Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

What's In the Future For Graendal


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

Note: Before I said that she died, but in defending the 'Could she had lived' catagory, I've convinced myself that she lived.

 

Did Graendal Die?

 

Given we never saw a body, and Brandon refused to confirm whether or not she died, it was expectable that people would start theorising about her potentially living--but is there any reason to do so beyond simple nostalgia?

 

Something Strange...

 

The point that may suggest that things might have gone differently than they appeared to lies in the question--why didn't Graendal flee? Rand himself states that...

 

"She will vanish the moment I threaten her, running to one of a dozen other refuges she is sure to have set up."

 

[tGS; 37, A Force of Light]

 

Through Ramshalan she knows that Rand not only knows precisely where she is, but is thinking about the possibility of killing her at that very moment. Even if she thinks that Rand was playing by her rules--as Rand wished her to--why doesn't she run anyway? By everything that is said about her, she should have--unless she had reason to think she knew exactly what he planned. And that's the oddity here. Nothing in what Rand gave her via Ramshalan should have been strong enough proof that he intended to play with her that she would disreguard the danger of the Dragon knowing her exact location.

 

She should have run. Why didn't she?

 

Why Didn't Graendal Run?

 

The explanation I gave above serves--she would have stayed if she had reason to think she knew Rand's plans, and would be able to counter them safely. So if she didn't have enough to be certain that Rand was only going to play with her, could she instead have been expecting the attack? And if so did she have clues to lead her to the specific nature of the attack Rand intended--the balefire and the compulsion test? Firstly, we have this...

 

"I have to peer into her eyes, see into her soul, and know that it's her that I face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening her into running. How? How can I kill a foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to confront me?"

[tGS; 37, A Force of Light]

 

Whether he meant to or not, he actually lays down his desires there. Specifically he wants a way to kill Graendal before she has a chance to run, and yet ensure it leaves evidence that she did in fact die.

 

Still, that's fairly generic. If Graendal realised there was to be an attack, and only had that, I'd say she still would have run. Too many attack routes, no idea which one Rand might choose, and thus no way to be certain enough that she could foil it and survive. So is there anything that might have directed Graendal to Rand's method?

 

Why Did Rand Send Ramshalan

 

So, acting under the premise of this theory--that Graendal was looking for the attack, and planning how to oppose it--then there is a question that raises itself--why did Rand send Ramshalan? It wasn't to ensure she was there, because she could easily have travelled the second he was out the door. It only served to alert Graendal that Rand knew where she was, and thus that she was in danger--which raises the chance that she would flee, one of the two things Rand stated in front of Ramshalan that he wished to forestall.

 

So if this violated one of Rand's desires, logically would it not being doing so in order to serve the second. In effect it points out, should Graendal have been looking for the attack, that Ramshalan was to serve as the proof of her death.

 

The Stepping Stone To Rands Plans: Compulsion and Balefire

 

That idea that Ramshalan was sent to become the proof of her death opens up the plan. What would be assured if Rand sent Ramshalan to Graedal--she'd compel him. How would that serve as proof of her death? It gives Rand a recent piece of her work to test should she be balefired--and how unlikely would it be for her to consider that Rand would use balefire on her? Not very--he's used it before; it's highly destructive and cannot be shielded against, which fulfils his requirements that he be able to kill her before she can run.

 

Of course, predicting balefire as the weapon, and predicting that he'd balefire the entire palace are two different things. However it has been pointed out that Graendal was charged with making psychological warfare on Rand--that would necessitate studying him, which would mean that she would have a very, very good understanding of what how far he was gone, and thus what he was capable of.

 

Irrespective, she needn't have actually predicted he'd balefire the palace. She could have made a decoy masked in illusion for him to personally balefire. For her to have lived we don't need for her to have guessed everything, just enough, and once Graendal began preparing to meet an attack its next to impossible she didn't consider the possibility of balefire--this is a woman who used human blood on her letters to Inturalde despite doubting any Third Ager could tell the difference between human and animal blood--she fills her plans with redundancies.

 

Defeating The Compulsion Test

 

An Unravelling Web

 

The first method I've seen suggested for how she might achieve this is in having tied off the web so it could unravel on its own. There is the question of why Ramshalan is completely undamaged, but then Nynaeve states that this web is lighter, or more subtle.

 

"Yes. Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

 

Graendal knows everything there is to know about Compulsion, and she would know how to place a compulsion that could unravel without harming the individual. It likely wouldn't be as effective in the purpose of compelling Ramshalan, but then the suggested purpose here wasn't compelling Ramshalan, but deceiving Rand.

