The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory

[FarShainMael]

I think you guys focusing on DF being speechless are being silly. What Rand did, hell what he proposed to do was Insane. Walking nightmares is one thing, facing those nightmares is quite another, but claiming you're going to stop an army of Shadowspawn that all the borderland armies gathered together would have trouble facing is enough to leave ANYONE dumbfounded.

 

I mean, The Pope himself could be argued to be the most dedicated Holy man in the world, and no miricle should shock him, but I bet if the Lord himself stepped down during service and said BEHOLD, he'd be dumbfounded.

 

You can't prepare yourself for somethings, no one is immune to shock and awe. No one at all. Borderlander or not, hell DB could have been an Ashman of the highest order, wielder of the power on a level just below Rand, winner of thousands of battles, and that would still set him back. In face, who was the Ashaman who started crying saying what Rand did was so beautiful? I mean even he was taken aback! (Was it Jahar Narishma?, a borderlander himself) I can't recall.

 

I don't recall any reports of 'shock and awe' at Jesus' miracles in the Gospels.......

 

Note that Rand hasn't suddenly appeared to DB, he's been working with him for quite a while. Indeed:

 

"Curse that man!... I thought he wasn't going to do this sort of thing any longer!"

 

So DB's seen something lke it before...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Note that Rand hasn't suddenly appeared to DB, he's been working with him for quite a while. Indeed:

 

"Curse that man!... I thought he wasn't going to do this sort of thing any longer!"

 

So DB's seen something lke it before...

 

To be fair, Bashere was talking about Rand suddenly going off without explaining, not the actual molestation of the Trollocs.

 

Rand hadn't done anything at that point, merely opened a gateway.

 

I suppose, if he had seen something like it before, he could have known what Rand was about to do, but I doubt it, Naeff hadn't nor had anyone else, why should Bashere have known but nobody else?

[FarShainMael]

I can't agree, sorry:

 

"They will nnot take this city, Bashere," al'Thor said, an edge of anger entering his quiet voice. He waved to the side, and a gateway split the air. The sound of drums and Trollocs yelling grew closer, suddenly. "I'm tired of letting him hurt my people. Pull your soldiers back."

 

With that, al'Thor stepped through the gateway. A pair of Aiel Maidens hurried into the room, and he left the gateway open long enough for them to leap through behind him. Then he let it vanish.

 

It was pretty obvious to everyone watching - including Bashere - where Rand was going and what his intentions were.

 

It's true that Naeff was astonished by Rand's attack - but that could well have been because they were facing the largest group of Shadowspawn they had yet encountered. He said, specifically, that he had never seen so many weaves at once - not that he had never seen Rand engage the Shadow before.

[Barid Bel Medar]

hold up, seem to have misenterpreted.

 

Bashere has seen something similar. Rand with Callandor and the Seanchan, Rand in KoD when the manor is attacked.

 

So in that way, I think I can agree that he would not have been astonished.

 

And so perhaps if old Tork were at the manor he would have had the same reaction.

 

I thought you were talking about Rand going round obliterating Shadowspawn armies (albeit, you said on a smaller scale) in ToM in which case this is highly unlikely. The rest of the Chapter indicates that nobody had seen something like it, nor does Rand, when explaining to Min, show any indication of having done anything of the like since VoG. Along with the fact that there is no other evidence to hint at something like this happening.

 

And then, why would Bashere expect it not to happen again? If he had been obliterating shadowspawn recently, Bashere should have expected it, and not have been stunned as he was.

 

This would imply something important happening, like Rand nearly dying fighting Shadowspawn, and a reproach from someone, then Rand agreeing not to do it again, or something similar. Which is highly unlikely something like this would have no other hints.

 

It was Rand himself that said it was a bad idea, and he should not let it happen again, which indicates it was a one time thing. Since he does not want to engage the shadow yet.

 

It would mean that he fought Shadowspawn, had some kind of argument and came to some agreement which led Bashere to think he would not do something like it again, then go and do it again, then reproach himself for doing it. It is possible, but very inconsistent. and very complicated for something that happened entirely off-screen.

 

Not that I am saying this proves Bashere isn't a DF, since we do not know what Rand's power over Darkfriends is, or if it even exists.

[FarShainMael]

I agree, there are lots of unknowns here. All I can reasonably conclude is that DB could be a DF; it isn't ruled out; but it's not confirmed either. Seems we'll have to RAFO on Min's Viewing of him

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, sorry if it seemed like I was trying to say that, I actually am quite partial to the general idea. I don't think he is, but it certainly is something worth a look. Also, I never liked the thought that Rand's new DF sensor thing would destroy all DF's. I think there is more to it than that.

