The Big Unnoticed Thing

[Demiandre]

Alanna collapsed when they bonded Rand. Because of the Bond, which create a sense of feeling comparable to a circle. Wouldn't the result have been somewhat the same? Or worse? Moggy drop dead in one shot

[Val Mickey]

I'm sorry, you're right. Rendering the a'dam useless wouldn't have a big impact, what was I thinking?

 

What you proposed (if right) would result in the failure of collaring someone, not "render the a'dam useless". And it would make an impact, yes, but minor. What is one more damane worth? It won't convince the Seanchan to free the damane. And if it is a technique to show Egwene escaping from the a'dam, well, there are umpteen no. of ways that could be done. And circles were introduced in Book 3 (Siuan healing Mat) while the a'dam in Book 2. So it isn't the BUT. And Siuan would say you weren't.

[Sharaman]

I'm sorry, you're right. Rendering the a'dam useless wouldn't have a big impact, what was I thinking?

 

What you proposed (if right) would result in the failure of collaring someone, not "render the a'dam useless". And it would make an impact, yes, but minor. What is one more damane worth? It won't convince the Seanchan to free the damane. And if it is a technique to show Egwene escaping from the a'dam, well, there are umpteen no. of ways that could be done. And circles were introduced in Book 3 (Siuan healing Mat) while the a'dam in Book 2. So it isn't the BUT. And Siuan would say you weren't.

 

(Using "normal" circle below to denote a circle of saidar channelers without a'dam involved, "semi-normal" to denote a normal circle + an a'dam user).

We know the a'dam can collar women already holding the power (Nyn- Moggy, admittedly in TAR).

Strength in the power of the damane doesn't make a difference. she could even be using a powerful ang'real and she can still be collared.

Therefore, somebody leading a normal circle can in theory, be collared for a sul'dam to take control.

Any circle can have only one leader.

The sul'dam must lead in a forced circle.

So it should be possible for a sul'dam to lead a semi-normal circle, perhaps by allowing a normal circle to form and then collaring the leader.

A circle cannot work if two a'dams are introduced because of leadership-conflict.

(Egwene exploited this when counter-attacking the Seanchan raiders - they couldn't expand their circles.)

We've also seen that it's possible for a single sul'dam (Tuon) to wear two a'dams at the same time and thus lead two separate forced circles.

She may even be capable of handling two semi-normal circles simultaneously, by using two a'dam on two separate circle leaders?

Is there an overload factor in that the a'dam can't handle more than x amount of the power? We've never seen any such hint.

 

Extrapolating, if Nyn and Elayne wearing an a'dam controlling Moggy had been linked in a circle, either the circle would break up, maybe break up catastrophically with everybody burnt out, or Elayne would have to take control to make it work.

Incidentally both Egwene and Cadsuane have experimented to try and escape the a'dam unsuccessfully. Is there something, somewhere in the middle of all this circle-related speculation that suggests an escape route?

[haloun]

on the subject of callandor and it having a different use... i just realized that there are TWO power based objects that require two female chanellers and one male. i believe we find the domination band in tanchico during book four and cadsuane gives rand the info on callandor in book six perhaps something to do with that?

[haloun]

also to luckers, i believe it was actually lanfear who sent the trollocs to the stone of tear to help rand out. I may be wrong but i think it was lanfear.

[Demiandre]

Semirhage sent them. Confirmed in LoC, "Weaves of the Shadow" IIRC.

Like the Domination Band/Callandor thing.

[Coltsfan]

Hi all...

I think "Aunt_Pol" may have got the Big Unnoticed Thing but was unaware of it. In another post in a different thread she mentioned the note that Herold Fel gave to Rand regarding (we think) the seals; the note she then carried because she found it endearing; he said she was "too pretty". And, she did like Fel.

 

"Belief and order give strength; need to clear the rubble before rebuild. Dont bring girl; too pretty".