 

Of course this raises the question of timing. How did Graendal set the weave to unravel at precisely the moment that Rand balefired the palace? I've seen three answers to this: The first is that she held a inverted web which she released when she saw the palace destroyed, thereby unravelling the web. The second option is that she set the web to unravel after being delved--this is a reasonably logical idea--if Graendal perceived the compulsion would be the test, then she'd perceive it would be tested twice. Before and after. They test it before, the compulsion dissolved, Rand balefires, and then they test it again and what do you know--all gone.

 

The third option is that she set the weave to unravel in the face of balefire. We know from [KoD; 3, In The Gardens] that Graendal has at least some understanding of what the effects of disturbances in the pattern can be, so it’s not impossible she set the weave up to collapse in the face of the warping that resulted from the use of balefire. Note that Nynaeve says that "There are a lot of weaves here", and that she clearly doesn't understand them all. One could easily be designed to trigger and unravel in the face of the pattern rippling.

 

Channeler Sacrificed

 

The second explanation for the disappearance of the compulsion runs that Graendal either trained another woman and let her weave the compulsion, or else linked with her and used only her power to weave the compulsion (something we know to be possible from both the a'dam, and Narishma in [WH; 54, With the Choedan Kal]). I suspect if either is the case then the latter is more likely given the skill displayed in the compulsion.

 

After that Graendal chucks a runner, and leaves the hapless woman to her fate (likely disguised by Mirror of Mists as Graendal in case of an attack, with compelled commands to ensure she dies satisfactorily at Rand's hands), thereby successfully convincing Rand he's succeeded in killing her, when in fact he has only killed a decoy. In some ways it could be said he gave her the idea himself.

 

Of course this raises the problem of where Graendal came by a channeler so swiftly. I've seen two ideas suggested. One, chronologically this occurs after Aran'gar and Delana flee the rebels. Given Aran'gar's new alliance with Graendal (which Graendal helpfully mentions in the prologue), its not inconceivable that she sought out Graendal after fleeing, and that it is Delana who gets supernuked by Rand.

 

Two, Graendal gathers the powerful and the beautiful. It's not inconceivable then that she has snagged an Aes Sedai, Wise One, Windfinder or Ayyad. The woman herself would be under heavy compulsion, but that doesn't stop you channeling as far as we know, and women gain none of the protections from compulsion that men gain from saidin, so it wouldn't be a risk for Graendal to keep one under the level of compulsion she places on her pets.

 

Conclusions

 

In conclusion, that she did not run in the beginning is strange, and does indicate she thought she knew precisely what was going to occur, and thought she could deal with it. In contradiction to that, what Ramshalan told her seems to contain little in the way of proof that Rand merely meant to play with her, as Rand suggests was her deduction. Thus the fact that she did not run is a problem. From there Ramshalan's presence and knowledge could well have guided her to figuring out the specific nature of the assault.

 

Ultimately the only real evidence to suggest that the stated course of events--that she died--did not occur is in the relative oddities of her providing Rand with precisely what he wanted despite being made aware of that by Ramshalan, and that she did not run immediately upon realising Rand knew where she was. Her surviving does follow a logical progression, but by and large it is far more likely that events fell out precisely as they appeared to, and Graendal is dead.

 

 

But I'm calling her being alive. ToM comes soon...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I believe she is dead for exactly the same reason Rand believes she is dead. There is no way in heck that she thought Rand would balefire the entire palace. She knows that in the past he has not wanted to kill innocents. I think the scope of his attack was unthinkable to her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe she is dead for exactly the same reason Rand believes she is dead. There is no way in heck that she thought Rand would balefire the entire palace. She knows that in the past he has not wanted to kill innocents. I think the scope of his attack was unthinkable to her.

 

Oh, there is no way that one of the worlds most gifted psychological analysts could have, after a month of direct study (as per Moridin's instructions), percieved the unstable nature of Rand's psyche, and deduced the possibility of him balefiring the palace? Not even though, as a survivor of the War of the Power she had lived through such uses of balefire before?

 

Alright, say that's the case... so what? Her surviving in no way requires she predict that he'd balefire the palace. It merely requires that she guess, based on Ramshalan's directives and her own well known use of compulsion that he'd be seeking to employ balefire, whilst relying on the use of compulsion as proof of the balefire's success.

 

She could easily have planned for balefire without planning the scope of his assualt. Mirror of Mists provides easily for this scenario--and Graendal is nothing if not a planner who utilizes redundency.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, there is no way that one of the worlds most gifted psychological analysts could have, after a month of direct study (as per Moridin's instructions), percieved the unstable nature of Rand's psyche, and deduced the possibility of him balefiring the palace? Not even though, as a survivor of the War of the Power she had lived through such uses of balefire before?

