Who will turn?!

[maximus34]

Big deal in my opinion, but who do we all think will turn to the dark/ betray the light and whatnot to endanger the lights hopes?

[Victoria Gwyn]

Well, I am torn with this one. Mostly it's because I believe that several are darkfriends that we just don't have confirmation of yet....

 

But if I were to pick someone I think "most likely to turn?" Perrin. I mean, wouldn't that put a hard to with Rand? I know he's loyal to him. But I also see how he feels he's lead along on strings (Rand). I don't know that he will consider himself a darkfriend but merely standing against the Aes Sedai. Will he remain loyal to Rand? What if it costs him his wife? These are some things I think could turn him....if not to the dark, at least away from Rand..

[Zardi]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Perrin, whatever effect Faile has had on him, is smart enough to know that the world needs to back Rand (or at least work with him) in order to win TG. That's not to say that they'll always be friends. I buy that something could happen to completely destroy their friendship, especially if Faile is involved.

[Rumor]

The women in our ta'verens' lives could lead to any of them turning as a possibility...even Mat. Perrin will do anything for Faile and that's been expressed often enough in his POVs to make me sick. Mat's clearly in love with Tuon and plus shares Rand's obsession with not killing women, evil or not. And Rand could very well cave as well for the supposed benefit of one of his trio (I say supposed because dealing with the devil never quites ends up how one expects). That said, it's a cop out in my opinion to have this happen for any of them because it's too obviously possible...If one of them does turn (which I do hope does not happen) I would rather it be for some reason completely unrelated to their women, just so that it's interesting. Otherwise, it's just boring...no twist, just a possible natural progression.

[Luckers]

Actually Mat's been fairly clear-thinking. He specifically tells Tuon that very likely the next time they meet it will be accross a battlefield... and since neither Tuon nor Faile are darkfriends i dont see either Mat or Perrin having that held over them.

 

The big problem with this is that a majority of those in power we know are not dark. I think maybe Roedan, Lelaine, Javindrah, possibly one of the borderlanders though i doubt it... it would be hard for a borderlander ruler at any stage in his life to find his way into a darkfriend meeting. I think the thirteen Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are darkfriends.

 

Theres already a thread on this... in the memory of light forum i believe... that pretty much discusses everyone in depth.

[Rumor]

I agree that Mat has been pretty clear thinking and that he's unlikely to turn over Tuon, but I was only saying that any of them could turn over their respective woman (or women in Rand's case). I don't think the fact that Faile and Tuon and Min and Elayne and Aviendha are not darkfriends matters - in fact if any were revealed to be so, I think all three ta'veren have shown themselves level-headed enough to be horrified and certainly not sacrifice anything for them.

 

I was considering danger to the ladies' persons - in Mat's specific case, he did indeed inform Tuon that they would likely be on opposite sides the next time he faced Seanchan, but I don't believe he would extend that to her personally. What I mean is, if Tuon betrayed Rand somehow, I don't think Mat would betray her personally in favor of Rand despite what she did...on the other hand, if her troops did something Rand didn't like, Mat would fight them; but he would be in no direct danger of harming Tuon herself in doing so. And if she were in personal danger from the DO's minions, he would do anything in his power to save her. In Perrin's specific case, I think he's the most likely to be irrationally drawn to do something drastic and horrible to save Faile, but he may have the wolves to help him keep his head straight.

[Zardi]

I have to disagree with you again. Mat has feelings for Tuon, but he has been friends with Rand his entire life. Not only that, but he knows Rand has to win against the Dark One, and that Rand can't do it without all the support he can get. If Tuon continues to work against Rand, I think that Mat would more likely try to turn her to Rand's side, rather than turn from Rand himself.

 

Perrin is a bit more iffy, because he's anything but level-headed when it comes to Faile. However, would he really be so far gone as to think that joining the Dark could save Faile in any circumstance? If the Dark wins TG, then everyone is screwed; it won't matter if Faile was "saved" from whatever trouble she was in.

 

We have seen Perrin make a deal with someone he considers to be the enemy, but he felt awful about it, and he used it as a last resort. The Seanchan are not Darkfriends, in any case, even if Perrin thought it felt like he was "making a deal with the Dark One." He can tell the difference between that and a deal with the actual Dark One.

