Perrin's PoV

[Cairodin]

The whole Perrin thing is like if Mat got his answers from the Aelfinn and ran the other way, not toward Rhuidean. Mat complains but still does what is necessary, who knows how many people have died because perrin won't accept his abilities.

The figurines to me represented the opposite of what Faile told perrin. Her father said a general must care for the living, but perrin still cares for the dead too much.

 

I'm biased, Perrin's been one of my favorites since starting WoT, so I don't really get sentiments like these (I don't really wanna single you out DFO, I'm just quoting a relevant passage). I can't really name an instance where people have died because of Perrin's refusal to use the wolves. They've been there at all of his important battles. He's reluctant to use them as a resource because: A) he's been shut out by the wolves after battles before, re: Dumai's Wells; B) he's afraid to become dependent upon an ability he doesn't fully understand, that may potentially eat his human mind. This latter reason is definitely something that he's needed to make progress on, and I think it's a legitimate concern about Perrin until now. Now we've seen in TGS that he's made the choice to figure it out. This prologue only cements that he's going to make progress with it. Look at the questions he's asking, and look at how Hopper responds. Maybe I'm making a leap of faith, but I think it shows that Perrin's actually going to be learning a lot about himself and about "things of wolves" in this book. So frustration with his PoV in the prologue seems a bit more like a reaction to people's expectations of a Perrin PoV, rather than a fair assessment of the content itself.

 

Another thing is I don't get is how the haters can call Perrin irresponsible. I've seen this a lot, and I suppose it's not for no reason. Perrin's been quoted several times saying how nothing else matters but Faile, and that the world can burn as long as she's safe. Despite that, we see through his actions that he is extremely considerate of more than just his personal needs during the arc where she's captured. The point's been made before, but Perrin did take care of his soldiers while he was searching for Faile. Even when he had to fight to get her back, his own forces and those of his allies took the fewest casualties due to a remarkable plan. The point is, Perrin's actions speak louder than his words, just as Mat's do. We know Mat isn't a coward, despite his mental commentary. We know Perrin cares for the living, his followers, despite his mental commentary that only one really matters.

 

One final thing about that last arc of Perrin's. Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that if it had been Berelain who'd been captured in place of Faile, he's still have rescued her. In fact, I bet Perrin would have gone about the whole thing in much the same way, if a little less frenzied about it. Perrin cares about people. Hell, even if only Alliandre had been captured, Perrin would have been duty-bound to rescue her. That'ss why he's thinking about Aram in his dreams (he didn't really get a chance to in TGS).

 

Uh... so yeah. Doubt I've changed any minds here, honestly. Perrin is who he is, the emo of the group. He's been this way from the beginning, since he chose to stay in bed after the nightmares started in tEotW. I have some high hopes that Perrin's real problems are resolved in this novel, and I'm really excited. I feel like Perrin's the character with the most mysterious future, right now. We know what Mat will be doing in ToM, but we don't really have a clear idea of what Perrin's role will be yet.

 

Anyway, just wanted to defend the man a bit. Hope it all flows together well and makes sense. I also hope I didn't piss anyone off, haha! I think the hate's worse over at Theoryland right now, actually, but I don't have an account over there. Thanks for hearing me out, guys; can't wait until ToM drops.

[nyquil99]

The figurines to me represented the opposite of what Faile told perrin. Her father said a general must care for the living, but perrin still cares for the dead too much.

 

The only figurine that was dead was Aram, the others are still alive and with him. I think that part of the dream sequence has to do with his "Questions of Leadership" and that the Two River folks are only half molded. Maybe he needs to forge them into an army instead of a bunch of farmers with bows.

[The Fisher King]

The whole Perrin thing is like if Mat got his answers from the Aelfinn and ran the other way, not toward Rhuidean. Mat complains but still does what is necessary, who knows how many people have died because perrin won't accept his abilities.

The figurines to me represented the opposite of what Faile told perrin. Her father said a general must care for the living, but perrin still cares for the dead too much.

 

I'm biased, Perrin's been one of my favorites since starting WoT, so I don't really get sentiments like these (I don't really wanna single you out DFO, I'm just quoting a relevant passage). I can't really name an instance where people have died because of Perrin's refusal to use the wolves. They've been there at all of his important battles. He's reluctant to use them as a resource because: A) he's been shut out by the wolves after battles before, re: Dumai's Wells; B) he's afraid to become dependent upon an ability he doesn't fully understand, that may potentially eat his human mind. This latter reason is definitely something that he's needed to make progress on, and I think it's a legitimate concern about Perrin until now. Now we've seen in TGS that he's made the choice to figure it out. This prologue only cements that he's going to make progress with it. Look at the questions he's asking, and look at how Hopper responds. Maybe I'm making a leap of faith, but I think it shows that Perrin's actually going to be learning a lot about himself and about "things of wolves" in this book. So frustration with his PoV in the prologue seems a bit more like a reaction to people's expectations of a Perrin PoV, rather than a fair assessment of the content itself.