 

Maybe there is something much more to this note than meets the eye...other than the "you need to break the seals" that Min and Rand have already figured out?

 

It seems small and insignificant on its face, mentioned often, and has huge implications.

 

However Im not sure the time frame is accurate re: books 4-6. And while the note has been somewhat discussed, it was never mentioned as a candidate for it.

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

 

 

There are also several mentions that where the Seanchan have taken over that things are more orderly and very little crime. Whereas when Rand takes over the nobles are infighting and backstabbing. When the forsaken are told to let the Lord of Chaos rule, maybe this is why Rand has to kneel to Tuon, to help give belief and order.

[malkarisbot]

First time posting here. Long time lurker though. I have a theory on this I felt needed sharing. I'm not sure if this has been covered but here is how it goes:

 

I think it has to do with gateways and Mesaana's identity in the white tower.

 

First stop on this theory is Avienda. When she first created a gateway to Seanchan she forgot how to create the weave for the gateway. However she did get the channeler's block against learning a different way of Traveling. This also lets us know that Avienda's weave was different from the one Egwene reasoned out. So we have 2 (at least) different weaves for Traveling for Aes Sedai.

 

Ok here is the hand waving wild theory part. I think Avienda's way was remembered from a previous life. Specifically from the age of legends and the weave is standard for all AoL channelers.

 

This would suggest that the weave that Mesaana uses for Traveling is different from the now standard method of Traveling for Aes Sedai. Namely Egwene's method. Based on that we could say that if Mesaana opens a gateway near a light side channeler she may detect the differences and realize the implications. This could well lead to the discovery of her identity in the Tower.

 

There are a few possible holes/wild cards in this. One Mesaana taught Traveling to Alviarin. It could have implications. Also the standard lack of communications between characters may mean Egweane doesn't know about Avienda's alternate way exists. Although I don't know if that matters. It's more proof for us readers.

[dovien]

Could the BUT be Verin?

Is there anything that rules it out?

[Val Mickey]

Verin comes in Book 2.

[OptimusPrime]

Verin comes in Book 2.

 

Thats when she tells the famous lie as well IIRC

[dovien]

Verin comes in Book 2.

 

Thats when she tells the famous lie as well IIRC

I wasn't sure which book the lie was in but if it was that early then I guess that rules her out, oh well.

[OptimusPrime]

Verin comes in Book 2.

 

Thats when she tells the famous lie as well IIRC

I wasn't sure which book the lie was in but if it was that early then I guess that rules her out, oh well.

 

Yeah she said it to Perrin I think, it was when Agelmar was with them IIRC or around that time.

[Sharaman]

Verin comes in Book 2.

 

Thats when she tells the famous lie as well IIRC

I wasn't sure which book the lie was in but if it was that early then I guess that rules her out, oh well.

 

Yeah she said it to Perrin I think, it was when Agelmar was with them IIRC or around that time.

When she catches up with Ingtar, Perrin & Co. while chasing Fain. She says Moiraine sent me.

[OptimusPrime]

Verin comes in Book 2.

 

Thats when she tells the famous lie as well IIRC

I wasn't sure which book the lie was in but if it was that early then I guess that rules her out, oh well.

 

Yeah she said it to Perrin I think, it was when Agelmar was with them IIRC or around that time.

When she catches up with Ingtar, Perrin & Co. while chasing Fain. She says Moiraine sent me.

 

Ah yes it was Ingtar not Agelmar, thanks for that

[ROB_88]

plus, she's not really unnoticed. everything about her, from actions to cup-size has been discussed in full detail

[The Fisher King]

I wanted to share a thought that I have been thinking about the Big Unnoticed Thing that supposedly exists somewhere in Books 4 - 6.

 

I'm sure this has been covered to death, but I have a hunch that it is NOT something that actually physically exists - like the Fat Man Angreal, or the blood-written abbreviated message on the dead Tinker's wagon or the Seal that Taim presented Rand with. Or any of the items the Wonder Girl Idiots were screwing around with during those times.

