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Questions of the Black Ajah


Mimiw
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Hello. I would like someone to please clarify something that have been bugging me for a bit of time now. It concerns the black ajah. I apologize in advance if this topic has been asked already. well then ill lay it out for you.

 

Firstly how is it possible for the members of the black to lie and retain agelessness? To achieve the trademark Aes Sedai feature one must swear on an oath rod. So then black sisters lying implies a release in the oaths about lying consequently a release from all 3 oaths. If this is so then blacks must lose the ageless face. of course im assuming that the agelessness disappears along with the release of the oaths So then how do they still have it? Verin was rather vague in describing the process of swearing to the dark one, nevertheless she never mentioned a hint of an oath rod in it so i'm at a loss here. :blink:

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Hello. I would like someone to please clarify something that have been bugging me for a bit of time now. It concerns the black ajah. I apologize in advance if this topic has been asked already. well then ill lay it out for you.

 

Firstly how is it possible for the members of the black to lie and retain agelessness? To achieve the trademark Aes Sedai feature one must swear on an oath rod. So then black sisters lying implies a release in the oaths about lying consequently a release from all 3 oaths. If this is so then blacks must lose the ageless face. of course im assuming that the agelessness disappears along with the release of the oaths So then how do they still have it? Verin was rather vague in describing the process of swearing to the dark one, nevertheless she never mentioned a hint of an oath rod in it so i'm at a loss here. :blink:

 

You dont lose the ageless face just because you unswear the oaths. At least its not an immediate process. We see various characters (mainly with Egwene's BA hunt plot) unswear the oaths, and they dont lose the face. Ture, they re-swear almost immediately, but this indicates that it is not an immediate effect that comes from stilling.

 

It may be that over time, the effects wear off, but we have no evidence to suggest an answer difinitively.

 

The Black Ajah swears on the oath rod, or another binder, their Darkfriend Oaths. WE see it with Talene and the Towers BA hunters.

 

Talene is forced to unswear (or the oath is forcibly removed) so she can reveal the BA plots.

 

Edit: Ahhh, got there before me :laugh: Ill leave the post up anyway

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I think that the agelessness comes with channeling, not swearing on the oath rod. The Kin are hundreds of years old, but they swore no oaths.

 

The Kin don't have an ageless look; they age slower. There is a slowing of the aging process and incresed longevity that comes with channeling. The swearing on the oath rod creates the ageless look common to Aes Sedei, it also shortens thier lifespans to a more normal age as well.

Edited by byondrch
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I think that the agelessness comes with channeling, not swearing on the oath rod. The Kin are hundreds of years old, but they swore no oaths.

 

The Ageless look and just being really old are different. Aes Sedai are the only ones described as having that Ageless face, where you cant distinguish between their age all that much. The Kin and Wise Ones just live a long long time but otherwise looks wise age as a normal person would. The Forsaken are the same; Egwene was a bit surprised to find out that they dont have that Ageless look as at the time she didnt associate it with the Oath Rod.

 

Basically, the way I see it, the Oath Rod was used for some criminals in the Age of Legends, and the Ageless face is a mark of sorts. A scarlet letter, so to speak.

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<br />
<br />I think that the agelessness comes with channeling, not swearing on the oath rod. The Kin are hundreds of years old, but they swore no oaths.<br />
<br /><br />The Kin don't have an ageless look; they age slower. There is a slowing of the aging process and incresed longevity that comes with channeling.  The swearing on the oath rod creates the ageless look common to Aes Sedei, it also shortens thier lifespans to a more normal age as well.<br />
<br /><br /><br />
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agelessness cant have anything to do with the oath rod. Verin we learn in tGS is black. And that swearing to the DO nullifies the 3 oaths. She was no longer bound by them. She had the ageless look and was along with cadsuane was one of the oldest living aes sedia. Verin had been a black sister a very long time but maintained her agelessness.

 

Also the Damane who has promised to help Rand end his life is older than any kin or aes sedia. Shes never seen an oath rod yet she looks much younger than cadsuane and has her by more than a 100 years

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James, it has been confirmed (or as near to it as you can get without asking) that they swear 3 oaths of their own, mostly because Ishamael knew about the cause of the ageless look and knew it required more than 1 (it doesnt say if you will get it at 2) oath and he set up the black ajah to begin with. SO yes, it has everything to do with the oath rod, and black sisters are bound by it as well, just to different oath (you could swear not to breath on an oath rod it will accept any oath).

