Taveren

[DemandredFO]

Why is Perrin such a moron. I'm relistening to the books and I'm almost done with tDR. Perrin has been told he is taveren, yet he doesn't accept it. He's so blithly stupid about the obvious that he blurts out, "why me moraine, Rand is the bloody Dragon Reborn," in front of strangers. I doubt even Mat would be that stupid, and Perrin thinks why me several times. He resists the wolves and gets people killed because of it. He almost dies for Faile, thus nearly comprimising the Light. He goes home wanting to die even though he should know better and only accidentally does right. Instead of doing something useful, he's twiddling his thumbs in FoH. He does use the wolves in LoC because of Rand. He dithers in CoS and PoD instead of having the Asha'Man rip Masema's mob apart. From WH till nearly the present he goes after Faile, and again, only accidently does right.

Mat wants to be a rapscallion and wishes to get away from Rand, yet he is good. In EotW, tGH he's mostly part of Rand. After his healing, he wants to leave TV post haste but wishes to see the wonder girls. He gets Elayne's letter, thanks them effusively and leaves. While en route he gives money to that woman in Arangil I believe, saves Aludra and goes to Caemlyn. I forget, he drags Thom, a VIP, out of his depression. In Caemlyn he finds out Rahvin is bad and goes to Tear to save the girls. With BA and a Foresaken and defenders, he still goes. In tSR, he wants to leave but can't; he goes with Rand to the waste. He gets his memories and wishes he didn't. He tries to escape again but always runs into fighting. In LoC he tries to save egwene and then prodded by Thom, tries to help her. In CoS he saves Nyn and Elayne and is nearly killed. He later kidnaps Tuon and protects her, fighting a battle for her.

After this longwinded catalogue of Mat and Perrin, my question is why is Perrin seemingly less tied to Rand than Mat? Mat is seemingly the better person and doesn't endanger Rand's destiny.

[Durinax]

Well mat hasnt been in the same kind of situation as perrin. I dont think mat would have been able to do as good in the Two Rivers, I think any of the three would have sacraficed themselves for the Two Rivers.

 

Rand was willing to sacrifice his hand to protect min and potentially die. Why cant perrin be willing to sacrafice himself for his love?

 

I am sure Mat is willing to sacrafice himself for Tuon

 

As for perrin being able to leave Rands presence easier it is because that was what the pattern/rand needed at the time

[Moon Sedai]

Mat fights his "taveren" reputation just as hard, if not harder, than "Lord" Perrin.

Mat, like his friends, hates being called Lord.

 

He seemingly dislikes being a battle leader, and running an army.

 

He doesn't see the pattern shifting around him, and thus, the pattern gives him a case of "head dice" to warn him about the shifts, so he knows something is happening.

 

And some of the pattern-bending stuff is his own fault.

 

Mat HATES the idea of Marriage, but rushes into it (as accidental as Perrin's heroics in Two Rivers) because he was told by the Finns who he would marry.

 

He took charge the Red Hand by accident, as well.

The pattern keeps Mat near Rand because The pattern needs him nearby. Had he left any of the times he wanted to, he would have missed the chances to lead his army, get the memories in his head, marry Tuon.

 

But Mat is Awesome. I like Mat.

[Durinax]

mat is just put into better circumstances that allow him to be more well liked

[Val Mickey]

The Pattern makes Sovarra lace look like a piece of string.

[OptimusPrime]

The Pattern demands more of Mat than it does than Perrin, Mat is the Hornblower, which is basically plan B for when the Dragon turns Dark. Perrin is expendable compared to Rand and Mat.

[BrandonXRoss]

I think the important thing to note here is that ta'verens aren't the only ones who are critical to the pattern. Those people who are ta'veren can be influenced by people who aren't. Sometimes this influence is critical.

 

If Perrin hadn't spoken hastily about Rand being tDR they might have shaken Faile off. Once he said that Morraine wasn't going to let her go. Morraine had suggested earlier that she might tie Faile up and leave her. Also consider that Perrin is normally supposed to be someone who thinks things out. His speaking without thinking could easily be one of those twistings of chance caused by ta'veren. Also, they were all exceptionally whiny back then; carefree non-ambitious country teenagers suddenly thrust into a life of great responsibility and danger.