 

Alright, say that's the case... so what? Her surviving in no way requires she predict that he'd balefire the palace. It merely requires that she guess, based on Ramshalan's directives and her own well known use of compulsion that he'd be seeking to employ balefire, whilst relying on the use of compulsion as proof of the balefire's success.

 

She could easily have planned for balefire without planning the scope of his assualt. Mirror of Mists provides easily for this scenario--and Graendal is nothing if not a planner who utilizes redundency.

So you think that once Ramalamadingdong showed up, she bolted? Could be. My thoughts are that the scope of the attack is so horrifying, that it wasn't even in anybody's (besides Rand's) thought process. Heck, it blew my mind when he did it. How could she have known what would happen to Rand after the Semirhage incident? I kind of hope she did survive, as she is an awesome character. However, I believe that she didn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you think that once Ramalamadingdong showed up, she bolted? Could be. My thoughts are that the scope of the attack is so horrifying, that it wasn't even in anybody's (besides Rand's) thought process. Heck, it blew my mind when he did it. How could she have known what would happen to Rand after the Semirhage incident? I kind of hope she did survive, as she is an awesome character. However, I believe that she didn't.

 

Firstly, no I do not think she just bolted--did you read the original post. It is that she did not immediately bolt that is proof that she percieved something deeper was occuring--something which she felt very capable of handling. And I'm sorry, but Rand's explanation of 'sitting at a table ready to play' just doesn't hold flack--it would have been a stretch even without Ramshalan there to explain carefully what Rand intended.

 

And again, she needn't have percieved the scope of the attack to have addequetly countered it. Furthermore, such attacks were occured during the War of the Shadow--though it was horrifying by modern standards, Graendal had lived through such things before. They were not beyond the scope of her experience.

 

As for knowing what happened to Rand after the Semirhage incident--over a week passed between the incident with Semirhage and the events at Natrin's Barrow, and Graendal's network of spies is cited to be great. She had plenty of time to learn of Rand's new disposition--indeed to think that she didn't know given her field of expertise and her current specific mission of making Rand know emotional pain is absurd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, no I do not think she just bolted--did you read the original post. It is that she did not immediately bolt that is proof that she percieved something deeper was occuring--something which she felt very capable of handling. And I'm sorry, but Rand's explanation of 'sitting at a table ready to play' just doesn't hold flack--it would have been a stretch even without Ramshalan there to explain carefully what Rand intended.

 

And again, she needn't have percieved the scope of the attack to have addequetly countered it. Furthermore, such attacks were occured during the War of the Shadow--though it was horrifying by modern standards, Graendal had lived through such things before. They were not beyond the scope of her experience.

 

As for knowing what happened to Rand after the Semirhage incident--over a week passed between the incident with Semirhage and the events at Natrin's Barrow, and Graendal's network of spies is cited to be great. She had plenty of time to learn of Rand's new disposition--indeed to think that she didn't know given her field of expertise and her current specific mission of making Rand know emotional pain is absurd.

I'm not saying your theory lacks merit, I just don't agree with it. I hope you're right as Graendal may then be able to follow through on her orders and kill Elayne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not saying your theory lacks merit, I just don't agree with it. I hope you're right as Graendal may then be able to follow through on her orders and kill Elayne.

 

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just curious to explore this concept: "There is no way in heck that she thought Rand would balefire the entire palace."

 

I just don't understand why a woman who lived through entire cities being balefired out of existence could be expected not to be aware of the possibility. I mean the woman was studying Rand's emotional state specifically, she had a week (ten days--well, eleven actually, but a WoT week is closest) after Semirhage messed him up to study Dark Rand...

 

I'm just curious to learn why you think this is solid reasoning for her to have died? Personally I think the weakest part of my argument is the compulsion test. Her expecting balefire, to me, is a given. He's used it before and heck, its even possible Moridin alerted her to the fact that Rand now knew it was the only way to kill Forsaken. I think she could have predicted the scope--but it's irrelevent either way so long as she predicted balefire in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just curious to explore this concept: "There is no way in heck that she thought Rand would balefire the entire palace."

 

I just don't understand why a woman who lived through entire cities being balefired out of existence could be expected not to be aware of the possibility. I mean the woman was studying Rand's emotional state specifically, she had a week (ten days--well, eleven actually, but a WoT week is closest) after Semirhage messed him up to study Dark Rand...