 

In other words, not a physical object.

 

I think it was an event or an expreience that occured during that time frame.

 

Dumai's Wells was certainly an event, but I'd hardly call it ''un-noticed'' lol.

 

So, maybe some subtle epiphany or expreience one of the characters experienced that maybe wasn't recognized at the time as significant?

 

I'm thinking more Experience as opposed to Event - mainly because I doubt that anything that could properly be called an ''Event'' in WOT Books 1 - 4 could be called ''Unnoticed'' lol.

 

So maybe we could try to think about Experiences ot Realizations that the characters had during this time.

 

Hmmm.

 

Thats kinda hard.

 

Some ideas:

 

1 Rand realized that the Aiel were originally pacifists.

 

2 Thom realizing the depth of his feeling for Moiraine? In Book 4 he thinks something like: now there was a fine woman, and she laughed at his quips, too...

 

3 Moiraine apparently experienced the revelation (because of The Doorway) that she would not survive The Waste - which is why she rigged events to go the way they did at the docks at the end of FOH. In my opinion, Moiraine manipulated prophecy here, but thats a talk for another day.

 

I don't know. I guess I'm probably not giving good examples here, just trying to share my thought that the BUT may have been a more figurative thing than a literal/physical one.

 

JMO of course, I'm sorry if the ideas I'm sharing here have been shared to death already. I can't wait to see how horrendously wrong I am on all this when the book comes out, LOL!!! :-)

 

 

 

Fish

[Demiandre]

I've been thinking a bit about the BUT, and I came upon the conclusion that it is some kind of joke.

 

I searched for things not really related to the story that could make us slap our faces.

 

In tSR, Rand clearly states "Surprising what you can dig.out if books, if you read long enough". We also see Rand compulsing tomes of the Karaethon Circle. And we also have others indication that what we read/hear/see/learn is not always what we think it is. It is recurent in the serie.

 

Whay if the BUT was as simple as : "Read And Find Out"? Would be obvious, hasn't been mentioned and/or discussed to death, and will be highly relevant in ToM when we have hints on various long-lasting issues. And of course, we should have guessed when we first had the hints.

 

Isn't it a good idea? Would be apocalyptic!

 

Edit @ Fisher King :

What about the doorframe ter'angreal? We don't know what she asked and what her answers were. It is the Rings in Rhuidean you're talking about. And additionnaly, she knew she would die. But she knew it would be at the docks. She knew she would survive the Waste.

[The Fisher King]

I've been thinking a bit about the BUT, and I came upon the conclusion that it is some kind of joke.

 

I searched for things not really related to the story that could make us slap our faces.

 

In tSR, Rand clearly states "Surprising what you can dig.out if books, if you read long enough". We also see Rand compulsing tomes of the Karaethon Circle. And we also have others indication that what we read/hear/see/learn is not always what we think it is. It is recurent in the serie.

 

Whay if the BUT was as simple as : "Read And Find Out"? Would be obvious, hasn't been mentioned and/or discussed to death, and will be highly relevant in ToM when we have hints on various long-lasting issues. And of course, we should have guessed when we first had the hints.

 

Isn't it a good idea? Would be apocalyptic!

 

Edit @ Fisher King :

What about the doorframe ter'angreal? We don't know what she asked and what her answers were. It is the Rings in Rhuidean you're talking about. And additionnaly, she knew she would die. But she knew it would be at the docks. She knew she would survive the Waste.

 

Demi: Thanks for clarifying. I usually know what I want to say, but sometimes have a wee bit of trouble with terms, locations etc, lol.

 

But, yes - that fateful day at The Docks at the end of TFOH. If Moiraine Sedai knew she would die that day, and her pre-manipulations led to certain events happening the way they happened that day, then maybe that is a Big Clue. Or maybe not, lol.

 

Who knows what might have happened - or not happened - at The Docks if Moir hadn't been so certain that she was destined to die there.

