The Bodyswap Theory

[mb]

The two of them do share a bond, but I am not sure about either being part of the other.

 

I do not see what the Dream of the masks has to do with Rand's death.

Dream of a man dying, that could be almost anyone.

Dream with Logain, it could be an impostor.

The Foretelling could point to Lews Therin in Rand's body.

Boat & scale Dream, that could indicate almost any kind of event. Scale implies some kind of choice; the choice would affect Rand & the 3.

 

 

Rand having an actual death then somehow becoming resurrected, that to me can fit.

The prophecies to me tell of Rand's death in Rand's body; not of Rand swapping bodies with anyone then either dying.

[BareUpperLip79]

I'm rejecting your conclusion that Rand must actually die Luckers. Not because I particularly want him to live; just because the Body Swap theory seems too contrived for my liking. Ever since Egwene's Paper Puppet dream I've favoured a Rand-fakes-his-own-death scenario. This requires my accepting that (1) Nicola's foretelling, (2) the Aelfinn answer, and (3) Min's wording of her Alivia viewing, all mean "fake your own death" when they say "die". And I can accept those things. (On the basis that Min's wording "just comes to her" and is therefore liable to be as cryptic as we know foretellings to be)

 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" is ambiguous enough that he could just bleed a bit and not die there.

 

 

So what I think when I see those 7 'prophecies':

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

 

The Prophecies of Rand's Death

 

1. EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

I think this is the strongest evidence for the -Rand fakes his own death- theory. It's what made me think along these lines in the first place.

A paper puppet indicates (to me) that Rand on the funeral bier isn't real. It's a fake Rand.

Of course I'm no better at interpreting dreams than Eggy is, but it seems clear to me. Viewing all the other prophecies in the light of this dream makes it much easier to envisage a fake death.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

 

2. EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

There's no indication that this is Rand, but even if it is: The dream says he's dying (not dead) yet the people outside seem to think he is dead (because they're building a pyre). This could mean the people outside have been deceived which indirectly supports a -Rand fakes his own death- theory. To me anyway.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

Why the assumption that this has anything to do with Rand's death? My amateur dream interpreting says that this is about Rand losing his innocent farmer-boy personality in Daes Dae'mar.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

 

4. MIN VIEWING: three women standing over a funeral bier with [Rand] on it. [tEotW]

 

The viewing doesn't say that he's dead. Just that he's on a funeral bier. Which could be indicating how the death faking is to happen.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

 

5. MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

see below.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

 

6.1 NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255] [Which we know is Rand because of the next point.]

It could be literal, requiring a complicated body swap OR she could be saying: "and he who is [generally thought of as being] dead yet lives. It's a simpler solution and we know that prophecy is very rarely (if ever) clearly worded.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

6.2 WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. [LOC: 19, Matters of Toh, 312]

 

Nothing to say Rand is actually dead here.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

7.1 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

7.2 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

Here and 5 is where it's probably hardest to swallow the 'Prophecies are cryptic', but I would argue that Aelfinn answers are not exactly clearly worded:

 

- "Give up half the light of the world to save the world"?

 

What's that about? Why not "Give up one eye to save the world"?

 

- "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

 

Mat's balefire ressurection and his memories? Not exactly clear. Why spoken in that order?

 

- "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

It's not only the last part of this which is unclear.. the whole thing is. "The two must be as one" COULD be referring to Rand and Moridin, or it COULD be referring to Rand-controlled and Seanchan-controlled areas or it COULD be something else entirely.

 

Aelfinn answers are poetic, cryptic and unclear.

 

 

 

5 Which brings me back to "You said she was going to help me die... Those were your words."

 

The importance Rand (and the author) places on the semantic difference here indicates that there is something to it. Something more to it, i should say than the difference between (1) Alivia's action ending Rand's life, and (2) Alivia's action assisting Rand to end his own life. In both of those cases Rand is dead (not insurmountable by body-swap theories or Nynaeve-heals-death theories). But Rand looks at Alivia with hope in his eyes, indicating that he has linked her Min-viewing with his Aelfinn answer.

 

I think given the 'paper puppet' dream, we can plausibly imagine Alivia assisting Rand to fake his death. It means that the 'wording' which came with Min's viewing is similarly cryptic to foretellings and Aelfinn answers.

 

 

 

Conclusion

In summary, Egwene's paper puppet dream indicates a fake death. Nicola's foretelling could be taken to support that ("yet lives"). The Aelfinn answer could be taken to support that. And Min's Alivia viewing could be taken to support that (She helps him fake his death).