 

I'm just curious to learn why you think this is solid reasoning for her to have died? Personally I think the weakest part of my argument is the compulsion test. Her expecting balefire, to me, is a given. He's used it before and heck, its even possible Moridin alerted her to the fact that Rand now knew it was the only way to kill Forsaken. I think she could have predicted the scope--but it's irrelevent either way so long as she predicted balefire in general.

I agree that she would expect balefire, just not the entire palace. I don't think she believes Rand has the heart (or lack thereof) to balefire the entire palace and everyone in it. Assuming she knows of the major events of the story, then she knows that Rand let Moiraine "die" because he couldn't kill a woman. She knows it pains him when innocents die as a result of his actions. She even knows it pains him to kill those who wronged him (Colavere?). I assume that when Rama showed up, she compulsed him and thought "Let the games begin" but Rand just nuked the whole stadium. I'm banking on the fact that she assumes that Rand isn't emotionally capable of the act.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm on the fence. I agree that Aran'gar and Delana probally fled to Graendal. Many reasons I won't go into here but top was Aran'gar and Graendals' allience. So maybe Graendal trained Delana in compulsion so she would be useful to her (given the forsakens' opinion that all modern AS are useless) with a compulsion to keep Delana from using her new weaves against Graendal.

 

But, there is no way she could have expected a balefire H-bomb. Yes, she studied Rand quite closely but she still thinks of him as LTT, I remember and argument between her and Sammy on the subject because most forsaken think/thought of him as LTT except for Asmo and Sammy. So she may have studied him but she also still had the Forsaken Profile of LTT from the War of Power (she probably created it) so she "knew" what LTT was capable of bringing himself to do and what he would never do. LTT started screaming at Rand when he started the balefire.

 

So I don't think she could have predicted the attack in that matter, maybe an armed assault with soldiers, AM, and AS gated in but not a BF carpetbombing because LTT would do the first but not the second. (I personally think that was how Sammy got his scar from LTT. LTT led a strike force at the rear of Sammy's assault and the two fought blade to blade, but I have no proof I just think it sounds cool.)

 

And lastly considering the "left no body argument"

Forsaken who have left a body (in order):

Bathemal

Aginor

Ishy

 

Forsaken with no body found (in order):

Be'lal

Rhavin

Lanfear

Asmodean

Sammy

Semi

 

The ones with a body didn't stay dead and only Lanfear came from the "no body left behind" catagory (but I have a different theory on that) and before you give the balefire argument remember Asmodean and Sammy weren't bf'ed (Rand let some bf down to make sure he got Sammy but he was killed but the mashadar) RJ has said those two are dead dead, not coming back. So given the track record leaving a corpse assures us that she would be back.

 

Rand killed Ishy twice before the final showdown in tDR and he came back both time in his original body.

Edited by Kaznen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, I'm not sure Graendal knows his intentions. Ramshalan is a fool and he can only tell Graendal what he believes. He accepts Rand's orders at face value. I don't think it's obvious that Graendal would go into detail over how he arrived there. She asks him who he is and what he's doing there and he simply repeats Rand's words. I would have thought at this point she would have moved onto more general intelligence re: Rand. If she found out that Rand personally opened the gateway to send him then maybe it becomes suspicious, but yeah I don't see it as clear-cut that Graendal has any clue that Rand is even directly involved.

 

Second, it is definitely stretching it to suggest the web was tied off. We know from tGS prologue that it is irreversible: "once a man had know that level of Compulsion, there was no way to recover him." Your own quote states that the compulsion was "heavy." The sacrificed channeler theory can't be immediately debunked, however if we think it through logically you can see it doesn't make sense. Assuming Grandael typically Compels people herself, for this to make sense she would have had to do the first compulsion, figure out through intense questioning that Rand intends to kill her and use Compulsion as proof, and then decide to get rid of the Compulsion and have someone else Compel him as a decoy. Forgetting the fact that it's absurd for her to have figured out this plan, by removing her Compulsion Ramshalan's mind would have been destroyed. The only way for this to work is if her default move is for her proxy to Compel someone first, and there's no reason whatsoever to think this would be the case. She enjoys doing it, why on Earth would she order someone else to do it for no cause?

 

Finally, I just don't see what purpose it serves to keep her alive. With all respect to Graendal-followers, there's a whole lot of writing to fit into the remaining two books without pulling some Gandalf stunt on a character that has had a largely peripheral role for most of the series and doesn't appear to have duties left unfulfilled that couldn't easily be assumed by other Forsaken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note: Before I said that she died, but in defending the 'Could she had lived' catagory, I've convinced myself that she lived.