 

Another thing is I don't get is how the haters can call Perrin irresponsible. I've seen this a lot, and I suppose it's not for no reason. Perrin's been quoted several times saying how nothing else matters but Faile, and that the world can burn as long as she's safe. Despite that, we see through his actions that he is extremely considerate of more than just his personal needs during the arc where she's captured. The point's been made before, but Perrin did take care of his soldiers while he was searching for Faile. Even when he had to fight to get her back, his own forces and those of his allies took the fewest casualties due to a remarkable plan. The point is, Perrin's actions speak louder than his words, just as Mat's do. We know Mat isn't a coward, despite his mental commentary. We know Perrin cares for the living, his followers, despite his mental commentary that only one really matters.

 

One final thing about that last arc of Perrin's. Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that if it had been Berelain who'd been captured in place of Faile, he's still have rescued her. In fact, I bet Perrin would have gone about the whole thing in much the same way, if a little less frenzied about it. Perrin cares about people. Hell, even if only Alliandre had been captured, Perrin would have been duty-bound to rescue her. That'ss why he's thinking about Aram in his dreams (he didn't really get a chance to in TGS).

 

Uh... so yeah. Doubt I've changed any minds here, honestly. Perrin is who he is, the emo of the group. He's been this way from the beginning, since he chose to stay in bed after the nightmares started in tEotW. I have some high hopes that Perrin's real problems are resolved in this novel, and I'm really excited. I feel like Perrin's the character with the most mysterious future, right now. We know what Mat will be doing in ToM, but we don't really have a clear idea of what Perrin's role will be yet.

 

Anyway, just wanted to defend the man a bit. Hope it all flows together well and makes sense. I also hope I didn't piss anyone off, haha! I think the hate's worse over at Theoryland right now, actually, but I don't have an account over there. Thanks for hearing me out, guys; can't wait until ToM drops.

 

Wow. I have alot to say.

 

Most of this is meant to address Cairodin's awesome post and those using EOTW and Dumai's Wells, COT as Non-Shadow Rising examples of forward character progression for Perrin.

 

To those who have compared Mat's reactions to the responsibilities forced on him by the Pattern and his Ta'veren nature with the reactions of Perrin, well, I think its a very interesting and telling point to bring up.

 

It's also why Mat has progressed as a character development study far, far more than Perrin at this point.

 

I think it has been pointed out by MANY over the years that one of the MOST wonderful ironies of Mat's wonderfully ironic character is that he has by far the MOST success when he STOPS running and confronts his obstacles head on. Another hysterical facet of Mat's personality is that even after these successes he rarely realizes that the very reason he DID succeed was because he stopped running and confronted the problem...and he immediately swears to NEVER put himself in THAT position again - until the next time it happens and he gets all Bad-A$$ again, lol.

 

Perrin ''Manned-Up'' at Dumai's Wells but this was (again excepting Book 4, which is only 1 book out of 13 to date) a single event, not a trend or pattern for him.

 

He also chose to do one fairly stern thing in COT (the CHOP-CHOP of that Aielmen's feet). Again, those, this was a rare and isolated instance for Perrin - mostly motivated by his selfish and borderline obsessive desire to reunite with Faile.

 

Evrything about Perrin is ''How can I end up in a position to NOT do such and such'' where as Mat and Rand both consistently do nasty, hard things - the result of proactively making hard choices - as opposed to seeking to NOT have to make those choices...which is Perrin's consistent preference.

 

Perrin is NOT Mat or Rand.

 

 

 

Fish

[seasnake]

I can think of one more, the Dragon Reborn when he chooses to enter the Wolf Dream to rescue Faile and becomes a Wolf there, the first time and only time he's really embraced it.

 

Perrin's story stalled for 2 books in my opinion, Books 8 and 9. And let's face it, who's story DIDN'T stall in Book 8. tPoD is a hard read, it's lots of baths and bargains with Sea Folk, no Mat, Rand sitting around in Cairhien reading books, Egwene is politicking with Sitters, etc. WH things get better for most of them but Perrin's story is mired in his dealing with servants and Berelain and Elayne is just starting her house war.

