The Big Unnoticed Thing

[haloun]

i dont know if this has been discussed or not but what about compulsion? see we first see the full weave in tanchico which i believe was book four, and then in book six we see the aes sedai all kneeling to rand, and the thoughts that are surrounding that incident, at least as far as egwene is concerned is compulsion, i think also in LoC is when nynaeve admits to having been compulsed by moggy. just a thought there, but i think that is worth looking into.

[Gor]

I don't think this is a leading candidate for the BUT but what about the 2 sul'dams, the seeker, and the lady Morsa learning of Rand's identity when he chased Avi through her gateway in TFoH?

 

Could any revelations learned by the Seeker when putting Morsa to the question about what happened in Falme have had a large enough impact on the current state of Seanchan?

 

Could this Seeker (or Morsa) have possibly puzzled out that the sul'dams can channel?

 

The symbol on one of the cloaks of the sul'dam (or morsa, can't remember) was a tower with a raven in front of it. Could this represent one of the towers of midnight? Could avi's gateway have been located near the towers? It was on the Seeker's Cloak, so it must represent the tower of the ravens.

 

On the surface, this encounter seemed to have only served the purpose of reminding Rand about the Seanchan and being one of many stepping stones to him becoming Darth Rand; but could it still have significance now? I argue that it could, at least in Seanchan...but I am at a loss as to how it would impact Randland as a whole (aside from impacting the Seanchan in Randland in regards to thet sul'dam revelation - but that has a higher chance of being revealed by those already in Randland). Any thoughts, ideas?

 

 

 

Edit:

 

A second part of this, is that Rand learns of the weave for invisibility from Asmodean shortly after escaping Seanchan. Aside from possibly being used in Asmo's murder (I think it was) has it been used again in the series? I think the use of invisibility could have fairly serious ramifications that have yet to be explored. Not sure if this has been discussed at all though, probably has.

[haloun]

just an add on to my earlier thoughts, and this is what actually brought the idea to my mind, is that elza a BA member, tells semirhage that there is compulsion that needs to be removed from her mind, i think the quote is "I am instructed to tell you that there is compulsion in my mind which you need to remove" i may be wrong on this but elza is one who was thinking to herself that Rand hand to be there for the last battle or else how could the GLotD defeat him there? and then she tries to take him over with the domination band. anyways the compulsion thing with her is that everyone assumes that her compulsion is from the oath rod in the WT but if she is BA then why the need to remove the oaths the GLotD REQUIRES of his aes sedai servants? it doesnt make sense to me, the only thing that does is her fealty and servitude of Rand. which would mean he really did use compulsion, and that Egwene is right to be pissed off at him for it. which would include the amyrlins wrath, she has been pissed off about it for some time, there are other things as well, that indicate compulsion, there is the theory that Gawyn has been compulsed, not actuall proof until that one is proven, there is also my thoughts, mentioned in the spider webs on the void thread" that Verin may have compulsed Alanna, we have seen compulsion a lot throughout the entire series, and I am starting to think that Rands use of it very well cold be the BUT.

[Lisa Campbell]

just an add on to my earlier thoughts, and this is what actually brought the idea to my mind, is that elza a BA member, tells semirhage that there is compulsion that needs to be removed from her mind, i think the quote is "I am instructed to tell you that there is compulsion in my mind which you need to remove" i may be wrong on this but elza is one who was thinking to herself that Rand hand to be there for the last battle or else how could the GLotD defeat him there? and then she tries to take him over with the domination band. anyways the compulsion thing with her is that everyone assumes that her compulsion is from the oath rod in the WT but if she is BA then why the need to remove the oaths the GLotD REQUIRES of his aes sedai servants? it doesnt make sense to me, the only thing that does is her fealty and servitude of Rand. which would mean he really did use compulsion, and that Egwene is right to be pissed off at him for it. which would include the amyrlins wrath, she has been pissed off about it for some time, there are other things as well, that indicate compulsion, there is the theory that Gawyn has been compulsed, not actuall proof until that one is proven, there is also my thoughts, mentioned in the spider webs on the void thread" that Verin may have compulsed Alanna, we have seen compulsion a lot throughout the entire series, and I am starting to think that Rands use of it very well cold be the BUT.

 

 

It was Verin who compelled the Sisters the Aiel had converted into apprentices to swear to Rand. I think the first lot swore because of Taim's bullying and Rand's Taveren prescence.

 

Not sure what the BUT is. I'm still wracking my brains for something obscure that we've overlooked through the series. It has to be something obvious that we're not reading into like we do with everything else.

