Disappointed with the Green Ajah

[Byzantine279]

You underestimate the Asha'man. Remember the shield only a few were able to make around Rand at Dumani well's? Seeing your target is only neccesary if you are uncreative. Coordinate with others and create a massive burst of "solid air" and the raken will be knocked clear out of the sky. Not only that, but they can create their own lights in the sky to see, and the damane don't know the weave to break male weaves (do they?) so they would be helpless to stop them. As such I would say that attacking the black tower would have been like jumping on the edge of a sword, just plain not a good idea.

[Random Man]

I think it all goes down to failure to plan. The rebel Aes Sedai had a coherent plan in place for the possibility of a Forsaken attack. We saw them put it into place during a bubble of evil in LoC where they linked into multiple circles quite quickly. This would have also worked well against the damane had the Seanchan attacked them instead. But the chaotic nature of things in the Tower under Elaida's rule kept any coherent defense strategies from forming. So they had no plan put in place for an Asha'man attack, or for the less-believed threat of a Seanchan raid. One would think that the Reds would have been more forceful in putting forth the need to keep the Tower safe from an Asha'man threat, but to do this would likely have called more attention to Elaida's twin disasters of Dumai's Wells and the Black Tower "invasion." Still, one would think that the Battle Ajah would have had at least the foresight to think up contingency plans for potential threats. That's just basic strategy.

 

 

BTW, I'm not really sure how the Aes Sedai would have gone about reclaiming Malkier from the Blight. Something tells me it's not just a "simple" matter of burning down a couple thousand square miles of sickly forest.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

BTW, I'm not really sure how the Aes Sedai would have gone about reclaiming Malkier from the Blight. Something tells me it's not just a "simple" matter of burning down a couple thousand square miles of sickly forest.

It took years for the blight to spread south across all of Malkier. After all plenty of land was overrun in the Trolloc Wars that was later reclaimed. 100 Green sisters with the armies of Arafel and Shienar may have been to liberate Maliker if they counter attacked immediately, the main problem is that the Malkieri army was destroyed. The Shienarans would have had to outright annex the country (Rhamdashar reborn?) and man the border forts themselves and it would have taken years to reconstruct a native defensive force. A risky proposition, and one requiring the green ajah to assist them the whole time. Basically only possible if someone competent like Cadsuane was Amyrlin and managed to avoid assassination by the BA.

[Random Man]

 

BTW, I'm not really sure how the Aes Sedai would have gone about reclaiming Malkier from the Blight. Something tells me it's not just a "simple" matter of burning down a couple thousand square miles of sickly forest.

It took years for the blight to spread south across all of Malkier. After all plenty of land was overrun in the Trolloc Wars that was later reclaimed. 100 Green sisters with the armies of Arafel and Shienar may have been to liberate Maliker if they counter attacked immediately, the main problem is that the Malkieri army was destroyed. The Shienarans would have had to outright annex the country (Rhamdashar reborn?) and man the border forts themselves and it would have taken years to reconstruct a native defensive force. A risky proposition, and one requiring the green ajah to assist them the whole time. Basically only possible if someone competent like Cadsuane was Amyrlin and managed to avoid assassination by the BA.

A risky proposition, certainly. I'd have had the back of anyone who would have proposed doing that. There's no telling whether it would even be effective, though. For one, you're talking about having to immediately repopulate an entire land. This takes time and lots of resources. The well-organized and powerful Seanchan would have had the ability to put this kind of plan in action (obviously), but not so sure about Shienar.

 

Second, would that have made a difference? Would rebuilding the border forts and bringing people back to rebuild stop the Blight's advance? I don't have that good of an understanding of how the Blight functions to answer that. Not sure anyone does yet.

 

What I do know is that it stretches credibility to think that no one tried to go back after the immediate Shadowspawn threat passed. Of course there were scouts and such, and my guess is whatever they found -- rapid blight advance, etc -- led those concerned to conclude that Malkier couldn't be saved. Or perhaps the will wasn't ever really there.

 

Interesting side note: the one Malkieri Aes Sedai we know of, Nacelle, happened to be Black Ajah.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

BTW, I'm not really sure how the Aes Sedai would have gone about reclaiming Malkier from the Blight. Something tells me it's not just a "simple" matter of burning down a couple thousand square miles of sickly forest.

It took years for the blight to spread south across all of Malkier. After all plenty of land was overrun in the Trolloc Wars that was later reclaimed. 100 Green sisters with the armies of Arafel and Shienar may have been to liberate Maliker if they counter attacked immediately, the main problem is that the Malkieri army was destroyed. The Shienarans would have had to outright annex the country (Rhamdashar reborn?) and man the border forts themselves and it would have taken years to reconstruct a native defensive force. A risky proposition, and one requiring the green ajah to assist them the whole time. Basically only possible if someone competent like Cadsuane was Amyrlin and managed to avoid assassination by the BA.

A risky proposition, certainly. I'd have had the back of anyone who would have proposed doing that. There's no telling whether it would even be effective, though. For one, you're talking about having to immediately repopulate an entire land. This takes time and lots of resources. The well-organized and powerful Seanchan would have had the ability to put this kind of plan in action (obviously), but not so sure about Shienar.

 

Second, would that have made a difference? Would rebuilding the border forts and bringing people back to rebuild stop the Blight's advance? I don't have that good of an understanding of how the Blight functions to answer that. Not sure anyone does yet.

 

What I do know is that it stretches credibility to think that no one tried to go back after the immediate Shadowspawn threat passed. Of course there were scouts and such, and my guess is whatever they found -- rapid blight advance, etc -- led those concerned to conclude that Malkier couldn't be saved. Or perhaps the will wasn't ever really there.