 

For that matter, who is to say that Moiraine, because of her foreknowledge, did not, paradoxically trigger a self-fullfilling prophecy???

 

ARRRG. Head. Hurt. lol.

 

 

 

Fish

[Hand of the Creator]

First time posting here. Long time lurker though. I have a theory on this I felt needed sharing. I'm not sure if this has been covered but here is how it goes:

 

I think it has to do with gateways and Mesaana's identity in the white tower.

 

First stop on this theory is Avienda. When she first created a gateway to Seanchan she forgot how to create the weave for the gateway. However she did get the channeler's block against learning a different way of Traveling. This also lets us know that Avienda's weave was different from the one Egwene reasoned out. So we have 2 (at least) different weaves for Traveling for Aes Sedai.

 

Ok here is the hand waving wild theory part. I think Avienda's way was remembered from a previous life. Specifically from the age of legends and the weave is standard for all AoL channelers.

 

This would suggest that the weave that Mesaana uses for Traveling is different from the now standard method of Traveling for Aes Sedai. Namely Egwene's method. Based on that we could say that if Mesaana opens a gateway near a light side channeler she may detect the differences and realize the implications. This could well lead to the discovery of her identity in the Tower.

 

There are a few possible holes/wild cards in this. One Mesaana taught Traveling to Alviarin. It could have implications. Also the standard lack of communications between characters may mean Egweane doesn't know about Avienda's alternate way exists. Although I don't know if that matters. It's more proof for us readers.

 

 

The only thing I can see that I disagree with in this is that Moghedien knew the same Traveling weave as Egwene as shown when she learns exactly who "Marigan" is.

[Zyntras]

First time posting here. Long time lurker though. I have a theory on this I felt needed sharing. I'm not sure if this has been covered but here is how it goes:

 

I think it has to do with gateways and Mesaana's identity in the white tower.

 

First stop on this theory is Avienda. When she first created a gateway to Seanchan she forgot how to create the weave for the gateway. However she did get the channeler's block against learning a different way of Traveling. This also lets us know that Avienda's weave was different from the one Egwene reasoned out. So we have 2 (at least) different weaves for Traveling for Aes Sedai.

 

Ok here is the hand waving wild theory part. I think Avienda's way was remembered from a previous life. Specifically from the age of legends and the weave is standard for all AoL channelers.

 

This would suggest that the weave that Mesaana uses for Traveling is different from the now standard method of Traveling for Aes Sedai. Namely Egwene's method. Based on that we could say that if Mesaana opens a gateway near a light side channeler she may detect the differences and realize the implications. This could well lead to the discovery of her identity in the Tower.

 

There are a few possible holes/wild cards in this. One Mesaana taught Traveling to Alviarin. It could have implications. Also the standard lack of communications between characters may mean Egweane doesn't know about Avienda's alternate way exists. Although I don't know if that matters. It's more proof for us readers.

 

 

The only thing I can see that I disagree with in this is that Moghedien knew the same Traveling weave as Egwene as shown when she learns exactly who "Marigan" is.

 

thats not clear, mogi was only stunned that egi knew a way to create a waygate, she never confirmed that it was the only/best way

[Rawdog]

First post here, lurked for a while tho, a while back I first stumbled upon this discussion about the BUT and just so happened to be reaching the end of book 3 in a reread of the whole series so I kept an eye out. Unfortunately I wasn't able to post when i came up with a theory that i'm semi sure hasn't been mentioned yet. What about the aura that Min sees around Logain, promising glory and what-not, from what I can remember that hasn't been fully explained, it appears in book 4, and since Logain is present from then on, technically it could be classed as ongoing. At a stretch him being healed by Nynaeve, and thereby providing her with the cure for stilling/gentling and then him going on to try to explain it to the Asha'man could be it but i'm not sure. Does anyone have any idea what his glory is/was or if i'm just way off with this?