[Rumor]

I must have misstated what I meant or you misunderstood mean...I did not mean to say Mat would turn on Rand, particularly not with time to think. I agree Mat would try to turn Tuon to Rand rather than turn on Rand and I also think he wouldn't give up on doing that. But I'm not talking about the frictions going on between the people who need to band together against the DO; I'm talking about the battle against the DO. In THAT fight, all I was really saying about any of the three was that to save the life of a woman he loved in a clinch moment with little-to-no-time to think that any of them might make a dire irrational choice...

[Rumor]

And let me also say, I don't think it will happen at all...I especially don't think Mat would turn or Rand and not really Perrin either. I think they're all strong enough to handle the sacrifice that I'm saying one or more may be presented with. It's just that the possible path is there and let me reiterate that I think it would be a cop out (man sacrifices world for woman he loves) for it to happen.

[Shinobi]

I think that taim will turn along with a chunk of the black tower because in one book Logain says that most of the black tower is loyal to taim not you and hes planning somthing Logain said somthing like that also how could taim keep the madness away from himself for 13 years i think.

[newsun]

Taim, I believe already confirmed his allegences when he talked about orders from two of the chosen, in winter's heart or twilight crossing. I think Rand is the most likely to turn due to the path he is already walking, he acts so similar to many of the chosen feeling like everyone is out to get him and he must do everything on his own. Although, I would not like it to come to this, it may be the case where, the struggle for rands life is against the shadow in his soul. He may end up having to die in the Dark to live in the Light, also he is the one who is to break the Dark One out of the Bore, it seesm like that could be leading him there as well.

[Luckers]

On the madness... some argument could be made that Taim HAS gone mad. An insanity that doesn't stop him from functioning in society, but an insanity nonetheless.

 

I don't hold to that argument personally (for starters, the taint also causes a rotting sickness) but it can be made.

[DemandredFO]

Luckers, I'm not being sarcastic or anything but Ingtar was a darkfriend and Rand almost died because of him. He was a high borderland lord. Otherwise, keep up the good work

[Luckers]

I said ruler, not lord. Ingtar had the freedom to wander off by himself, but the borderlander rulers would have been surounded by people since birth. And you can be sure that in the borderlands people would be watching for signs that their leaders were of the Shadow.

[OzzieAlThor]

None of the 3 taveren will go evil unless forced by an evil circle of 13.

 

An in the Last Battle it will be good vs. evil, so unless Rand's Harem, Faile or Tuon are actually evil, protecting them from something during TG will automatically mean they are killing/hurting something evil.

 

Now if you want to talk about turning, start suggesting people like Logain, Sheriam, One of the Band's generals, etc.

 

Those are the people (since we don't get to see their POV's often, if ever) who possibly COULD be doing what they're doing for whatever nefarious reason.

[schizm]

I think without a doubt Taim will turn or already has with a vast majority of the black tower. At the end of the last book when the aes sedai was there to discuss bonding asha'man, Taim said let the lord of chaos rule.

 

That right there tells where his loyalties will lie in the coming book. I think there are others that will change as well. People we don't expect in any way. But it is too difficult to sort through everyone and come up with any concrete proof on anyone.

[Luckers]

Taim certainly, and maybe a hundred of his men, if Pevara POV and Logain's comments can be taken into account.

 

Sheriam... i would be interested to see that mystery solved. Who is beating her up? Why is she coming so close to breaking? Why was a grey man found in her bed.

[The Magus]

There is another side to this question that I have always wondered about.

 

Did all of the Forsaken voluntarily go over to the Dark Side, or is it possible that one or more were "turned" to the dark by the thirteen Myrdhhal/13 AEA Sedai circle?

 

Some seem to have private grudges and ambition (i.e., Sammael, Demandred) that encouraged them to switch, but I have always suspected that Graendal may have originally been turned in this fashion. Why? Mostly because her pre-Forsaken persona, one of an ascetic eschewing worldy pleasures, seems to be the exact opposite of her Forsaken persona, where she revels in them. And her motivations to switching to the dark always seem quiet vague, other than in interest in power.