 

Did Graendal Die?

 

Given we never saw a body, and Brandon refused to confirm whether or not she died, it was expectable that people would start theorising about her potentially living--but is there any reason to do so beyond simple nostalgia?

Or Brandon was just so shocked by the request for confirmation that he decided to have some fun and see how far and how long this will go?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand has previously stated that the only weapon to be used against the forsaken is balefire. We know that the shadow has tons of spies and there are theories that either bair or sorilea is a darkfriend. I dont doubt that Graendel has retained that information and knows that Rand intends to use that very weave to kill forsaken with. Add that together with the extremely dark nature of Rand I dont think its very far fetched at all to believe that Graendel could suspect/fear an attack of that magnitude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m sure I remember that when someone asked Brandon about the Graendal issue, referencing the chapter, he made a comment along the lines of ‘A woman died there…’ There was some ambiguity over whether he was stating that or asking a question back, but if it was a statement, it seems to support the idea that e.g. Delana got hung out to dry while Graendal scooted off safely.

 

I also wonder why the Graendal / Aran’gar alliance got introduced if it was never going to lead anywhere. Although it wouldn’t be the first time this happened – think of some of the subplots hinted at in the whole Caemlyn / Black Ajah / Andor throne storyline that all seem to have disappeared without meaningful resolution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that she would expect balefire, just not the entire palace. I don't think she believes Rand has the heart (or lack thereof) to balefire the entire palace and everyone in it.

 

Even though she, one of the Age of Legends stated best psychologists, had been directly studying Rand's emotional state at that time?

 

I assume that when Rama showed up, she compulsed him and thought "Let the games begin" but Rand just nuked the whole stadium. I'm banking on the fact that she assumes that Rand isn't emotionally capable of the act

 

Under what basis do you assume that? This is a woman who used real human blood in a decoy letter even though she was certain no one in the Third Age could tell the difference between human and pig blood. This is a woman who secured the rulers of an Empire in order for one casual misdirect in a conversation with Sammael. Graendal employs redundency at all points--by what basis do you assume that she simple became an idiot this time round?

 

But, there is no way she could have expected a balefire H-bomb.

 

I see no basis for this. I mean consider your reference--the H-bomb. The reason it wasn't expected was because destruction on that level was unknown--impossible. Except The Forsaken lived through cities being balefired. Now look at the Cold War--did anyone there, having known Hiroshima, not consider the possibility?

 

I mean the analogy was perfect, people knew the threat but having lived it they feared it. That people stopped because of the effects never stopped their awareness of the threat of balefire. Consider Rahvin: "Graendal's face contorted, and Rahvin prepared to shield himself against whatever the two women might hurl at one another, prepared to Travel at even a whiff of balefire."

 

Graendal had the experience. She had no reason not to consider a H-bomb balefire, and every reason to consider. She directly studied him, knew his emotional state, his desperation.

 

And, once again--it is irrelevant. She did not need to predict that he would balefire the entire palace, merely that he would use balefire in order that the reversion of her compulsion prove her death--and that I covered. As long as she predicted balefire in general, the argument that she survived is perfectly valid.

 

Yes, she studied Rand quite closely but she still thinks of him as LTT, I remember and argument between her and Sammy on the subject because most forsaken think/thought of him as LTT except for Asmo and Sammy. So she may have studied him but she also still had the Forsaken Profile of LTT from the War of Power (she probably created it) so she "knew" what LTT was capable of bringing himself to do and what he would never do. LTT started screaming at Rand when he started the balefire.

 

Her point in that argument was not that he was Lews Therin, but that he was as dangerous as Lews Therin. Graendal educated the other Forsaken on the fact that Rand heard Lews Therin's memories--which intrinsically involves her understanding of the distinction between Rand and Lews Therin.

 

Besides, that's rediculous--you argue the breadth and depth of her psychological perception as the point for her not perceiving the breadth and depth of Rand's psychosis... If she could analyse Lews Therin she can analyse Rand. And it doesn't really take much to go--oh look, Rand's used balefire before, might he possibly use it again? For once again she needn't have predicted the full scope of the attack.

 

First off, I'm not sure Graendal knows his intentions. Ramshalan is a fool and he can only tell Graendal what he believes.

 

No, Ramshalan can tell her what he heard.

 

Second, it is definitely stretching it to suggest the web was tied off. We know from tGS prologue that it is irreversible: "once a man had know that level of Compulsion, there was no way to recover him." Your own quote states that the compulsion was "heavy."