This theory requires accepting that the Aelfinn answers, Nicola's foretelling, and the wording which came with Min's Alivia viewing are all quite cryptic. Cryptic enough that "fake your death" can become "die". And I can personally accept that. If there's anything we know about prophecy, (especially The Karantheon Cycle) it's that it is cryptic as the Pit of Doom and very difficult to correctly interpret. Similarly, Aelfinn answers are very poetic and cryptic. If I were an Aelfinn who wanted to say "In order to survive you must fake your own death" then it would probably come out: "If you would live, you must die."

 

 

But what about the Moridin link?

 

I think it will play a very important role in resealing the Bore and winning the Last Battle, but I don't think it will be by swapping bodies. I'm basing this on my belief that the Body Swap theory is too far-fetched to be true.

 

Cheers,

 

-M

[Ashandarei]

From there I would bring up the saidin factor. Whilst the link seems to have a certain passive element--with thoughts sliding through unasked--there is also a state to it which can specifically be activated by either Rand or Moridin seizing or releasing saidin. And it is just saidin--which is curious, one would think for Moridin it would be the True Power given that's what he was channeling, but it isn't--Demandred notes that Moridin after three thousand years of using both saidin and the TP has suddenly given up using saidin altogether--ergo, it is saidin which is causing the nausea in him. I wrote a full thread on my thoughts about why its saidin, and why they're experiencing nausea which can be found here if anyone is interested http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47417.0.html

 

I tried accessing the link but it just takes you to a messed up webpage with broken/unloaded images and links on the side saying:

"Welcome, Productions, About Us, Help Us out, Casting, Links, Contact Us, Intranet, Argonaut E-Mail."

 

Can I get a functional link please? Thanks! Am very interested to read your saidin theory.

[Sundance Kid]

I would believe that Lews Therin dies but Rand lives on.

 

That fits with Nicolas foretelling "he who is dead yet lives", and the Aelfinn answer "If you would live, you must die". Maybe Alivia will help LTT die?

 

One should also be aware that Egwenes dreaming does not tell the future, only a possible future.

[Gentled Ben]

Luckers, would you just pin this, please? I keep having to use the search function to find it when trying to use it as a reference in discussions with people on other sites, like the online games I play, etc. You know I'm lazy...

[Luckers]

Luckers, would you just pin this, please? I keep having to use the search function to find it when trying to use it as a reference in discussions with people on other sites, like the online games I play, etc. You know I'm lazy...

 

All of my theories are listed in the pinned theory database thread at the top of the board.

[Gentled Ben]

That's handy enough--thanks!

[Elan Tedronai]

moridin and rand will merge into one and one of them will die a permanent death. And that my friends is moridin's fate

 

 

two, everyone will think rand has died but rand will quietly exit the scene when all things are done and dusted.

 

 

the backlash from the dark one this time won't be on saidin but on an unsupecting moridin who take the brunt of the blow. shaitan will think he's taking his anger on rand when infact it will be poor moridin at the end of it

[herid]

It just occurred to me that Min's last viewing about Rand seems to contradict the bodyswap theory.

 

"Rand, I see sunlight around you." He looked up at her, then glanced at the sky. "Not that sunlight," Min whispered. "A viewing. I see dark clouds,

pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness. I see trees, growing green again, bearing fruit. I see a field, the crops healthy and full." She hesitated. "I see the Two Rivers, Rand. I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on its door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

-ToM, Ch 25

This viewing would seem to describe the final moments of the LB given the references to sunlight around Rand and things growing. Presumably, if Rand was not in his own body in that viewing Min would notice it.

[Terez]

Why can't it be Shaidar Haran, or a metaphorical representation of Rand vs the Dark One? It is faceless, after all.

[herid]

Why can't it be Shaidar Haran, or a metaphorical representation of Rand vs the Dark One? It is faceless, after all.

metaphorical representation of Rand? such as? and Min never speaks of any metaphorical representations. She says that she sees Rand with a sword in his hand. that's pretty clear cut. One can argue, perhaps, that the viewing speaks of a prolonged period of time (as it does seem to) so that maybe the moment with the sword is not the very end of the LB. but it's quite clear that she means Rand as Rand in it.

[Terez]

I didn't say Rand was metaphorical - just the Dark One. Since he doesn't have a body, then of course he has to be faceless, right?

[herid]

I didn't say Rand was metaphorical - just the Dark One. Since he doesn't have a body, then of course he has to be faceless, right?

actually, now that I think on it, Rand can be metaphorical too. it could simply be a metaphor for a general fight of light vs. dark. that would remove my objections of this viewing contradicting the bodyswap theory. it doesn't feel that way somehow but it's a possible interpretation.

as for the faceless darkness I really have no idea what is going on there. as you say, the DO has no body but who knows what he can do or use, especially once the bore is opened. It could be a metaphor, it could be Shaidar Haran as you suggest but it could be something else altogether. I have no theories on the subject myself.

