The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory

[FarShainMael]

I feel that this theory pretty much died with TOM. Rand makes it quite clear that there will be no more darkfriends hiding among his followers. I don't see why Bashere would be an exception.

 

Because it seems he has to actively seek them out. Look at how he made the lords and ladies of Tear line up for inspection.

[yoniy0]

FSM, you have to invoke some kind of special protection for your theory to work, seeing as how Bashere was staring straight at whatever it was Rand did at Maradon, but apparently felt no need to claw his eyes out.

 

I'm not saying that anyone can prove you wrong at this point, but it does take more mental acrobatics to accept your theory than the alternative.

[WhiskyJack]

I feel that this theory pretty much died with TOM. Rand makes it quite clear that there will be no more darkfriends hiding among his followers. I don't see why Bashere would be an exception.

 

Because it seems he has to actively seek them out. Look at how he made the lords and ladies of Tear line up for inspection.

 

 

And they couldn't talk to him face to face. Nah, it would plain weird for Rand to seek minor DF's out and leave big ones so close.

[FarShainMael]

I don't think a deus ex machina of special protection would be needed, I think it's a question of where Rand's attention is directed. Bashere was not present at the Tear lineup. And it's possible Torkumen got sucked in because he was complicit in the Trolloc attack, which Bashere wasn't AFAIK.

[Aquarius]

I'm not saying that anyone can prove you wrong at this point, but it does take more mental acrobatics to accept your theory than the alternative.

 

I don't think a deus ex machina of special protection would be needed, I think it's a question of where Rand's attention is directed. Bashere was not present at the Tear lineup. And it's possible Torkumen got sucked in because he was complicit in the Trolloc attack, which Bashere wasn't AFAIK.

 

yes, something like that :)

[Rose]

Even if he does need to seek them out, don't you think he would have made a point to do so, though? It would be quite ridiculus of him to say "you can't hide anymore!" and then let really important Darkfriends continue hiding right under his nose. Just because he isn't explicitely described as doing so on screen doesn't mean he didn't think to check that Bashere wasn't a Darkfriend. In fact, it would make no sense at all: inspect all the Tairen lords and ladies, but not spare a look for his closest allies? Come on.

[Xcorpyo001]

I find it strange that every DF should be marked by the Dark One. There are other ways to make a person act against Rand, without a connection to the DO:

-torture from Semirhage(before her death). She used it in AoL to control Councilors, and she didn't say anything about also marking them as DF.

-Compulsion by Graendal; only wisible with Delving by a woman

-rite of passage: maybe future DF have to accomplish a mission/goal before proving their worth and be marked by the DO.

-blackmail; maybe the Shadow has members of his family hostage(Faile mentions a smaller brother that went to the Blight, but they never mention him again, not even as KIA/MIA) and he has to help the Chosen if he wants to see them alive.

 

Not to mention the fact that Fain can also sense DF, so maybe the DO will chose to change the markings or mark them only after they complete their assignment.

[FarShainMael]

@Rose: As I said, Bashere wasn't there at that time. We don't know what Rand did offscreen before he showed up at Maradon.

 

I agree he should be checking his allies, checking everyone. Some reasons why he may not: he's in the aftermath of an enormous mental, emotional, and moral upheaval; he has to cope with a flood of newly integrated LTT-memories; he's worried about Lan; etc. And there's the little matter of nearly balefiring his own father. That's a lot for even Rand Sedai to sort out all in one go. He has to prioritise. Not saying his priorities at that point are right, just saying that's how it might be happening.

[FarShainMael]

I'm not saying that anyone can prove you wrong at this point, but it does take more mental acrobatics to accept your theory than the alternative.

 

I don't think a deus ex machina of special protection would be needed, I think it's a question of where Rand's attention is directed. Bashere was not present at the Tear lineup. And it's possible Torkumen got sucked in because he was complicit in the Trolloc attack, which Bashere wasn't AFAIK.

 

yes, something like that :)

 

Like this, you mean?

 

Rand continued down the line, looking at each of the nobles in turn, not speaking. Min glanced to the side. Near the end of the line, Weiramon kept glancing at Rand, then looking away...

 

...Rand eventually reached him. "Meet my eyes, Weiramon," Rand said softly.

 

"My Lord Dragon, surely I am not worthy to - "

 

"Do it."

 

Weiramon did so with an odd difficulty. He looked as if he was gritting his teeth, his eyes watering.

 

"So it is you," Rand said.

[WhiskyJack]

After Rand catches Wieramon, he asks him to carry the message that DFs cannot hide amongst his people anymore. Sounds too bold if Rand didn't even bother to check people close to him. Besides, Bashere and Rand had face to face in Maradon. I don't know what special trick Bashere is using to hide from Rand while talking to him face to face but I prefer simpler explanations. The whole Tear scene was a turning point in story to show how Rand, just by looking, can tell who is what. If Bashere is hiding in plain sight, Tear scene would look utterly pointless.