 

Perrin's doing alright in my opinion, but I think ToM is going to be his big moment.

[Kaznen]

Rand can put on a pair of gloves, Mat has his scarf, but Randland hasn't invented sunglasses. And his eyes are so unnatural, he can't hide from it. Of the three is is the most resigned he doesn't run from his duty, but the trudges under the load. Even Rand doesn't feel as weighed down. His ta'veren markings could be passed off as tattoos.

[csarmi]

I have a hard question for everybody (and, keep in mind that I *Like* Perrin):

 

OUTSIDE of The Shadow Rising, is there even ONE book (out of THIRTEEN) where you can say honestly that Perrin has progressed FORWARD in terms of character development?

 

Fish

 

Yes. I'll list those book for you.

 

The Eye of the World

The Great Hunt

The Dragon Reborn

The Shadow Rising

Lord of Chaos

A Crown of Swords

The Path of Daggers

Winter's Heart

Crossroads of Twilight

Knife of Dreams

The Gathering Storm

Towers of Midnight

[sdelu]

I really don't know WHY he's so obsessed over Faile. It's kind of pathetic, really, that his every thought and action has revolved around her for, what, 2 years in randland time so far? Ever since he first met her it's been "Faile smells happy" or "oh no, she smells angry!" or "oh my Faile, I don't understand you!"

 

I mean, I can't be the only one who would have picked Berelain over her, can I? Not only has Berelain proven (generally speaking) more useful, she's also smokin' hot. I never got the impression that Faile was pretty to anyone save Perrin, and she's such a... ah... "non-nice individual."

 

You know, this is all really Moiraine's fault. She should have never let Faile follow them.

 

 

Also, @ csarmi... you and I must have read different books with the same titles, because Perrin has been stagnant since 4/5 in terms of his wolf-brotherness. The only way he's progressed outside of that is in his obsessiveness over his wife.

 

He still hasn't even convinced her he likes her more than Berelain! Now people think he nailed Berelain while Faile was kidnapped.

 

That's what he SHOULD have done. He should have thanked the Shaido from the bottom of his heart.

[The Fisher King]

I really don't know WHY he's so obsessed over Faile. It's kind of pathetic, really, that his every thought and action has revolved around her for, what, 2 years in randland time so far? Ever since he first met her it's been "Faile smells happy" or "oh no, she smells angry!" or "oh my Faile, I don't understand you!"

 

I mean, I can't be the only one who would have picked Berelain over her, can I? Not only has Berelain proven (generally speaking) more useful, she's also smokin' hot. I never got the impression that Faile was pretty to anyone save Perrin, and she's such a... ah... "non-nice individual."

 

You know, this is all really Moiraine's fault. She should have never let Faile follow them.

 

 

Also, @ csarmi... you and I must have read different books with the same titles, because Perrin has been stagnant since 4/5 in terms of his wolf-brotherness. The only way he's progressed outside of that is in his obsessiveness over his wife.

 

He still hasn't even convinced her he likes her more than Berelain! Now people think he nailed Berelain while Faile was kidnapped.

 

That's what he SHOULD have done. He should have thanked the Shaido from the bottom of his heart.

 

Wow. How often is it we get to say that we agree with EVERY SINGLE WORD of someone else's post??? ... Well, I get to now.

 

 

Fish

[csarmi]

I really don't know WHY he's so obsessed over Faile. It's kind of pathetic, really, that his every thought and action has revolved around her for, what, 2 years in randland time so far? Ever since he first met her it's been "Faile smells happy" or "oh no, she smells angry!" or "oh my Faile, I don't understand you!"

 

Have you ever been in love?

[grolm]

After TSR, Perrin was number one on my favorite character list, but since he staged the fight with Rand in COS he's been junky. If Brandon says Perrin resolves issues and shows importance as the world approaches ending, I have to believe him, but if RJ had never written another Perrin POV after Dumai Wells the books would have been nicely shortened of meaningless scenes. His POV is often one I just skim now.

 

A good boy ruined by a spoiled noble's daughter.

[csarmi]

A good boy ruined by a spoiled noble's daughter.

 

Said noble's daughter does not seem so spoiled to me at all.

As for ruining him: he helped him learn a lot about leadership (which he needs desperately) and helped him face a lot of various problems. Provided him comfort and stability. Home.

That don't sound like ruining for me.

[Deadsy]

A good boy ruined by a spoiled noble's daughter.

 

Said noble's daughter does not seem so spoiled to me at all.

As for ruining him: he helped him learn a lot about leadership (which he needs desperately) and helped him face a lot of various problems. Provided him comfort and stability. Home.