[Barid Bel Medar]

First post here, lurked for a while tho, a while back I first stumbled upon this discussion about the BUT and just so happened to be reaching the end of book 3 in a reread of the whole series so I kept an eye out. Unfortunately I wasn't able to post when i came up with a theory that i'm semi sure hasn't been mentioned yet. What about the aura that Min sees around Logain, promising glory and what-not, from what I can remember that hasn't been fully explained, it appears in book 4, and since Logain is present from then on, technically it could be classed as ongoing. At a stretch him being healed by Nynaeve, and thereby providing her with the cure for stilling/gentling and then him going on to try to explain it to the Asha'man could be it but i'm not sure. Does anyone have any idea what his glory is/was or if i'm just way off with this?

 

Not the BUT. Logain's aura of glory has been discussed to death.

 

It is pretty clear now that Logain will win his glory dealing with the problems of the Black Tower. (Taim etc..)

 

How that happens EXACTLY remains to be seen, but the BT problem is definitely his time to shine.

[Zyntras]

First post here, lurked for a while tho, a while back I first stumbled upon this discussion about the BUT and just so happened to be reaching the end of book 3 in a reread of the whole series so I kept an eye out. Unfortunately I wasn't able to post when i came up with a theory that i'm semi sure hasn't been mentioned yet. What about the aura that Min sees around Logain, promising glory and what-not, from what I can remember that hasn't been fully explained, it appears in book 4, and since Logain is present from then on, technically it could be classed as ongoing. At a stretch him being healed by Nynaeve, and thereby providing her with the cure for stilling/gentling and then him going on to try to explain it to the Asha'man could be it but i'm not sure. Does anyone have any idea what his glory is/was or if i'm just way off with this?

 

Not the BUT. Logain's aura of glory has been discussed to death.

 

It is pretty clear now that Logain will win his glory dealing with the problems of the Black Tower. (Taim etc..)

 

How that happens EXACTLY remains to be seen, but the BT problem is definitely his time to shine.

 

he could also become the new amerlyn seat of the united bt and wt ^^ or he is the real DR and Rand is just a feint by the pattern to throw of the DO ^^

[Sharaman]

First time posting here. Long time lurker though. I have a theory on this I felt needed sharing. I'm not sure if this has been covered but here is how it goes:

 

I think it has to do with gateways and Mesaana's identity in the white tower.

 

First stop on this theory is Avienda. When she first created a gateway to Seanchan she forgot how to create the weave for the gateway. However she did get the channeler's block against learning a different way of Traveling. This also lets us know that Avienda's weave was different from the one Egwene reasoned out. So we have 2 (at least) different weaves for Traveling for Aes Sedai.

 

Ok here is the hand waving wild theory part. I think Avienda's way was remembered from a previous life. Specifically from the age of legends and the weave is standard for all AoL channelers.

 

This would suggest that the weave that Mesaana uses for Traveling is different from the now standard method of Traveling for Aes Sedai. Namely Egwene's method. Based on that we could say that if Mesaana opens a gateway near a light side channeler she may detect the differences and realize the implications. This could well lead to the discovery of her identity in the Tower.

 

There are a few possible holes/wild cards in this. One Mesaana taught Traveling to Alviarin. It could have implications. Also the standard lack of communications between characters may mean Egweane doesn't know about Avienda's alternate way exists. Although I don't know if that matters. It's more proof for us readers.

 

 

The only thing I can see that I disagree with in this is that Moghedien knew the same Traveling weave as Egwene as shown when she learns exactly who "Marigan" is.

 

Avi's Travel weave isn't radically different from the way Egwene discovered and taught the other supergirls. Whatever the differences between Avi's homebrewed methods and Egwene's method, they're very similar.

Avi has First weave- second weave problems which only arise when the two weaves are very similar.

Vide Romanda's thoughts on Nyn's methods of healing - Romanda learns them easily because they are sufficiently dissimilar from normal yellow healing weaves.