 

If Perrin had not saved Faile he might not have heard that the Two Rivers was being held by white cloaks. The trollocs would have probably killed Tam, and potentially many undiscovered channelers, also destroying a place that many refugees were fleeing to. They might have even killed Verrin and Alana who were hiding out there as well.

 

If Tam had died, Rand might never have been driven to destroy the choedan'cal, not to mention that the additional stress when he found out could have critically quickened the sickness and insanity of the taint.

 

If Verrin had died, Egwene would have a considerably more difficult time purging the WT.

 

If Alana had died then she would have never bonded Rand against his will. Without that the Aes Sedai wouldn't have been able to be at Dumai's Wells to swear to Rand.

 

Even if Perrin did hear about the white cloaks holding the Two Rivers, he probably would have just turned himself in, without Faile to push him into fighting.

 

If it weren't for Faile getting captured by the Shidoh then Perrin would have never destroyed them. With hundreds of channelers they were a very dangerous enemy for Rand to have. Also, Perrin would have brought the insane Masema directly to Rand, and who knows what kind of trouble that might have caused...

 

[OptimusPrime]

I think the important thing to note here is that ta'verens aren't the only ones who are critical to the pattern. Those people who are ta'veren can be influenced by people who aren't. Sometimes this influence is critical.

 

If Perrin hadn't spoken hastily about Rand being tDR they might have shaken Faile off. Once he said that Morraine wasn't going to let her go. Morraine had suggested earlier that she might tie Faile up and leave her. Also consider that Perrin is normally supposed to be someone who thinks things out. His speaking without thinking could easily be one of those twistings of chance caused by ta'veren. Also, they were all exceptionally whiny back then; carefree non-ambitious country teenagers suddenly thrust into a life of great responsibility and danger.

 

If Perrin had not saved Faile he might not have heard that the Two Rivers was being held by white cloaks. The trollocs would have probably killed Tam, and potentially many undiscovered channelers, also destroying a place that many refugees were fleeing to. They might have even killed Verrin and Alana who were hiding out there as well.

 

If Tam had died, Rand might never have been driven to destroy the choedan'cal, not to mention that the additional stress when he found out could have critically quickened the sickness and insanity of the taint.

 

If Verrin had died, Egwene would have a considerably more difficult time purging the WT.

 

If Alana had died then she would have never bonded Rand against his will. Without that the Aes Sedai wouldn't have been able to be at Dumai's Wells to swear to Rand.

 

Even if Perrin did hear about the white cloaks holding the Two Rivers, he probably would have just turned himself in, without Faile to push him into fighting.

 

If it weren't for Faile getting captured by the Shidoh then Perrin would have never destroyed them. With hundreds of channelers they were a very dangerous enemy for Rand to have. Also, Perrin would have brought the insane Masema directly to Rand, and who knows what kind of trouble that might have caused...

 

 

I think these are things that arent necessarily important individuals, I see these as the Ta'veren/Pattern simply grabbing what is nearby. Alanna was going to bond Perrin first IIRC, but ended up bonding Rand. This IMO was more of a sign that Rand will need the endurance of the Warder bond. Its true to a point about the Aes Sedai finding Rand, but... look at it this way. If those Aes Sedai werent there to swear fealty to Rand they would have been another situation where they did it, the same sort of situation as we see with the Sea Folk blurting things out to Rand. If the Aes Sedai were "supposed" to have sworn they would still have done it if Dumais Wells hadnt happened.

 

Dumais Wells IMO is a big sign of Taims skills. In a very subtle way as well as the obvious tactical knowledge he has.