That don't sound like ruining for me.

 

*Concurs*

[Duskfire]

I have no problem with Faile and Perrins dedication to her. If my wife got captured and I was capable of getting her out I would do everything in my power to do so. And as someone pointed out, Perrin probably would have done the same for any friend. He went out of his way to help the Cauthons and so forth when they were captured by the Whitecloaks. So Faile isnt the cause of the problem at all - if anything, she has helped him come to terms with leadership and the hard choices he has to make.

 

My problem with Perrin is he is still dwelling on the same issues he was dwelling on since basically the first book, and to me thats just not good for a character to do so. The whole wolf subplot should have been taken care of ages ago. And I would feel the exact same way if Mat was still running from his fate. Characters need to develop, they need to master their internal conflict, and both Mat and Rand have done that to some extent. Perrin has not, and technically speaking, he has internal confict much longer then the other two (He found out he was a wolfbrother long before Rand knew he could even channel.) And yet, here we are 12 books later, and Perrin is still facing the same internal conflict, while the other two have mastered their problems. Thats not to say they are anymore more mature then Perrin. But rereading through the series now, and there seems to be no growth to Perrin beyoind gaining some leadership. Rand is completely different, and Mat has matured greatly.

[Luckers]

To be honest I need to re-read Perrin's section of the prologue. But I'm interested to see Faile in this book--she says in KoD that she never really understood what it was to be a noblewoman until being a hostage, so I'm wondering if we won't see some growth and change in her.

[perrin51]

One of the things that I and I'm sure most of you love about this series is the detail and believability of the characters. This being said, I find it humorous that people complain about characters being flawed. I know, based on an individual readers taste, that some parts of this series are dry and hard to read. (I have a hard time reading the whole Tanchico episode, not mention most of Elayne’s arc.)

 

People read this series and see a traditional hero like Rand and can easily identify with him and see where he fits in the story. They see Mat, the charming rascal and can indentify with him and see where he fits. Perrin is a somewhat different story. People see his cool ability and his prowess in battle and want him to be a hero and leader like Rand. I think that this is where a lot of people do Perrin an injustice.

 

Both Mat and Rand have a natural flare, charisma or however you want to say it. Both though reluctant to assume the mantel of hero, have developed and grown into it. Perrin from the first that we meet him has always been self effacing. From TEotW he moves with care through crowds and thinks things through before speaking as not to hurt anyone. He has always been the most deliberate and least ambitious of the three.

 

He has some of the best attributes that are spread through the other characters in the series. He is brave like Rand and many others. He is a good tactician like Mat and learns quickly. He does what is right with regard for the cost like Galad. He cares for his people like Elayne. There are many others.

 

His one main detractor is his reluctance to face his fate. This I think is what makes him human and believable. How many people can you think of, that have fame and celebrity thrust upon them and remain who they were before? This very reluctance allowed him alone of the three, to go back to the Two Rivers. This humility and yearning for a normal life is what makes him into a great leader of men in the darkest times. He is genuine and solid and loves with every fiber of his being. Yes he loves Faile, but he loves his friends nearly as much. Look at what he did for Hopper, mere days after meeting him and gaining his abilities. This is what all of those following him see. This is also the main source of his conflict with the wolf in him.

[Cairodin]

That was an awesome post, perrin51. Made me smile.

 

Anyway, to actually discuss the prologue, my first thought on seeing him at the forge and needing to build something important was that it wasn't a metaphor. I thought he actually needed to make something that would be pivotal to the Last Battle. This is mostly due to the Perrin myth parallels article on 13th Depository, which showed the smith Ilmarinen who makes an important artifact. From the article:

 

"Once there, Ilmarinen set up a great forge of magic fire and began his great work with the aid of the slaves of Pohjola. He made a few attempts to create something marvellous, but each time the resulting artefact was flawed, being evil and eager to kill or ill-tempered or destructive and he destroyed it and tried again. His first attempt was a blood-thirsty cross-bow, his second a battle-hungry ship, the third an ill-tempered cow, and the fourth a destructive plough. Finally the Sampo was born, a mill of plenty or prosperity that produces grain, salt and gold which he gave to Louhi who locked it away deep underground."

 

Now, I'm pretty sure that this could just as likely be a metaphorical forge Perrin's working at. It's probably more likely, actually, since I don't know any prophecy or viewing offhand that implies Perrin needs to make any physical object. Maybe he will help with Aludra's dragons, though.

 

Does anyone else think that the things Perrin was working on at first are separate from the figurines he pulled out of the barrels? That was my impression initially, but I really can't say.