[Lisa Campbell]

I've just thought of something:

 

Narishma and Callandor. Rand mentioned something in the prophecy about Narishma being "he who follows" when he sent him to retrieve it from the Stone. Also Narishma told Rand that the traps woven around the sword were not as Rand had instructed and had nearly killed him. Rand was confused by this but had no time.

 

Unfortunely I have no idea where this could go but maybe I can start other wheels turning...

[Thor]

Yeah Callandor's traps were never really explained.

 

Also I still don't understand how Rand was able to point directly at Dashiva/aginor.

[Lisa Campbell]

I think Rand choosing Dashiva was a random thing. Could have been Lews Therin's influence but seeing as Elza killed him and Rand never even knew he was a FS it makes me think there's nothing in it but luck. Even Elza wrote him off as "only" being a darkfriend. IIRC Rand didn't even know the FS could migrate into second hand bodies until tGS and he/LTT still wouldn't have recognised Dashiva anyway. I think he was just picking someone who seemed a bit crazy in a harmless way so that he would seem more sane.

[Shoe326]

How much compulsion did Moghedien actually use on Nynaeve and Elayne in chapter 46 of TSR? Could this come back to haunt them or has it already?

[Val Mickey]

Very little, and Moggy's just average in Compulsion, so no worries.

[numb]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

[didymos]

I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother

 

Yeah, he tried that. Rand came back, noticed, and told him not to do that again and start sword training again. Asha'man have carried swords ever since. Taim doesn't, but the rest do.

[Sharaman]

I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother

 

Yeah, he tried that. Rand came back, noticed, and told him not to do that again and start sword training again. Asha'man have carried swords ever since. Taim doesn't, but the rest do.

I've always assumed that is Taim's last ace in the hole - he's a crypto-blademaster who pretends he's a klutz with a sword. He is Saldean Borderlander of some education, which means he would have trained with all sorts of weapons as a kid - even cobblers (Narishma) do. He doesn't carry a sword normally because then he might be asked to practice with it and people would figure out that he can use it.

[Val Mickey]

And a pretty decent general if he almost beat Bashere at Irinjavar.

[didymos]

And a pretty decent general if he almost beat Bashere at Irinjavar.

 

Well, the Power's a big help. We know Taim is pretty damn strong, so he could wreak a lot of havoc without needing to be particularly talented at generaling. Still, I think it's likely, just based off his general competence at building the BT. He runs it along military lines, and has done so all on his own, pretty much.

[Val Mickey]

Bashere had Aes Sedai, and maybe more than 13, and is too clever a general to let a lone Taim get too much of an advantage. Rodel did fairly well without any channelers, and other false Dragons have always been put down by other Generals (with Aes Sedai help, of course). Still, Taim did very well indeed.

 

Taim's also good at strategy, adapting existing methods to his advantage, and is strict on discipline, and has eyes-and-ears as a matter of course. All being requirements of a good general. The feller's impressive.

[didymos]

Bashere had Aes Sedai, and maybe more than 13, and is too clever a general to let a lone Taim get too much of an advantage.

 

Well, AS aside, I don't see what Bashere could do to counter his channeling. The AS could mitigate it somewhat by blocking certain things, but short of them shielding him or Bashere managing to kill Taim at range by surprise (Ituralde's favored method) he couldn't be stopped from causing a lot of highly unpredictable trouble. While I still agree Taim is pretty competent militarily, I also still see no reason not to attribute his success there to the OP. Or, more specifically, to not think that it was the OP which gave him the decisive edge that allowed him to be winning before Rand appeared in the sky and he fell off his horse. Basically, I'm saying if Taim couldn't channel, he'd have done reasonably well, but Bashere likely would have kicked the crap out of him in fairly short order.

[Mik]

I think the Big Unnoticed Thing might be that there appears to be neither Dusk nor Dawn in Tel'aran'rhiod.

At every instance in TAR, it's either day-time or night-time.

There are both literally and metaphorically no "Crossroads of Twilight" in TAR.

 

I doubt this is happenstance and my best educated guess is that this has to do with keeping Shai'tan at bay.

The Unseen World is a world part of -and surrounding- all other worlds.

It's the one world -literally made of "a Matter of Thought" in Time (aka Memory)- that can explain the paradox of the DO winning in one and winning in all worlds at the same time.