 

Incorrect. Nynaeve directly states that the compulsion was weaker than that upon the Chandler boy, and we see Graendal use compulsion in questioning with Moghedian and Graendal to no detrimental effect even after it was released--for that matter we know she has done so many, many times with visiting nobles to no detrimental effect, including Inturalde. The type of compulsion which you are speaking of is that utilized against her pets, which was precisely what she considered doing with Moridin's messanger--but not whats she does in questioning people.

 

Put clearly, her questioning him was not a deep enough compulsion to cause lasting effects. Once the web was released he would have been fine--as say, Nynaeve and Elayne were after Moghedian had her way with them.

 

The sacrificed channeler theory can't be immediately debunked, however if we think it through logically you can see it doesn't make sense. Assuming Grandael typically Compels people herself, for this to make sense she would have had to do the first compulsion, figure out through intense questioning that Rand intends to kill her and use Compulsion as proof, and then decide to get rid of the Compulsion and have someone else Compel him as a decoy. Forgetting the fact that it's absurd for her to have figured out this plan, by removing her Compulsion Ramshalan's mind would have been destroyed. The only way for this to work is if her default move is for her proxy to Compel someone first, and there's no reason whatsoever to think this would be the case. She enjoys doing it, why on Earth would she order someone else to do it for no cause?

 

Your argument is intrinsically fallacious based on your misunderstanding of compulsion.

 

Finally, I just don't see what purpose it serves to keep her alive. With all respect to Graendal-followers, there's a whole lot of writing to fit into the remaining two books without pulling some Gandalf stunt on a character that has had a largely peripheral role for most of the series and doesn't appear to have duties left unfulfilled that couldn't easily be assumed by other Forsaken.

 

I can see very many purposes for Graendal--she is one of the only capable Forsaken. If the threat of the Shadow is to be maintained at all the Forsaken must have some successes--and they've had next to none, in the long run.

 

In addition it serves a point about the detrimental effects Rand's mental state, much like the failures with Arad Domon, Tuon and the Borderlanders.

 

Or Brandon was just so shocked by the request for confirmation that he decided to have some fun and see how far and how long this will go?

 

Read what I wrote again. I was actually being dismissive of the whole concept that Brandon's refusal to confirm Graendal's death served any manner of point. I in fact sought to get past such assumptions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luckers, the Almighty Answerer Suffering No Question :D

 

She will be dead somewhen, and will be alive according to ToM chronology. That is all there is to say :)

 

On a serious note, I agree with Luckers on the Balefire expectation on Graendal's part.

 

And no need for the Proxy to weave the first Complusion. Graendal could have woven the first, drawn every information out of Ramshalan, without tying the weave, and then link and weave the second Compulsion, more subtle according to Nynaeve. (the difference certainly laying in the difficulties of instructions implanted in the weave/the unraveling of the web following special requirements).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luckers, the Almighty Answerer Suffering No Question

 

I don't mind people questioning me, but I will give answers where they're due. Though here I more questioned assumptions.

 

She will be dead somewhen

 

Unless she lived, and the Dark One winds, and upholds his promise of immortality. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, Ramshalan can tell her what he heard.

You're missing the point. Of course Ramshalan will answer any questions put to him. What I'm saying is that there is no reason for the questioning to go beyond "Who are you?" and "What are you doing here?" at which point Ramshalan would answer (truthfully according to him) that he is "offer[ing] ... rewards for allegiance." At this point there is no reason for Graendal to even assume anything sinister. Perhaps she asked him to speak in depth about any conversations he has had with Rand at which point it would become highly suspicious and the theory you've outlined becomes somewhat plausible. But it's by no means certain that she wouldn't take his claims that he is Rand's emissary searching out Domani nobles at face value. So to say "Through Ramshalan she knows that Rand not only knows precisely where she is, but is thinking about the possibility of killing her at that very moment" is a huge leap of faith right from the start.

 

Now at this point you might say: "Of course she'll ask the right questions and get the full story out of him, it's Graendal." WOT is littered with the corpses of Forsaken with similarly vaunted reputations. I don't see listing Graendal's credentials as compelling evidence at all.