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agelessness cant have anything to do with the oath rod. Verin we learn in tGS is black. And that swearing to the DO nullifies the 3 oaths. She was no longer bound by them. She had the ageless look and was along with cadsuane was one of the oldest living aes sedia. Verin had been a black sister a very long time but maintained her agelessness.

 

Also the Damane who has promised to help Rand end his life is older than any kin or aes sedia. Shes never seen an oath rod yet she looks much younger than cadsuane and has her by more than a 100 years

 

The Black Ajah do swear oaths still, they are just different to the standard Aes Sedai. The whole basis for Verin killing herself was so she could get around one of the Oaths, that which she couldnt betray the Dark One until the hour of her death. That is an oath right there; its not a standard one, but its still done using the Oath Rod.

 

As for Alivia, there is a difference between looking young and being ageless. To use a real life example, Tom Cruise looks young for his age. But he doesnt have an ageless appearence. Because swearing on the Oath Rod shortens your lifespan, Cadsuane by Aes Sedai age is old, like really old; she would be the equivelent of 100+ normal years. While Alivia who is older, hasnt had her lifespan shortened at all. Thus while she is older, she still has more of her life to live.

 

If you read through the series, or even use WoT Encylopedia, only Aes Sedai have only been referred to as having an Ageless appearence. Its entirely the Oath Rod. Its basically fact. Might as well say Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn :P

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James, it has been confirmed (or as near to it as you can get without asking) that they swear 3 oaths of their own, mostly because Ishamael knew about the cause of the ageless look and knew it required more than 1 (it doesnt say if you will get it at 2) oath and he set up the black ajah to begin with. SO yes, it has everything to do with the oath rod, and black sisters are bound by it as well, just to different oath (you could swear not to breath on an oath rod it will accept any oath).

 

 

Actually, it was 100000% confirmed in the book itself. Galina says it in [ACOS: 40, Spears, 626] Galina makes it clear that the BA are not bound by the Three Oaths: "She had broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity..." So, the BA are not bound to the Three Oaths that the non-black AS swear. (WOTFAQ)

 

The word "replaced" occurs when people forswear the oaths and put them back on. Also there's the fact that Talene was able to forswear he black oaths on an Oath Rod, meaning that the BA use one, too. If they use something else, I doubt that the OR trick would have worked.

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agelessness cant have anything to do with the oath rod. Verin we learn in tGS is black. And that swearing to the DO nullifies the 3 oaths. She was no longer bound by them. She had the ageless look and was along with cadsuane was one of the oldest living aes sedia. Verin had been a black sister a very long time but maintained her agelessness.

 

As others have stated, the Black Ajah swear three new Oaths upon the Oath Rod after removing their first three. This is the cause of their Agelessness--and yes, it has been confirmed that the agelessness is caused by swearing on the Oath Rod.

 

Q: Is it true that the Three Oaths is why Aes Sedai [mumble mumble] I thought it might be because, when you try to avoid the Three Oaths, you get a lot of dangerous situation [mumble mumble]...

RJ: No . . . now you have to be careful with this, because this is a kind of spoiler for people that haven’t read far enough, but the Oath Rod is what was in the Age of Legends called a binder. It was used on criminals. If you committed a violent act, or some sort of criminal act, with a binder, someone who could channel could be constrained from ever doing that again, and the result of having three of the Oaths, is the ageless appearance. One would not produce agelessness, but even one would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai’s lives, on how long they could live.

 

 

Additionally, Verin is not amongst the oldest of Aes Sedai--she is between 113 and 146 years of age, as per Merana's comments in LoC.

 

Also the Damane who has promised to help Rand end his life is older than any kin or aes sedia. Shes never seen an oath rod yet she looks much younger than cadsuane and has her by more than a 100 years

 

She doesn't look younger than Cadsuane as Cadsuane is ageless and cannot have an age ascribed to her. Alivia looks in her late forties, early fifties--which is accurate for a channeler of her strength in her fourth century. That has nothing to do with the Oath Rod.