[Rose]

^ My point exactly. While I understand your argument, FarShainMael, I think it's stupid to brag that your ennemies can't hide from you if you know it's not true. And since Rand doesn't stike me as stupid, particularly post-VOG, his statement there leads me to believe that he could and would oust all the Darkfriends around him as soon as he had a chance. While it can be argued that Bashere escaped that somehow, it still seems hard to believe. Now we can never prove that he's not a Darfriend, but it's what seems most plausible and reasonable.

[FarShainMael]

OK, fair enough. I'm not persuaded, but I think the one thing we can say with any certainty, though, is that Bashere will have some kind of pivotal role to play per Min's Viewing of him, and anything can happen in the next half hour book!

[Rose]

Yes, I agree with that ;) And I also agree that Bashere could be led to turn against Rand not because he's a DF, but because they have something on him, or they Compelled him, or something like that.

[OptimusPrime]

mental acrobatics

 

Hahahaha

[FarShainMael]

mental acrobatics

 

Hahahaha

 

Useful phrase, that

[BekahRebel]

Interesting idea, Bashere is one of those who I never suspected as being DF... So it would be interesting if he somehow turns out to be so..

I didn't read the entire thread, so don't know if this has been asked, but I wonder what that means in regards to Faile if Bashere is discovered as DF... It certainly wouldn't bode well for her and would definitely make it rather difficult for Perrin to take the broken crown, or I'd assume so...

[FarShainMael]

I don't think it would disqualify Faile from the succession, though she may be challenged and be required to prove she isn't a DF, I would think.

[water_seeker]

I'm pretty sure Rand gave Bashere the stare-down test just before he...intervened...in Maradon:

 

"We need to get out of the city," Bashere said, his voice urgent. "I'm sorry, man. Maradon is lost."

 

"No," al'Thor said softly. "The Shadow will not have this city. Not after what these men did to hold it. I will not allow it."

 

"An honorable sentiment," Bashere said, "but we don't..." He trailed off as al'Thor looked at him.

 

Those eyes. So intense. They seemed almost alight. "They will not take this city, Bashere..."

 

It seems Rand can see Light-siders at a glance anyway:

 

"It was not the anger of destruction, though I did destroy. In Maradon, I saw what had been done to men who followed me, I saw Light in them, Min. Defying the Dark One no matter the length of his shadow..."

 

Not just light, or a light, but Light... If I'm right and he sees the Light in the people (and he's really seeing it, not metaphorically...which I admit is possible) then he'd be sure to examine anyone he's not seeing the Light in to make sure he doesn't see the Shadow...I suspect that there are those with neither so he'd have to look to make sure...(clearly speculation on my part, I know).

 

So, if I'm right and he did check Bashere out before unleashing @ Maradon, then what he says post Maradon makes me sure Bashere isn't a DF:

 

"I have a right to my anger, Bashere. Don't you see? Before, I tried to hold it all hidden within. That was wrong. I must feel..."

 

If Bashere was a DF and Rand checked him out then Rand would have more than enough reason to be furious...but he hasn't showed it, and he isn't hiding it anymore...

[FarShainMael]

It's just possible that (as I said upthread) Rand's attention was on the incoming Shadowspawn and anyone (like Torkumen) directly linked to it, rather than on Bashere himself; in the same way that his attention was focussed on the lineup of the Tear lords when he flushed out Weiramon.

 

Even so, I think Bashere felt something. The non-DFs in that lineup weren't affected at all.

[water_seeker]

It's just possible that (as I said upthread) Rand's attention was on the incoming Shadowspawn and anyone (like Torkumen) directly linked to it, rather than on Bashere himself; in the same way that his attention was focussed on the lineup of the Tear lords when he flushed out Weiramon.

 

Even so, I think Bashere felt something. The non-DFs in that lineup weren't affected at all.

 

Except for:

 

"An honorable sentiment," Bashere said, "but we don't..." He trailed off as al'Thor looked at him.

 

Those eyes. So intense. They seemed almost alight. "They will not take this city, Bashere..."

 

Rand was looking at him intently as he was trying to talk about abandoning Maradon as lost...

[FarShainMael]

Looking at him, yes. But he was thinking about Maradon, and the attack.

[yoniy0]

Even so, I think Bashere felt something. The non-DFs in that lineup weren't affected at all.

He did, but I take that to hint at nothing more than Rand's newfound intensity. Surely, Bahsere's experience wasn't even close to that of the Sitters (or even Egwene, BTW), and we know none of them are DF.

[WhiskyJack]

 

"It was not the anger of destruction, though I did destroy. In Maradon, I saw what had been done to men who followed me, I saw Light in them, Min. Defying the Dark One no matter the length of his shadow..."

 

 

 

What is this Light? People made big deal over capital light but if Rand is to believed, everyone who follows light has this Light in them. Rand just shines brighter than anyone else. So is Light a link to Creator?

[water_seeker]

It's a pretty big leap to think that Rand stares down Bashere so intensely yet doesn't see that he's a DF...unless there's nothing to see. He was upset at what was happening, yes, but his focus at that point was on Bashere. On top of that, I find it hard to believe that a person that can weave over a dozen weaves at a time would be incapable of mental multitasking.

[FarShainMael]

Fair enough. Again, I'm not persuaded, but each to their own opinion.