Becasue the Horn of Valere's function makes TAR and the real world blend (see the end of TGH - "The Grave is no Bar to my Call"), bringing (a piece of) all the worlds (TAR) and one specific world (the real world/ Randland) together as one.

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed"

What if one dawn is in the real world and the other dawn is the first dawn in TAR -where Time flows differently- since the beginning of the series?

 

I'd think it very fitting if the Prince of the Dawn would square off in a battle of will-power with Shai'tan (or it's earthly representative) in TAR, like Ba'alzamon and Rand did in TGH and that when all seems lost and all is the blackness of the Void, the Lord of the Morning wills the sun to dawn in TAR.

 

"Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword

of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time."

[crazyone]

Another crazy theory from the crazy one....

Perhaps all these so-called bubbles of evil are not all necessarily the work of the DO.

 

I am starting to believe that these bubbles, ghosts, towns disappearing, and other occurances are due to the repeated use

of BF. We have been told that BF strains the pattern. Wouldn't it be ironic if the use of BF that we have all cheered to destroy

the Forsaken can lead to the destruction of the Pattern faster than the DO ever could? Hence all the warnings and admonitions by Cads and

others for Rand to stop using it.

[Val Mickey]

Well, AS aside, I don't see what Bashere could do to counter his channeling.

 

That's why Bashere is Bashere, and you're stuck here with me. :biggrin:

So, how did Hawkwing defeat Guaire Amalasan, who had lots of conquered areas, and a much larger army than Taim (I'm assuming)?

I was just arguing for the sake of it. You've explained the very point I was aiming at.

 

 

Another crazy theory from the crazy one....

Perhaps all these so-called bubbles of evil are not all necessarily the work of the DO.

 

I am starting to believe that these bubbles, ghosts, towns disappearing, and other occurances are due to the repeated use

of BF.

 

I'm betting Lews Therin would've recognised the miasma as precisely that, then. The 3rd Agers seem to be notoriously quiet about this stuff.

You may have something there.

[OptimusPrime]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

[Moon Sedai]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

[didymos]

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

 

And do we know that Moridin doesn't know how to use a sword? He doesn't use one, true, but that needn't mean anything more than he just prefers not to.

[Mik]

I think the BUT could be something to do with Taim's reluctance/refusal to teach Asha'man how to use swords or weapons other than the Power. Rand ordered this during one of his visits to the farm (which happened during books 4-6) as a backup in case an Asha'man found himself unable to channel. Taim scoffed at the idea. I assume therefore that once Rand left, Taim didn't bother (I can't remember any mention of Rand training up the Asha'man with him either, but maybe some training has been undertaken by eg Bashere/Lan etc).

 

This could become important as a tactic to defeat the darkfriend Asha'man. I've always thought that the stedding that Perrin,Egwene and Elyas used in tEotW would become relavent again - maybe good asha'man vs bad asha'man happens near there, with the goodies winning in a swordfight. Or perhaps the ter'angreal from Far Madding can be reproduced over an Asha'man army - cue slaughter of bad Asha'man by army of farmers!

 

The second bit of my theory is, admittedly, a bit weak, but I do think the first point could be useful.

 

What do you think?

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

The only argument I have to counter that Idea is that i think Taim was going around claiming to be TDR while Moridin was still alive in his earlier incarnation. ..

Let me plant a seed of doubt and see if I can weaken your argument.

 

In a nuttshell;

First some facts, straight from the books.

 

Somewhere before TEotW: Slayer is created; one dead man & a living man are combined into one creature.

TEotW - TGH: Real Mazrim Taim, a False Dragon much like Logain.

End of TGH: Real Mazrim Taim captured by Aes Sedai (the moment Rand raises the Dragon Banner)

End of TDR: Ishamael killed by Rand, what's left of his Mind & Soul are caught by Shai'tan

TSR Chapter 17: Real Mazrim Taim is 'freed' (killing 2 Aes Sedai) in the night.

TSR Chapter 17: The Blight retreated for about 2 miles from Saldaea to Shienar (all along it's border).

 

Now the speculation;

The Blight retreated for no apparent reason. It stands to reason Shai'tan temporarily lost some of it's grip on reality, because it focused it's attention and a lot of it's energy elsewhere. We know for a fact Ishamael was killed recently and that it's Shai'tans one true champion. Shai'tan -needs- Ishamael back as soon as possible. It's a lot of coincidence that we hear about Mazrim Taim being 'freed' almost in the same breath. Two sisters died when Taim was taken from Aes Sedai custody, indicating Black Ajah involvement. Since -in hindsight- we know that Transmigration needs a suitable body, it's not a big leap to think that Taim's body was used to Transmigrate Ishamael in. And since Shai'tan now knows how to 'combine' one dead man and one living man (Slayer), it stands to reason that with his rising power and his prison weakening, he's adding a little extra something to the Transmigration.