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She doesn't look younger than Cadsuane as Cadsuane is ageless and cannot have an age ascribed to her. Alivia looks in her late forties, early fifties--which is accurate for a channeler of her strength in her fourth century. That has nothing to do with the Oath Rod.

 

It's quite astonishing when you consider that due to the extended lifetime, it's possible, if by a long shot, that an Aes Sedai could have seen both the end of the Breaking and the beginning of the Trolloc Wars. At least, if not for the Oath Rod...

 

Remembering Hawkwing's face just isn't as impressive as it used to be.

 

-- dwn

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Just a question : why did Verin said that the method of swearing the Oaths to the DO was quite specific and binding, and she doubted that the OR could undo that. I think she has been made to swear differently than the OR.

 

But unfortuantely, I in the beginning thought she had been 13x13ed, but she wouldn't have been able to write down all the names of the Black Ajah members.

 

Edit : dwn, it's funny that even without the memories Mat gained through the doorframe ter'angreal, he coumd remember Hawkwing's face from Falme.

Edited by Demiandre
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She doesn't look younger than Cadsuane as Cadsuane is ageless and cannot have an age ascribed to her. Alivia looks in her late forties, early fifties--which is accurate for a channeler of her strength in her fourth century. That has nothing to do with the Oath Rod.

 

It's quite astonishing when you consider that due to the extended lifetime, it's possible, if by a long shot, that an Aes Sedai could have seen both the end of the Breaking and the beginning of the Trolloc Wars. At least, if not for the Oath Rod...

 

Remembering Hawkwing's face just isn't as impressive as it used to be.

 

-- dwn

 

 

No, its not possible for an Aes Sedai to have lived from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars. Channelers with the health benefits, quality of life and sung food live at most into their seven hundreds--without them then late six hundreds is the upper limit. That Alivia looks late forties, early fifties is not an indication that (like some centurians) she could make it into her thousands, but a result of the fact that channelers do not experience the discrepencies of late old age--they remain healthy and vibrant into old age, and die looking at most late sixties/very early seventies (and a healthy vibrant late sixties/early seventies).

 

 

Though that being said, there is a kinswoman who was born not later than five hundred years after Hawkwing. She could have met women who lived in his time.

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The three Oaths at that period. Reanne is born in 598 according to Encyclopaedia-wot. So if a sister was living while Hawkwing was, I doubt she was alive when Reanne was born. But it could be possible with the Wise One that is mentioned, a legend like Cadsuane is among Wetlanders. She was very old, really strong in the OP, and powerful IIRC. She could have met a sister living while Hawkwing's Empire (if she crossed the Dragonwall)

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She doesn't look younger than Cadsuane as Cadsuane is ageless and cannot have an age ascribed to her. Alivia looks in her late forties, early fifties--which is accurate for a channeler of her strength in her fourth century. That has nothing to do with the Oath Rod.

 

It's quite astonishing when you consider that due to the extended lifetime, it's possible, if by a long shot, that an Aes Sedai could have seen both the end of the Breaking and the beginning of the Trolloc Wars. At least, if not for the Oath Rod...

 

Remembering Hawkwing's face just isn't as impressive as it used to be.

 

-- dwn

 

 

No, its not possible for an Aes Sedai to have lived from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars. Channelers with the health benefits, quality of life and sung food live at most into their seven hundreds--without them then late six hundreds is the upper limit. That Alivia looks late forties, early fifties is not an indication that (like some centurians) she could make it into her thousands, but a result of the fact that channelers do not experience the discrepencies of late old age--they remain healthy and vibrant into old age, and die looking at most late sixties/very early seventies (and a healthy vibrant late sixties/early seventies).

 

 

Though that being said, there is a kinswoman who was born not later than five hundred years after Hawkwing. She could have met women who lived in his time.

 

Yet if Alivia has the physical health of early middle age at 400+ years, there isn't really any reason to expect her not to continue to age at her present rate. The two Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel, although having the ageless look, certainly showed many physical signs of extremely advanced age (translucent skin, wispy hair, general frailty). Perhaps I misjudged Alivia's description, however, and she simply looks good for a woman of "60".

 

For someone with the health of a vibrant 70 year old to die, barring illness, is a bit weird. (Granted... magic.)