 

One interesting thing about that scene that may point to Bashere being one is when he says to Ituralde "I don't think he means the battle." about old Tork. Could suggest that he knows because he himself has felt similar, just better able to control it because of his extended "exposure" to Rand.

[yoniy0]

Now you're taking this too far. There is no conclusive proof that Bashere isn't a DF here, agreed (and, I might add, that fact is intentional on Brandon's side), but there is ample evidence. Rand did say with absolute certainty that the time for subterfuge is over; it would be very odd for a DF to hide his true nature from Rand over a long period of time together from that point on. Not to mention the effect at 'the battle of the temple', as Brandon referred to it. You could explain it away, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make your theory less likely. And I reckon, it actually makes it far less likely.

[FarShainMael]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the battle of the temple'?

 

As for DB's long association with the new, 'unblinded' Rand.. I have a had a go at that, along the lines of where and how Rand's attention is directed. He had to search to find a DF at Tear, who turned out to be Weiramon (and Anaiyella). His attention was on the attacking Trollocs at Maradon, not directly on Bashere. I think Tork got caught up in that because his treachery had led directly to that attack.

 

Also, bear in mind that Rand is still fallible. He admits it himself:

 

"Today's battle exhausted me beyond what I should have allowed. If my enemies were to come upon me now, I'd be finished."

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

The "temple" refers to this quote Brandon made:

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 17th, 2011Alloy of Law Signing Report - Loialson (Verbatim)

 

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

 

It is interesting to think what the Temple might mean, have we even seen a Temple in WoT? But in any case, that is for another thread.

[yoniy0]

FSM, I've seen your go at it. As I said, I find it feasible. Still, there's a long distance from feasible to likely, or even 'beyond reasonable doubt'. What disturbed me was that I didn't see you acknowledge that this is a blow to your theory (however mild you think it is. Myself, as I said, I wouldn't call it mild at all).

 

On a different topic, it took me quite some time to figure out what a 'DB' is in this context

[FarShainMael]

@BBM: Thanks for that info about the Temple.. go start that thread!

 

@yoniy0: My theory has taken a lot of blows, many of them by people who haven't bothered to read through the thread (you aren't one of those!). But I did say to you that I had 'had a go' at it. If English is not your first language, as I believe to be the case, perhaps you are not aware that this form of words does indeed indicate recognition of a counter-argument implicitly, and attempts to meet that counter-argument. (Please bear in mind that I have communications difficulties of my own due to Asperger's Syndrome, and I do not intend to offend in saying this.)

 

As to whether I consider my theory feasible, likely, certain, or whatever, I hoped I had made that clear in my post 155 above.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well if it makes any difference, I believe that both you guys can communicate quite well, much better than some without your own individual difficulties.

[FarShainMael]

We seem to be doing ok so far

 

[yoniy0]

Yes, and FSM knows me (though you didn't trust your recollection completely, did you?). I just enjoy playing devil's advocate way too much.

 

Although, I have to say, I never thought of not being an Englishmen or an American as a 'difficulty', per se. Not to mention those poor souls from down under

[Barid Bel Medar]

haha, I meant learning English as a second language(on a predominantly English-language forum). It is ridiculous enough learning it as a first language.

 

It truly is the Land of Madmen down here, I would pity our poor souls as well

[Matthew79]

If he was dark friend surely losing him would not hurt Rand. At least not the extent that min fortells.

[FarShainMael]

@yoniy0: I was being cautious

 

@bbm: I have LoM relatives..

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

@bbm: I have LoM relatives..

 

Wooo! Funnily enough, I also have UK (what? Tremalking?) relatives up north around yorkshire

 

Back on topic, if Bashere turned out to be a DF, how would Faile fit into your theory? Would she also be a DF, and how would it affect her and Perrin? (Sorry if I missed it, I kinda just skimmed through the topic)

[yoniy0]

If he was dark friend surely losing him would not hurt Rand. At least not the extent that min fortells.

I always thought that some of that was unjustly attributed to a Viewing. I read it as the 'something dark' being her Viewing, and the part about loosing him was just Min's commenting on the Viewing, nothing with any prophetic properties. Unfortunately, I couldn't find it right now, so I can't cite the relevant passage.