 

Even if Graendal does get the entire story out of Ramshalan I don't see why she would first make the link that Rand intends to use Ramshalan as proof of death. If she discovers that Rand knows where she is and intends to kill her the most natural thing for her to do is run immediately. Why not suspect Ramshalan has been sent as a decoy to distract her while Rand approaches? Maybe Rand could be using Ramshalan as a weapon somehow. That definitely seems more logical than assuming he's going to wait for Ramshalan to return then balefire her. Also, for her to think that Rand intends to use balefire and Ramshalan as proof she must know that 1) Rand is waiting right outside her palace or 2) he is slightly further away but intends to balefire the entire palace. If she knows 1) do you really think she is going to set up some elaborate ploy to convince Rand she's dead when she's not for potentially not much advantage. I mean if she had just killed Ramshalan and fled, then Rand (in her mind) might not have even confirmed she was there in the first place. How much does setting up this ruse even gain her? And if it's 2) then she still expects Rand to be coming within an hour or two, and you have already admitted that is a leap of faith to assume she knows he is going to balefire the entire palace. Bottom line, if she knows Rand intends to kill her with balefire, she knows he means to act imminently.

Incorrect. Nynaeve directly states that the compulsion was weaker than that upon the Chandler boy, and we see Graendal use compulsion in questioning with Moghedian and Graendal to no detrimental effect even after it was released--for that matter we know she has done so many, many times with visiting nobles to no detrimental effect, including Inturalde. The type of compulsion which you are speaking of is that utilized against her pets, which was precisely what she considered doing with Moridin's messanger--but not whats she does in questioning people.

 

Put clearly, her questioning him was not a deep enough compulsion to cause lasting effects. Once the web was released he would have been fine--as say, Nynaeve and Elayne were after Moghedian had her way with them.

The exact quote reads: "he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle." There's no way you can interpret this quote as saying the Compulsion was "light" or even substantially lighter than the chandler. For your theory to work Graendal would have had to have dragged the entire story out of Ramshalan against his will. Comparing that to the Compulsion used by Moghedien on the girls is ridiculous. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that the Compulsion would not cause lasting effects.

 

I'd also note re: the sacrificed channeler theory that if the Compulsion used on Ramshalan was "maybe just more subtle" than that used on the apprentice then this is further evidence that it was Graendal herself doing the Compulsion. Unless you're suggesting that it was her slave that did the Compulsion on the apprentice as well. Or that she's trained her slave to be even better at Compulsion than she herself is?

 

I can see very many purposes for Graendal--she is one of the only capable Forsaken. If the threat of the Shadow is to be maintained at all the Forsaken must have some successes--and they've had next to none, in the long run.

Of course she could serve a purpose. But any other Forsaken could easily fulfil the same purpose for the rest of the book. People are not going to look back at this series and say it would have been different had Graendal not been killed off. Can you even see space for more than 2 Graendal (on her own) chapters over the last 2 books? We already have TOM's major plotlines worked out and Graendal is involved in none of them. Sure, she could work alongside the other Forsaken in the last battle, but from an author's perspective, is that really worth having to write like 10 pages of backstory to justify the resurrection in the first place.

In addition it serves a point about the detrimental effects Rand's mental state, much like the failures with Arad Domon, Tuon and the Borderlanders.

This is a valid point but I'm sure Rand is already going to be kicking himself enough after screwing up, as you noted, Arad Domon, Tuon, the Borderlanders and almost killing his dad and being a general douchebag to everyone he cares about. I don't think having Graendal survive is necesssary to confirm that CrazyRand is not the way to do business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a link, Graendal could weave the Compulson through the linked person, and then release the link. The Compulsion still holds, and if the Balefire is strong enough, it will erase the thread of the proxy back enough for the link not to have been made in the first place, and Graendal will be safe.

 

For the Compulsion, Sammael states that Graendal often use Compulsion as a hammer, but she can use it wisely when necessary. Kerb didn't seemed to be under Compulsion, and if he died, it is because of the tightness of the Compulsion put on him. For questionning, the amount of Compulsion needed is far less demanding, as you don't have to put many possible action to respond to different events. Moggy can use Compulsion without altering Elayne and Nynaeve spirit, why couldn't Graendal? Because she use it to puppet people? She does it with handsome people. To add them to her collection.

 

And also, it doesn't matter that the Compulsion feels different. It indicates that the purpose is different than the one put on the Chandler's apprentice. Maybe woven by someone else, which points toward Graendal being alive.

 

And it is the easiest to assume that in no time Graendal extracted all she wanted to know fim Ramshalan. The first question could be "who sent you?" To be sure he doesn't come from one of the other Forsaken. To whch he would respond "the Lord Dragon". And then she will drag every word spoken by Rand since they met. It's Graendal...

 

For me, every point has a point.

