie who made the Trollocs in the first place knew why...Myrddraal must have their "pleasures" with captured human women...there is no possibility of cross-breeding--it was tested, during the War of the Power, in the crudest sort of way; the Myrdraal isn't sterile, but its sperm kills both human and Trolloc ova--and the sex practices and other attributes of Myrddraal are such that a very strong woman might retain her sanity for six months, but very few do." {did I ask about the sex practices of Myrddraal? No, I didn't think so.} "For the record, a Trolloc could also have sex with a human...they are now two completely incompatible species, so there isn't any possibility of offspring--the Forsaken tested that out too... Trollocs are just not interested in human women sexually; to them, humans are just another food animal... Trollocs are of fairly low intelligence (I told you the designer was never in combat), so they would think of it about as we would having sex with sheep, though they would do it if ordered to. They'd just like it better if they could eat her afterwards."

[Demiandre]

Luckers, we don't have the number of Myrrdraals. At most, we have the proportion in a raiding party or army.

 

Indeed, yet Trolloc society is formed around their military purpose, and we do have the numbers for that--one myrdraal per fist--so one per one hundred. Which is the same as the amount of channelers in the population.

Ok, You won the argument, I'm convinced. Where do I sign to subcribe? : )

[Elgee]

Thanks for that, Sharaman!

 

Though I must point out that the theory which bloodyflaming put forward isn't exactly refuted by what Brandon said.

 

Brandon says that Fades are not Trollocs who can channel.

 

Bloodyflaming proposes that Fades are what might have been if the parents where human. The potential, or soul, if I understand both him and the explanations of what results in a person who can channel.

 

A subtle distinction, I know, but then I'm an Aes Sedai and used to listening veeery carefully

[FarShainMael]

For the life of me, I cannot imagine Trollocs mating. Or a pregnant Trolloc. Or a midwife trolloc. Maybe they grow on trees.

 

Er..

 

..is Mesaana pregnant?

 

What makes you ask the question? Could be a good twist if she is but a very scary thought

 

Ewandrina

 

I was thinking of Shaidar Haran's punishment of her in CoT21. but according to the RJ quote above, she isn't. Prob just as well

[OptimusPrime]

Ive had a similar thought myself. It also explains a lot more about Shaidar. He is simply a Fade able to channel the True Power, which the Dark one made taller to make it stand out. I think the Dark One can possess True Power channelers, depending on how much their humanity has been scraped away with True Power usage, but if a Fade could channel the True Power then it basically has very little humanity anyway, meaning it is basically configured specifically to hold a chunk of the Dark One. Shaidar Haran, a True Power wielding Fade, which enables him to be a receptacle for the Dark Ones mind. It has its own mind, which is a fraction of the Dark Ones mind in itself, but the fact that part of the Dark One is already in there means he can possess it with more of himself, as in, THE BOOMING VOICE< whenever he wants.

 

I think Shaidar Haran does not have his own body. The Dark One made a Fade that already existed into the body we see, to make its appearance worthy of something that would rival the Chosen. I think any Fade can be made into that receptacle and that Shaidar is simply the name of the portion of the Dark Ones mind that will dominate and allow more of him to possess it. In a sense I imagine Shaidar, the lesser part of the Dark Ones mind, to be like an agent from the Matrix. The Dark One can take over any True Power user, and he possesses them with Shaidar, but can then pull Shaidar out and put it in another True Power user and still get Shaidar.

 

I like speculating. But I think if this was right I can understand the Shaidar 0.5 thing a bit more. Maybe 0.5 was the portion of the mind, but without the ability to enter it with THE BOOMING VOICE.

 

So basically, heres how I think it could be.

 

-Fade, normal height and whatnot.

-The Dark One gives it True Power access, which is possible because it has the channeler gene. The Dark One makes it taller to mark it as special.

-Boom. The Dark One puts a part of his mind in it, replacing its original mind-the mind that is Shaidar is now in control of this body, which is possible because the Fade could channel the True Power.

-BOOM. The Dark One can now possess it directly with a greater portion of his mind, resulting in THE BOOMING VOICE through Shaidar, which can be done 24/7 because he is already present in this body. It is now like possessing himself with more of himself, much easier.

[Sentinel78]

Luckers, we don't have the number of Myrrdraals. At most, we have the proportion in a raiding party or army.

 

Indeed, yet Trolloc society is formed around their military purpose, and we do have the numbers for that--one myrdraal per fist--so one per one hundred. Which is the same as the amount of channelers in the population.

 

 

Everyone should agree that there is a genetic component to the Myrddraal showing up, whether it's a different expression of the channeling gene or not. Once this is accepted, you would think Ishamael (or the Myrddraal themselves) would have been smart enough to track breeding in order to encourage more Myrddraals. In other words, one myrddraal per first might be the current proportion, but that may very well have changed over time throughout the 3rd Age.

 

Likewise, the spark is dying out in Randland due to Aes Sedai being out of the breeding pool and men being gentled, it has maintained itself somewhat in Seanchan due to sul'dam having babies and it is probably higher than it was in the AoL in Shara due to the Ayyad's deliberate breeding program.

[Val Mickey]

I was thinking of Shaidar Haran's punishment of her in CoT21. but according to the RJ quote above, she isn't. Prob just as well

 

You do have some dark thoughts, FSM. That puts an entirely new slant on that scene for me, especially the part where Mr. Haran removes his clothes, err, sheds his armour.

[FarShainMael]

I didn't twig that at first (I'm an innocent soul really) until someone asked whether she'd been raped.

 

Actually, that brings me to a thought. Dear old RJ was altogether too casual in his treatment of the subject. Women have been kknown to commit suicide afterwards, and as for its being SH doing it.. I doubt whether even one of the FS would have retained her sanity.

[Corlock]

I didn't twig that at first (I'm an innocent soul really) until someone asked whether she'd been raped.

 

Actually, that brings me to a thought. Dear old RJ was altogether too casual in his treatment of the subject. Women have been kknown to commit suicide afterwards, and as for its being SH doing it.. I doubt whether even one of the FS would have retained her sanity.

 

But you forget, Messanna is one of the Forsaken, if she offed herself, unless she managed to balefire herself, which I'm not sure is possible due to how balefire works, the Dark One would just bring her back to life. Remember, he only punished her, which meant he still had use for her, so if she offed herself, he'd bring her back to continue doing whatever it was he needed her doing. Therefore, Messanna really has no choice. Even if she offs herself, she comes back, so there's no point to her offing herself.

[FarShainMael]

Valid point.

 

And then there's Morgase, and her forced dalliance with Pedron Niall Eamon Valda. Morgase is strong, but there are limits.

 

(Oops..!)

[GYLD]

Morgase was about to throw herself out the window of the Fortress of Light, after her "encounters" with Valda I believe, so it'd be fair to say she did reach her limit.