[FarShainMael]

@bbm: I don't think DB being DF would have any implications for Faile (though that would be a nice twist ). I'm less sure about Mrs DB (Deira?) On the one hand, it might be a bit difficult for him to keep such a thing hidden from her. On the other hand, the exchange between them in CoT Prologue - when Deira is attacked by two strangers in their tent - could be read two ways even if DB is a DF (and a third way if he isn't!) At one point he thinks to himself:

 

He had been expecting this, or something like, for a long time, but he had almost begun to think it would not happen. And he had never expected Deira to die because of it.

 

So, whatever it was, he had thought Deira would not be involved.

 

@yoniy0: Allow me..

 

"And there's something... dark... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies.. I heard one of the soldiers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing even one of them would be a blow. Lose all three, and it might take you a year to recover."

 

'All three' seem from the context of the chapter to be Bashere, Dobraine, and Logain. Dobraine was attacked and seriously wounded in CoT Prologue.

[Vardar]

I think you guys focusing on DF being speechless are being silly. What Rand did, hell what he proposed to do was Insane. Walking nightmares is one thing, facing those nightmares is quite another, but claiming you're going to stop an army of Shadowspawn that all the borderland armies gathered together would have trouble facing is enough to leave ANYONE dumbfounded. I mean, The Pope himself could be argued to be the most dedicated Holy man in the world, and no miricle should shock him, but I bet if the Lord himself stepped down during service and said BEHOLD, he'd be dumbfounded. You can't prepare yourself for somethings, no one is immune to shock and awe. No one at all. Borderlander or not, hell DB could have been an Ashman of the highest order, wielder of the power on a level just below Rand, winner of thousands of battles, and that would still set him back. In face, who was the Ashaman who started crying saying what Rand did was so beautiful? I mean even he was taken aback! (Was it Jahar Narishma?, a borderlander himself) I can't recall.

I don't recall any reports of 'shock and awe' at Jesus' miracles in the Gospels....... Note that Rand hasn't suddenly appeared to DB, he's been working with him for quite a while. Indeed:

"Curse that man!... I thought he wasn't going to do this sort of thing any longer!"

So DB's seen something lke it before...

 

(Sorry for the quoting fail here, at work and stuck on IE)

 

Anyway, there's plently of Shock and Awe in the bible. Look at some of the fish scenes. It's there. Now I have to go back and read my book.

 

It was Naeff (and he's Andoran, if that matters), and he was impressed; That's quite different from crying.

 

I could have sworn I recalled tears. I have to go check again, and my Ipad is giving me the blues, somehow my WOT collection got deleted. Great. I shall read it and report back tomorrow.

 

As for him searching for a DF at tear, I wouldn't call that searching. He knew it was one of them, he just had them all line up so he could look directly at them. Are you implying he hasn't looked directly as a valued ally since then? At all? I mean that's a stretch good sir.

 

While it's not impossible that DB is a DF, I believe it to be highly unlikely. It would take so much explaining it would be beyond silly!

[Suttree]

I could have sworn I recalled tears. I have to go check again, and my Ipad is giving me the blues, somehow my WOT collection got deleted. Great. I shall read it and report back tomorrow.

 

No tears...

ToM

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

[Vardar]

I could have sworn I recalled tears. I have to go check again, and my Ipad is giving me the blues, somehow my WOT collection got deleted. Great. I shall read it and report back tomorrow.

 

No tears...

ToM

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

Touche sir. However usage of "gasping" and whispering suggestions extreme shock and awe. Whispering is near speechless.

 

Again, when has anyone seen something like this done before? Even when the manor house was attacked, how many channelers helped? And they still barely held them off (They made it to the house). That was a fraction of the amount of shadowspawn, and just Trollocs and Myrdaal.

[Suttree]

Again, when has anyone seen something like this done before? Even when the manor house was attacked, how many channelers helped? And they still barely held them off (They made it to the house). That was a fraction of the amount of shadowspawn, and just Trollocs and Myrdaal.

 

Interestingly enough there is a quote touching on this. BS seems to imply that Rand has been powered up since KoD and that he didn't kill all that many more Shadowspawn than at the manor house.

 

 

 

interview: Dec 17th, 2011

 

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Loialson (Verbatim)

 

 

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

 

[Vardar]

Interestingly enough there is a quote touching on this. BS seems to imply that Rand has been powered up since KoD and that he didn't kill all that many more Shadowspawn than at the manor house.

 

See. I find that hard to swallow too. I mean they had hundreds of soldiers, more channelers and a psuedo defendable position at the "temple" and they still wanted to escape. They had none of that at the manor house. The descriptions of the army at the Temple suggests am Army large enough to overwhelm any country in the borderlands. Plus the Shadowspawn had airsupport here. And perhaps a few channelers (Although weak)