 

-- dwn

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She doesn't look younger than Cadsuane as Cadsuane is ageless and cannot have an age ascribed to her. Alivia looks in her late forties, early fifties--which is accurate for a channeler of her strength in her fourth century. That has nothing to do with the Oath Rod.

 

It's quite astonishing when you consider that due to the extended lifetime, it's possible, if by a long shot, that an Aes Sedai could have seen both the end of the Breaking and the beginning of the Trolloc Wars. At least, if not for the Oath Rod...

 

Remembering Hawkwing's face just isn't as impressive as it used to be.

 

-- dwn

 

 

No, its not possible for an Aes Sedai to have lived from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars. Channelers with the health benefits, quality of life and sung food live at most into their seven hundreds--without them then late six hundreds is the upper limit. That Alivia looks late forties, early fifties is not an indication that (like some centurians) she could make it into her thousands, but a result of the fact that channelers do not experience the discrepencies of late old age--they remain healthy and vibrant into old age, and die looking at most late sixties/very early seventies (and a healthy vibrant late sixties/early seventies).

 

 

Though that being said, there is a kinswoman who was born not later than five hundred years after Hawkwing. She could have met women who lived in his time.

 

Yet if Alivia has the physical health of early middle age at 400+ years, there isn't really any reason to expect her not to continue to age at her present rate. The two Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel, although having the ageless look, certainly showed many physical signs of extremely advanced age (translucent skin, wispy hair, general frailty). Perhaps I misjudged Alivia's description, however, and she simply looks good for a woman of "60".

 

For someone with the health of a vibrant 70 year old to die, barring illness, is a bit weird. (Granted... magic.)

 

-- dwn

 

 

You're looking it the wrong way. Think of it more along the lines of someone who is one hundred retaining the health and vibrancy of a 70 year old. It doesn't mean their body is not shutting down, just that they've held together well to that point.

 

This is stated in the books--channelers do not suffer most of the infirmities of old age. The Aiel Aes Sedai, by the way, would have at most been around 300.

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You're looking it the wrong way. Think of it more along the lines of someone who is one hundred retaining the health and vibrancy of a 70 year old. It doesn't mean their body is not shutting down, just that they've held together well to that point.

 

This is stated in the books--channelers do not suffer most of the infirmities of old age. The Aiel Aes Sedai, by the way, would have at most been around 300.

 

I've just always taken Alivia to be roughly the equivalent of 45, implying that she had perhaps half her life left. Channellers do show visible signs of age, even if they tend to remain active and healthy, and Alivia is described as having a few wrinkles around her eyes and a few streaks of white in her hair. That would be in line for a healthy person (very healthy in a pre-industrial society) just entering middle-age, perhaps the equivalent of 40 or 50 years old. Given the age limits you quoted, Alivia is effectively closer to 60.

 

-- dwn

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agelessness cant have anything to do with the oath rod. Verin we learn in tGS is black. And that swearing to the DO nullifies the 3 oaths. She was no longer bound by them. She had the ageless look and was along with cadsuane was one of the oldest living aes sedia. Verin had been a black sister a very long time but maintained her agelessness.

 

Additionally, Verin is not amongst the oldest of Aes Sedai--she is between 113 and 146 years of age, as per Merana's comments in LoC.

 

Verin's hair is solidly gray, is there another sister that's under 200 for whom that is so?

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Additionally, Verin is not amongst the oldest of Aes Sedai--she is between 113 and 146 years of age, as per Merana's comments in LoC.

 

Verin's hair is solidly gray, is there another sister that's under 200 for whom that is so?

 

Actually Verin has only a touch of grey in her dark hair.

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<br />
<br />She doesn't look younger than Cadsuane as Cadsuane is ageless and cannot have an age ascribed to her. Alivia looks in her late forties, early fifties--which is accurate for a channeler of her strength in her fourth century. That has nothing to do with the Oath Rod.<br />
<br /><br />It's quite astonishing when you consider that due to the extended lifetime, it's possible, if by a long shot, that an Aes Sedai could have seen both the end of the Breaking and the beginning of the Trolloc Wars.  At least, if not for the Oath Rod...<br /><br />Remembering Hawkwing's face just isn't as impressive as it used to be.<br /><br />-- dwn<br />
<br /><br /><br />
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