[b3arz3rg3r]

It had everything I've always disliked about Perrin, he's still stuck in the Emondsfield mentality and still whining about the same responsibilities he had for more than half the series, so I'd say Brandon really nailed the character.

[perrin51]

That was an awesome post, perrin51. Made me smile.

 

Does anyone else think that the things Perrin was working on at first are separate from the figurines he pulled out of the barrels? That was my impression initially, but I really can't say.

 

Thanks. Same to you.

 

Yes, this was reminiscent of his Wolf Dream visions. It could also be someone messing with him in TAR.

[Impressive Bosom]

Perrin - rejects violence completely to stay sane and becomes the first of the 'new' old Aiel, possibly gathering up the Tinkers in the process?

 

Just a random musing. It would be a role only he would be suited to play and would make a lot of his inner conflict in the past seem justifiable as character development towards that decision. Then again, I've always liked the theory that his complete devotion to Faile might make him an Annikin Skywalker type of character who turns to the dark side after losing that which he held most dear - of course, for that to happen, Faile would have to be killed in some grisly manner and in a way that would allow for him to blame someone other than the DO. As often as people joke about wanting that very thing to happen, you can't tell me it wouldn't have a huge emotional impact on the reader, knowing Perrin as we've come to.

[Naffy]

I always laugh when Perrin supporters use the old "he does what a normal person in love would do" and "He is a believable character." That is not the problem with Perrin. The problem is, his storyline is BORING. I live a normal person's life, which is why no one would want to read a book about me. Perrin is very realistic. So realistic, in fact, that he is mundane. Since book 6, his storyline has been a giant yawner. You can't argue that. This is The Wheel of Time for cripes sake, not some dry Victorian novel. Perrin better improve or he will be a giant stain on this great epic fantasy.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I always laugh when Perrin supporters use the old "he does what a normal person in love would do" and "He is a believable character." That is not the problem with Perrin. The problem is, his storyline is BORING. I live a normal person's life, which is why no one would want to read a book about me. Perrin is very realistic. So realistic, in fact, that he is mundane. Since book 6, his storyline has been a giant yawner. You can't argue that. This is The Wheel of Time for cripes sake, not some dry Victorian novel. Perrin better improve or he will be a giant stain on this great epic fantasy.

 

You are too harsh. I agree that his storyline is rather boring, but so was in parts Mat's endless escape from Ebou Dar. However, Perrin's problem isn't that he's too normal. In fact as an adolescent and now in my twenties I've always found Mat far more normal. For me Perrin's problem is that he's too serious and too slow. He just is too static there's been no progress for him as a character since he married Faile in like book 4.

[jemron]

@perrin51 - Thanks to your post, I like Perrin that much more now. Thank you!

[MoonBeams]

I think a lot of people find Perrin boring because his character does not have a lot of issues or hang-ups -- he is solid. Moiraine compared Perrin to a Warder when it comes to duty. Once Perrin accepts who he is (part wolf) he will be that much stronger as a character. Things I did note in the prologue was:

1) "He was dreaming, though he wasn't in the wolf dream" -- was he in that place Rand always meets Ishamael/Moridin??

2) "Perrin picked up the length of glowing iron with his tongs. The air warped around it" -- what is that about?

3) How did Hopper know that Aram challenged Perrin and Perrin killed him? Hopper is in the World of Dreams, how would he know what happened in the real world?

 

Perrin's dream reminds me of when Moghedian tried to trap Egwene in the World of Dreams. Question is... who tried to trap Perrin?

[perrin51]

@perrin51 - Thanks to your post, I like Perrin that much more now. Thank you!

Your welcome.

[seasnake]

I always laugh when Perrin supporters use the old "he does what a normal person in love would do" and "He is a believable character." That is not the problem with Perrin. The problem is, his storyline is BORING. I live a normal person's life, which is why no one would want to read a book about me. Perrin is very realistic. So realistic, in fact, that he is mundane. Since book 6, his storyline has been a giant yawner. You can't argue that. This is The Wheel of Time for cripes sake, not some dry Victorian novel. Perrin better improve or he will be a giant stain on this great epic fantasy.

 

yeah, a boring ordinary guy that cuts the hands off of captives and destroys enemy armies?

 

CoT and KoD were Perrin doing well for himself.

 

CoS was great too, he was standing up to Rand even as Rand was going more nuts and ending the Prophet's work in Murandy.

 

PoD is slow for everyone, I think. WH the Perrin Chapters do drag, it's all wandering around frustrated and Berelain politicking.