 

@Luckers : well, maybe not now, but in another turning perhaps! And I guess she will be balefired before the end of the serie. But even if she died in A Force of Light, she will be alive at the beginning of ToM. And before he can resurect her, the DO will have to wait for her reincarnation if Balefired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a link, Graendal could weave the Compulson through the linked person, and then release the link. The Compulsion still holds, and if the Balefire is strong enough, it will erase the thread of the proxy back enough for the link not to have been made in the first place, and Graendal will be safe.

 

For the Compulsion, Sammael states that Graendal often use Compulsion as a hammer, but she can use it wisely when necessary. Kerb didn't seemed to be under Compulsion, and if he died, it is because of the tightness of the Compulsion put on him. For questionning, the amount of Compulsion needed is far less demanding, as you don't have to put many possible action to respond to different events. Moggy can use Compulsion without altering Elayne and Nynaeve spirit, why couldn't Graendal? Because she use it to puppet people? She does it with handsome people. To add them to her collection.

 

And also, it doesn't matter that the Compulsion feels different. It indicates that the purpose is different than the one put on the Chandler's apprentice. Maybe woven by someone else, which points toward Graendal being alive.

 

And it is the easiest to assume that in no time Graendal extracted all she wanted to know fim Ramshalan. The first question could be "who sent you?" To be sure he doesn't come from one of the other Forsaken. To whch he would respond "the Lord Dragon". And then she will drag every word spoken by Rand since they met. It's Graendal...

 

For me, every point has a point.

 

@Luckers : well, maybe not now, but in another turning perhaps! And I guess she will be balefired before the end of the serie. But even if she died in A Force of Light, she will be alive at the beginning of ToM. And before he can resurect her, the DO will have to wait for her reincarnation if Balefired.

Why would Graendal need a link to perform a simple (for her) compulsion?

 

Could Graendal have survived? Yes, because we didn't actually see her get hit. But all evidence is that she is gone.

 

But the disappearing compulsion on Ramshalan is sufficient evidence that Graendal was burnt. She has no reason to link to perform it. She has no reason to have someone else use compulsion for her.

 

And in order to learn of the need, she would have had to already fiddle with Ramshalan's mind, so it is too late to undo the damage.

 

If Graendal suspected Rand was going to unleash that level of force against her, she would've grabbed Ramshalan, Traveled away with him to get more info, and not returned to the fortress until the Dragon was dead (if ever). Graendal is very risk averse, she already ruined Ramshalan (shy of balefiring herself anyway) so it was too late to set up a red herring for the Dragon. Her best move would've been to flee.

 

But Ramshalan got better, therefore...

 

Graendal is dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. If Ramshalan didn't came back, Rand would have made nothing. She had orders to bring Rand pain of heart.

 

I don't understand the "too late to undo the damage" damage on Ramshalan's mind? It is not the same level of Compulsion. So Ramshalan mind shall not have suffered from the questioning.

 

There are three Compulsion :

- simple : questioning someone (moggy with Elayne and Nyn, Liandrin, etc...)

- middle : make someone do as the weaver want (Verin)

- heavy : make someone as a puppet (Graendal, maybe Taim)

 

The simpler it is, the less damage it leaves on the person mind.

 

And if Graendal followed the order and knew Rand would unleash such a force on her fortress, or less, she would have used a link to lure him into believing she was here anyway. And so he would balefire the palace.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember, in LoC, when Sammy was visiting Graendal she kept referring to Rand as Lews Therin. Most of the other forsaken do. Sammy even snapped at her for doing so saying that Lews Therin is dead, Rand Al'Thor is not LTT.

 

He then thought he wish LTT had left a grave so he could spit on it. I remember this because I thought "Well, Dragonmount is his grave."

 

Remember when Semi used the S'A'D' braclets on Rand she didn't call him Rand she called him Lews Therin.

 

That was the biggest problem the forsaken have dealing with Rand, he is not LTT.

 

In AoL both sides used balefire to destroy whole cities. When they saw the damage done to the pattern they both stopped. No agreement between the two sides. Remember Demedred(?)'s reaction when the DO asked if he would use balefire. They may know "Rand Therin" is willing to use balefire for a personal kill but not full force back by the CK. That was unthinkable to them they never thought LTT would have the stones to do so.

 

Besides, that much would have balefired Graendal back to the AoL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if Grandael thought of Rand as LTT, an accomplished psychologist as herself would recognize the growing instability in him dating back three thousand years ago when he killed his wife and made Dragonmount and being under Semi's thrall would certainly not help matters. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if she disregarded the Rand persona and thought the Dragon Reborn to be entirely the personality of LTT, it'd be all the more reason to expect a reckless assault of balefire as the personality of LTT was crazed as a loon, something no other is more qualified than Grandael to judge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...