 

He's making the Nae'Bliss a-la Slayer, but this time not with just a dead man and a living man, but with a living man's body (Taims) and a 'neverborn'.

He's adding a Fade to the mix, so that he can use what's left of Ishamaels living mind to have a channeling Myrddraal out in the world. Since both the Myrddraal mind & Ishamael's mind are pittifull things, there's plenty of 'gaps' (void) for Shai'tan to invade and take a direct Hand in matters.

 

That's why Shai'tan needed to re-rout so much of it's power and that's why the Blight retreated. Siuan thoguht it was a good thing the Blight retreated, but that chapter isn't called "Deceptions" for nothing in that PoV.

 

So after TSR Chapter 17, "Moridin" (literally Death) is created. The real Taim is gone and Ishamael is Transmigrated into his body.

Moridin recovers near Shayol Ghul (after his new body "has been rode hard and put away wet") and sends orders to Lord Bashere to move an army to Andor weakening Saldea further. Bashere is ordered to use the excuse of Taims escape to follow these orders. For if there's an army hunting Taim 'somewhere', Taim must be out there 'somewhere' too, right? The Black Ajah is ordered to keep the exact location of Bashere's army a secret, so noone can go check on that army's progress or aiding in capturing a male channeler that isn't there at all.

 

The "Taim" that shows up for Rand's amnesty is the 24/10 creature called the Nae'Bliss.

:)

 

 

I think Taim didnt teach them the sword because he is Moridin and he doesnt know how to wield one

 

And do we know that Moridin doesn't know how to use a sword? He doesn't use one, true, but that needn't mean anything more than he just prefers not to.

It's not really relevant if he knows how to wield a sword; Ishamael doesn't care about weapons. He wants these men to be weapons so they distance themselves from humanity. Sword-practice makes the wielder a human wielding a deadly tool. Moridin wants people to be the deadly tool. Ishamael tries to influence Rand in the same way, because the further Rand dinstances himself from humanity, from being a man, the more he becomes what Ishamael represents himself. And to become your enemy is to loose from him.

 

Oh... and isn't it funny that Bashere comes up with the name Asha'man? If you consider that an AshanDarei is a sword-spear, Mandarb and Manshima mean 'Sword' & 'Blade'?

Also recall that Ishamael promised Lews Therin way way back in the prologue of TEotW that 'he would make men kneel and worship the name they gave him to revile him'.

 

I think it's funny "Taim" (Moridin) calles himself M'hael (Leader).

Because when you combine Asha'man (Sword/ Blade; making men into weapons) and M'hael, you get Asha'm'hael (BladeMaster or SwordLeader).

 

Ishamael Transmigrated into Taim's body makes men worhsip the name they gave him to revile him. Aint that a hoot?!

 

Cheers,

Mik

[FarShainMael]

Intriguing, though I'm not sure about the linguistics

 

Incidentally, just what has Slayer been doing since Luc went to the Blight, 20+ years ago? He seems to have become active only recently.

[Mik]

Intriguing, though I'm not sure about the linguistics

Ah. I see the seed I planted has found some fertile soulsoil.

Lend me your ear, my good, good friend. For it is through the likes of you -one pledged to Peace for Hope- that this barren place called Dragonmount will find truth and salvation.

 

You doubt my interpretation of the Old Tongue? Was it not Rand himself who told us in his same thoughts and the same PoV where he tells us it's Bashere who came up with the name Asha'man that the Old Tongue was complex and that Old Tongue words could mean more then one thing, depending on the situation where it was used, or something very similar along those lines? (It's somewhere halfway LoC, I think)

You -especially you, given your name- should know, that in a language where 'Shain' is so close to both Peace and Battle that drawing a definite line between the two is folly. Lend me your ear and I will exalt you above all the others, through Peace or Battle, it matters not.

 

Asha'm'hael. What are the odds? Especially given Ishamaels own promise right at the start of the books. This is RJ we are talking about....

"Blademaster" What are the odds?

 

 

Incidentally, just what has Slayer been doing since Luc went to the Blight, 20+ years ago? He seems to have become active only recently.

I could tell you, but that'd fry your brain near instantly. Let's just keep it at "we just don't know".