 

Anyway I dont think anyone but Heroes and Ta'veren are strictly important. For example, I might be reading into this way too much but... is it me, or has the Pattern been trying to stop Rand from the uber hardness thing for quite a while? The fact that he became linked with Moridin made him unable to channel properly, a dint in his formidability. Then Semirhage blasts away his hand because someone he loved stood behind him. Another dint. The two building blocks of the hardness, as of KoD, were compromised, making it only a matter of time for the TGS plot of shedding the hardness. Right? Well is it me, or was Semirhage supposed to blow Rands hand off? Is it me, or was Min guided by the Pattern, through Rands own Ta'verenism, to help him get on the right path, achieving this by making Min stand exactly behind Rand when Semirhage lashed out? I may very well be reading into this too much but I dont think I am considering how rapid the progression in TGS was, how significant it was with the hardness/dark Ta'verenism. It looks to me that the Pattern was desperately trying to stop its champion from getting any worse, willing to literally cripple him if it stopped him from turning Dark. Why would the Wheel do this? Because Rand doesnt need to wield a sword or even channel to do his job, it wont be Rand that reseals the Bore, his job is to weaken the Dark One so someone else can do that IMO. A frame of mind thing, to die still wanting the Pattern to exist, to get through the Dark Ones assault without giving in, that is all Rand must do, but his path was too far from this so... the Pattern puts Min-but ONLY because she was nearby, Aviendha or Elayne would have done but Min is also the only one who cant defend against a channeler-the Pattern puts Min, someone Rand LOVES, love being the key to get through to him, the Pattern puts her behind him where he MUST think of her above being deadly against Semirhage. So he takes the bullet and cant fight anymore. But who was to blame, Rand for not moving, Min for being there, Semirhage for disobeying orders, or the Pattern for trying to stop its ultimate weapon from becoming its worst enemy? I mean the Horn still exists so there is plan B, but plan A, keeping the Dragon onside, that is still the safer option, and a few physical wounds mean nothing in this battle. A hand and some eyesight and some channeling being missing from your Champion is better than your Champion championing for your enemy.

 

Sorry about the length of that. Do you see what I mean though? The people like Min, Alanna, and the other non-Ta'verens, they are replaceable. Mins ability is useful yes, but if she had died early on there would be Dreamers and Foretellers around Rand by now.

[Silver]

Mat fights his "taveren" reputation just as hard, if not harder, than "Lord" Perrin.

Mat, like his friends, hates being called Lord.

 

He seemingly dislikes being a battle leader, and running an army.

 

He doesn't see the pattern shifting around him, and thus, the pattern gives him a case of "head dice" to warn him about the shifts, so he knows something is happening.

 

And some of the pattern-bending stuff is his own fault.

 

Mat HATES the idea of Marriage, but rushes into it (as accidental as Perrin's heroics in Two Rivers) because he was told by the Finns who he would marry.

 

He took charge the Red Hand by accident, as well.

The pattern keeps Mat near Rand because The pattern needs him nearby. Had he left any of the times he wanted to, he would have missed the chances to lead his army, get the memories in his head, marry Tuon.

 

But Mat is Awesome. I like Mat.

 

 

Mat hasn't really fought his Ta'varen nature since early on in book 4. After that, he may grumble about it but never fights his path and responsibilities.

[Demiandre]

Sorry, but Mat doesn't want to fight battle. He doesn't want to be a lord. He doesn't want to be near Aes Sedai. Yet in the end, he marry the Empress, save 6 female chanellers, and end up one of the greatest. And he avoid Ra yet shall be present at his side at Tarmon Gai'Don. And always saying : "I'm no bloody hero", yet saving everybody he can

 

If he isn't struggling against his nature, what is he doing?

[Ashlyn]

Sorry, but Mat doesn't want to fight battle. He doesn't want to be a lord. He doesn't want to be near Aes Sedai. Yet in the end, he marry the Empress, save 6 female chanellers, and end up one of the greatest. And he avoid Ra yet shall be present at his side at Tarmon Gai'Don. And always saying : "I'm no bloody hero", yet saving everybody he can

 

If he isn't struggling against his nature, what is he doing?

 

I think his protests are more habit than anything else by now. It's like Murtough in the Lethal Weapon movies: "I'm too old for this ..." and then he does it anyway, no worries.

[Durinax]

Sorry, but Mat doesn't want to fight battle. He doesn't want to be a lord. He doesn't want to be near Aes Sedai. Yet in the end, he marry the Empress, save 6 female chanellers, and end up one of the greatest. And he avoid Ra yet shall be present at his side at Tarmon Gai'Don. And always saying : "I'm no bloody hero", yet saving everybody he can

 

If he isn't struggling against his nature, what is he doing?