[Terez]

Yeah. In general I'm down with objections to the body swap theory for obvious reasons, but I don't really see this as one of them. My objections are mainly this:

 

1. The mechanism is entirely speculative (whereas the mechanism of the Tel'aran'rhiod theory is thoroughly established).

 

2. Min's viewing and the foreshadowing suggest a merge rather than a swap.

 

3. It's creepy.

 

4. It's unnecessary to provide Rand with a new body so that he can live happily ever after in anonymity (which is the point of the theory).

 

5. The role of Alivia seems very awkward to me in this theory, though there are of course several ideas on what role she would play. I think Alivia fits best in an inconsequential role, but the best role for her in the body swap theory is for her to kill Rand's body (supposedly with Moridin in it, or Rand outside of it at least), but that seems to go against the implication of Min's vision, that she won't actually kill him.

 

6. I think it is a weak realization of Rand's death, if he never even makes it to the afterlife.

[PerinGoldenEyes]

I have posted on here before about my idea that Rand will die and go into TAR, how he will die i have no idea, but anyway he will die and his soul will end up in TAR.

so this can happen (EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]) (thanks to Luckers for making that easy to just copy), anyway while thats going on there will be a lot of fighting and people thinking that its all gone wrong and that the DO has won,

now there are two parts to my theory in which Nynaeve will go to TAR and rip him out of the dream like what happened to Birgitte, and Nyneave saw Moghedien do it and now she knows how it is done,

so my first one is that he will die and go to TAR and Nyneave will rip him out and when that happens Rand will return to his body, so he has died and then will live again but in his own body with all its flaws and there are people surrounding him to heal or bond him to keep him alive when this is done.

My second on again starts with him dying and Nyneave having to go and rip him out of the dream again but first they are setting up the funeral pyre as soon as he passes to destroy his body so that when Nyneave rips him out of the dream he will come back with a brand new body (un damaged), weather he would look like himself or weather he would look like LTT would be interesting and he would have all the memories of his previous lives and know what he has done wrong and possibly how to destroy the existing seals and understand what he did wrong last time to make them properly to seal the DO up for good, and again there would be people waiting for him to appear after being ripped out to heal or bond to keep him alive.

anyways let me know what you think about my idea.

:)

[Terez]

Your idea, huh? I love how when I write a FAQ page laying out all the evidence, all of a sudden there are a bunch of noobs claiming to have come up with the idea. I didn't come up with it either, but before I put all the evidence together, most people didn't bother going beyond 'Nynaeve will rip Rand out of TAR'. In fact, it was more common just to see a generic 'someone will rip him out of TAR' or a generic 'Nynaeve will Heal death'.

[OptimusPrime]

Your idea, huh? I love how when I write a FAQ page laying out all the evidence, all of a sudden there are a bunch of noobs claiming to have come up with the idea. I didn't come up with it either, but before I put all the evidence together, most people didn't bother going beyond 'Nynaeve will rip Rand out of TAR'. In fact, it was more common just to see a generic 'someone will rip him out of TAR' or a generic 'Nynaeve will Heal death'.

 

Actually Terez, talk of the Bodyswap goes back way before you came here, so you pretty much sound like one of those "noobs" you just mentioned.

 

Well, maybe not before you came, but before you started posting a lot.

[Terez]

We weren't even talking about the body swap theory, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. In any case, the body swap theory is old, and I knew of it from Theoryland before I ever started posting here.

[MauricXe]

boo to the bodyswap theory.

[Terez]

Agreed. To be clear, I'm not trying to be an ass. I did that to someone at the loony theories panel - they brought up the theory that Galad and Gawyn would use the Bloodrings to stop Rand from breaking the seals, and I'm all, that's MY theory. The woman was clearly offended (you can't see her facial expression on the video, but I saw it), but I didn't mean to be offensive.

[hazelkrs1]

Definitely a very interesting theory, and I feel it is backed up really well by the quotes you have gathered. I especially feel it satisfies the part about Aviendhas babes, and it would do a brilliant job wrapping certain things up. I really liked how someone pointed out that it could also end up involving Callandhor, and the flaw that's inherent to the weapon could be what is used to destroy both moridin in rand's body, as well as two other female forsaken possibly.

 

I did have one kind of idea about it though, no specific quotes to back me up on this however, it's really just a stab in the dark. What if it ends up being necessary to venture to another realm to defeat the DO? This definitely has foreshadowing throughout the series, I can't remember who it is but someone is describing basically a multiverse of different planes/dimensions in which the DO might already have won, or was never let out of his cage. This is the central plane so his defeat here would definitely cause ripple effects in the other realms, but maybe Rand realizes that to TRULY defeat the DO, not just in this realm, not just this turning of the wheel, but for ALL TIME he must venture outside their world. It could be a trip to TAR, whether by death (which doesn't seem likely, even though he's a HotH he really doesn't need to die to visit TAR) or with the help of other dreamwalkers. It might be into a different realm though, but the only other ones I can think of would be perhaps the world accessed by portal stones, which I don't think likely because I dont really see any true signifigance to those worlds and they're not foreshadowed that much, or possibly some kind of ethereal Cosmic realm that hasn't ever been introduced, this is even more unlikely. If this is the case, it could possibly be a way that would lead to Nynaeve needing to resurrect his body because it becomes too difficult for Rand's spirit to return somehow.