 

Sadly, we do not have much information on what "turning" does to a person, but it would explain quiet a bit if it basically flipped their personality upside down. Kind becomes cruel, peaceful becomes violent, good becomes evil, ascetic becomes hedonist, etc. etc.

 

And back somewhat to the topic of the threat …. could it be reversed?

 

I suspect we will learn a lot more about this "turning" phenomenon in the last book, and I would not be surprised at all if (i) one of the forsaken was turned back, and (ii) one of the major characters (such as Egwene) is put in a position where turning is a real possibility.

 

As for the first, I am not sure there is enough time for a whole "Graendal returns to the light" story line - Semirhage might be a better bet, but I think she turned to the dark for her own sadistic reasons.

 

And wouldn't it be interesting if unlikely if Rand himself is turned …. particularly with his multiple personalities and multiple warder bonds.

[n00l3y]

hmm...I'm not sure about the forceful turning thing myself, to be honest. If/When it is used, depends on how much RJ wants to hurt us. He could be nasty and turn one of the main characters into a dark friend, but probably not Mat, Perrin or Rand. Then again he could just use it as a threat or as a sort of foreknowledge, while the actual event is not seen. But if it does happen, a hurting blow would be to Lan. Sad, I know, but it would add so much depth to the story. I mean, it'll be such an epic battle if Rand and the corrupted Lan face each other off, with Rand winning. Then it would give reason for Nynaeve to return to the Two Rivers, as is a possible theory, as a fully mellowed person, reflecting about the whole sad plot.

 

As for people likely to turn to the dark willingly, I doubt it'll be like Star Wars, where someone is pulled to the dark for a loved one's sake. I would say Gawyn would be a potential canditate, cause of his pure hatred for Rand, and if he misinterprets matters with Egwene, thinking that she is against Rand for whatever reason. One potential misunderstanding is if Egwene tries to humble Rand, but Gawyn sees this that she is against him. And, as we all know, his love for her mixed with his hatred for Rand may completely mess up his reasoning and logic.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I mean, it'll be such an epic battle if Rand and the corrupted Lan face each other off, with Rand winning.

 

Sorry, I don't think this would be much of a battle at all.

 

If they fight with swords, Rand One-hand gets toasted pretty quick-like.

 

And is they are really fighting, then Rand channels ... dead Lan.

 

And besides ... the forced turning only works on people who can channel, so Lan, Mat, Perrin, etc. can't be forced to turn.

[rochaid]

and a forsaken can't be forcibly turned because to turn someone you also need 13 myrddraal

[OzzieAlThor]

Anyone can be turned with the circl of 13 and all that jazz.

 

When it comes to one of them possibly having been turned, "The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time" ( http://www.amazon.com/World-Robert-Jordans-Wheel-Time/dp/0312862199 )states in a small amount of detail that eachof the forsaken went willingly.

 

That book is canon so therefore is correct. None were turned.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Anyone can be turned with the circl of 13 and all that jazz.

 

Uh, no, non-channelers cannot be turned.

 

"'There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be - opened to other things.' Egwene shuddered. 'Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as a I know - Light send it has not been done! - since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thriteen Myrdraal. You see? Not easily sone. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow.'" (The Dragon Reborn, The Price of the Ring, p.202)

 

Unless Sheriam was just flat out wrong, and we've seen no indication that she is, Lan, Mat and all non-channelers are safe from this.

[OzzieAlThor]

I'll check "The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time" later today.

 

It would make sense that if non-channlers can be compulsed by one person, then they can have their mind permanently altered by 13.

 

We'll see. 8)

[mikey sedai]

i'm really hoping that we get some really intense 'omg they're darkfriends!' moments in the last book. i don't really think we've had any involving established characters properly since TGH (liandrin and ingtar. taim's actions before he was introduced had him in a very dark shade of grey in my mind anyway. and delana? bleh!)

i think for one that annoura will be black. have read an interesting theory (not a theory as such) which suggested this.

but there's got to be some we're not expecting. if i can't spend the next two years trawling through the books looking for clues i'd missed previously then i'm gonna be severly ticked off!