 

I think his protests are more habit than anything else by now. It's like Murtough in the Lethal Weapon movies: "I'm too old for this ..." and then he does it anyway, no worries.

one could argue it is the same for perrin. although I see his trouble with being a lord, he is a very hard worker and used to seeing his work take shape in front of him and doing it himself, whereas as a lord he does no physical work, instead he has to use his intellect and cant be sure if the job is getting done correctly

[yoniy0]

In Caemlyn he finds out Rahvin is bad

Does that really require discovering?

 

Mat hasn't really fought his Ta'varen nature since early on in book 4. After that, he may grumble about it but never fights his path and responsibilities.

What do you call trying to escape before the battle of Cairhien? He failed to escape, true, but he did TRY.

 

 

Seriously, I think Perrin's the last of the boys to hold on to his immaturity. I don't know why he was able to do it. After all, the Wheel left Rand and Mat no choice but to grow up. Perrin, on the other hand, doesn't yet understand his role in all of this (for that matter, I don't understand his role either). Hopefully, that will no longer be the case post-ToM.

[Corlock]

Perrin is the Wolf King, he will pick up the pieces after the Last Battle. He will rebuild the world.

[OptimusPrime]

Perrin is the Wolf King, he will pick up the pieces after the Last Battle. He will rebuild the world.

 

And the next time he saves Rand will be in T'A'R after Rand has already died and is waiting to live again. The bad guys kill Rand, then go to T'A'R to kill him, which would be a permanent death, but Perrin will save him, calling living and dead wolves alike to save Shadowkiller.

[Ashlyn]

Sorry, but Mat doesn't want to fight battle. He doesn't want to be a lord. He doesn't want to be near Aes Sedai. Yet in the end, he marry the Empress, save 6 female chanellers, and end up one of the greatest. And he avoid Ra yet shall be present at his side at Tarmon Gai'Don. And always saying : "I'm no bloody hero", yet saving everybody he can

 

If he isn't struggling against his nature, what is he doing?

 

I think his protests are more habit than anything else by now. It's like Murtough in the Lethal Weapon movies: "I'm too old for this ..." and then he does it anyway, no worries.

one could argue it is the same for perrin. although I see his trouble with being a lord, he is a very hard worker and used to seeing his work take shape in front of him and doing it himself, whereas as a lord he does no physical work, instead he has to use his intellect and cant be sure if the job is getting done correctly

 

True, but why is it that his confidence seems to lag so far behind that of Mat and Rand? I'm just worried that he'll go into "But I don't know how to be a lord/hero/fighter" at a critical moment and get someone (or a lot of someones) killed.

[Durinax]

Sorry, but Mat doesn't want to fight battle. He doesn't want to be a lord. He doesn't want to be near Aes Sedai. Yet in the end, he marry the Empress, save 6 female chanellers, and end up one of the greatest. And he avoid Ra yet shall be present at his side at Tarmon Gai'Don. And always saying : "I'm no bloody hero", yet saving everybody he can

 

If he isn't struggling against his nature, what is he doing?

 

I think his protests are more habit than anything else by now. It's like Murtough in the Lethal Weapon movies: "I'm too old for this ..." and then he does it anyway, no worries.

one could argue it is the same for perrin. although I see his trouble with being a lord, he is a very hard worker and used to seeing his work take shape in front of him and doing it himself, whereas as a lord he does no physical work, instead he has to use his intellect and cant be sure if the job is getting done correctly

 

True, but why is it that his confidence seems to lag so far behind that of Mat and Rand? I'm just worried that he'll go into "But I don't know how to be a lord/hero/fighter" at a critical moment and get someone (or a lot of someones) killed.

if you look you can see how he alwats has low confidence, when the series starts he speaks slowly with great deal of thought (to avoid beign made fun of) and he is scared to roughhouse because he thinks he will hurt them (because he doesnt think he has enough control (which later we see with the wolves)), add to that his inability to understand his wife and how she wants to be treated. I dont think we will see him back down from a fight though because he does go into a blood rage which is pretty sweet, I think we have to worry about him not thinking an action through which could jeopardize things