 

One other thought on the body swap thing which make it might not so far fetched as people might think, and one way it could be done easier for narrative purposes, is that there wouldn't be a body swap long before Rand and Moridin's battle, but instead it would be set up that Rand confronts Moridin with Callandhor in hand and holding as much power as he can hold without burning out, and Moridin, knowing he's in deep crap, unleashes a stream of balefire. Rand, knowing what comes next, releases his own massive stream of balefire, feeding even more energy into Callandhor than before. As the beams of balefire meet this second time, instantaneously Rand and Moridin switch bodies and at the same time, Moridin's soul burns out from holding entirely too much Saidin because the link Rand had with his two female channelers will have been removed. In fact, Moridin might end up being annhilated, instead of just burnt out. It would be quick and amazing, and Rand still honestly might be completely different after that; it might effect him as well in some way.

[Miseo]

It makes a lot of sense. It seems to tie up most if not all of the loose ends. I hope it isn't as plain as you explained, but it makes sense.

[hazelkrs1]

It makes a lot of sense. It seems to tie up most if not all of the loose ends. I hope it isn't as plain as you explained, but it makes sense.

 

I'm sure it won't be quite that plain, it would be too convenient for Rand to meet Moridin in this fashion without other crucial stuff going on at the same time. Even when I had an idea in the past how Rand might defeat a certain forsaken in general, once I read it even if I was right I was always missing some part of the puzzle that would change things greatly. Plus, assuming Rand would be able to confront Moridin while hes linked with two other powerful female channelers, plus Callandhor, I don't quite see why he wouldn't just blow him away, instead of doing the body swap thing. I mean, I guess to fulfill prophecy, that could work... or maybe so he would be in a different body so he could go incognito more often... I dunno this just seems almost too good a fit.

 

Another possibility I thought of is that because the wielder of Callandhor would be able to be controlled by the two female channelers he's linked to, then a body swap could happen, but the link stay in place instead. In that scenario, Nynaeve and whoever else is linked to Rand would then be able to control Moridin, and perhaps controlling the Nae'blis would somehow have something to do with fighting the Great Lord of the Dark (I've been converted recently, no worries it's all so I can find out more about the dark prophesies and thus bolster all of my own awesome theories). Perhaps Rand would then go into super-saiyan mode and follow the black thread back to the DO, or maybe they surge so much incredible amounts of power through Callandhor, through Moridin, and then through the DO that it somehow hurts or destroys him, I dunno.

[yoniy0]

I can't remember who it is but someone is describing basically a multiverse of different planes/dimensions in which the DO might already have won, or was never let out of his cage.

I think you got it backwards. It was Verin, TDR, when she gives Egwene the Dream ter'angreal, but what she actually said was that the DO is a constant in all (mirror) worlds, either Sealed or free in all of them.

[Ferdawoon]

6.1 NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255] [Which we know is Rand because of the next point.]

 

6.2 WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. [LOC: 19, Matters of Toh, 312]

 

I dont see how 6.2 mean that Rand in 6.1 is the one to live and die. In 6.1, I'm more thinking it to be the three Ta'veren, where matt have died and lived again 2 times. Once from the 'finns when he got his memories and all that and almost got hanged (I always though he died but rand did some CPR using the one power and brought him back) as well as Matt and Aviendha both dying during a lightningstorm(?) when Rand is facing Rhavin (or at least I think it is Rhavin), and after Balefiring his sorry ass they both come back to life.

 

If you do not think that is it, then Rand HAVE lived, died and now live again. He is LTT reborn. The dragon reborn. Kinda implied in the name that he have lived and died and now live again :o

 

 

The only thing that doesn't really seem to fit (Or even be necessary) is Alivia's involvement IMO. Why should she specifically be the one to kill Morridin in Rands body if indeed the body swap occurs? Why couldn't Rand just do it himself? Or Nynaeve? Or Aviendha? Or *insert just about anyone here*?

What if helping him die just means helping him with a suicide mission?

 

I think it fits with her being so old that if there is a final no return task that needs to be done by a female and Rand, that she would be the one to go. She has the strength and is old.

One of the two women linked with him in Callandor? Still no clue about the flaws of Callandor but we know the buffer to stop drawing in too much is not there. Maybe that is what will happen?