 

Interesting side note: the one Malkieri Aes Sedai we know of, Nacelle, happened to be Black Ajah.

Most of the population seems to have escaped due to the heroic stand of the Malkieri army so I think it's possible. The Blight only advances when the Shadow is winning it seems.

 

Most of the others had died trying to get revenge.

[Jarred Darque]

The green's failure in the WT attack was only one of the failure's of all AS.

 

I think that it has been discussed before, but even with the oaths, if the AS had kept themselves from becoming so aloof over the years, the tower would be unstoppable.

 

Station Greens along the blight, 1-2 or more in every tower. (If they started this at the start when they had plenty of AS, it would have been possible) and also a yellow for healing.

 

Put a yellow in every town, many in every city, to act as the local doctor, or at least say, one in the two rivers for example, if someone really needs serious help, they go to them. Having them local like that would keep them from being aloof, and not as feared. It would also put AS throughout the population, and would help for recruiting. This would greatly increase their numbers to what they should have had the entire time. Also, by doing this, you can actually get a number of AS offspring, furthering the channeler population.

 

reds, blues, whites, greys, browns do what they always do, kinda.

 

I know that this is a small rant a bit off topic on the failures of the idiots in charge.

 

But, yeah, the green's failed miserably in the WT attack. All that there is to say about it.

[Cut Strand]

There is a quote in the prologue of The Fires of Heaven where Elaida is fuming about not having the Amyrlin's eyes and ears. She also talks about how the ajahs have their own networks, "except for the yellows, there is nothing that can be learned of healing from those who can't channel." (Or something like that.)

 

The Yellow Ajah (as a whole) have no respect for herbalism and town healers, look at their reaction to Nynaeve using herbs as a mental focus for healing (if you don't remember, they are very mocking). Not to mention that later on the Salidar group talks about leaving soldiers injured to teach them lessons. Which is dumb when those same injuries could be used as opportunities for novices and Accepted to learn how to heal!

 

Does anyone know offhand when the Ajahs formed (in relation to when they started searing the Oaths)? I find it odd that there was a "Battle Ajah" given the Oaths they swear. The "Thy Shall Not Fry" Oath makes their existence odd. Yeah they mean to battle the Shadowspawn/Darkfriends, but it is kind of hard to practice on them.

 

But yes, we know the Aes Sedai suck.

-- Blues pursue terrible causes (Lelaine's cause is to seize power)

-- Browns spend most of their time in books (yeah that is their job, but they horde the knowledge which is worthless to the world)

-- Greens suck at battle

-- Greys suck so much they don't have any "prominent characters" on wikipedia (ouch)

-- Reds are retarded fem-****es (no Godwin's Law here)

-- Whites are highly illogical

-- Yellows are healing snobs

 

Even the Black Ajah sucks at its job. Just as a darkfriend Taim could have more than undone all of Rand's efforts by sending out "drive by" male channelers (make everyone in Randland live life on the floor), the Black Ajah could have done more damage to the Aes Sedai reputation by going around lying, blowing stuff up, and generally acting like Aes Sedai turned up to 11 (well they are already up to 11, so 22 okay that would be really annoying to read). Yeah, I get that eventually they would be hunted down like men that can channel, but it would ruin the Tower's reputation way more than "the schism" did. How many of the Black sisters got caught in Egwene's drag net without seeming to have inflicted any meaningful damage against the Aes Sedai or the world?

 

-- Edit to include thing I wrote in another thread on the failing of the Red Ajah --

Quote: It is unfair to say the Reds didn't try to deal with male channelers.

 

My response:

1. Dealing with male channelers isn't the same as dealing with the taint on saidin.

2. Aes Sedai knew about the doorway ter'angreal in Mayane. Not a single Aes Sedai thought to go through and ask:

Question 1: "What is the easiest way to cleanse the taint from saidin?"

Answer 1: "Make a giant sieve/filter with saidar then channel all of saidin through it."

 

Question 2: "How can we channel that much saidar and saidin?"

Answer 2: "You need the access keys for the Choedan Kal."

 

Question 3: "Where are these access keys Choedan Kal?"

Answer 3: "There is one of each in Rhuidean."

 

Even if they just went through to ask the first question, each answer leads to the next question. Now the questions are "where is Rhuidean?" and "can we trust a man with all of saidin?"

 

Technically Rand got info about the sieve, the access keys, and maybe even Rhuidean from one question (maybe 2 questions?). So there is really no excuse. Also, even if each Aes Sedai can only go through once to ask questions, they could send Aes Sedai in succession scripting out more questions to get the whole of the issue.

[Taymist]

I find it odd that there was a "Battle Ajah" given the Oaths they swear. The "Thy Shall Not Fry" Oath makes their existence odd. Yeah they mean to battle the Shadowspawn/Darkfriends, but it is kind of hard to practice on them.

 

There's nothing odd about it. They were created as the Green Ajah not the Battle Ajah. They were given the name of Battle Ajah following the Trolloc Wars when the Sisters countered the Dreadlords using the OP. (TDR,Ch23) That was before the Oaths were adopted, which happened between the Trolloc Wars and the 100 Years War.

 

Also, as someone already mentioned, the Oaths have little to do with it. It's all about belief and/or perception. If they believe their lives are in danger then they can channel. If they feel threatened, they can channel. Clearly if they're stuck in the middle of a battle with Dreadlords and Shadowspawn, they'll be channeling all over with no difficulty.

 

The issue at the WT with the Seanchan attack wasn't about their Oaths either. It was about surprise, custom and disarray.

 

i) The Seanchan had massive surprise on their side, don't underestimate that. Even people with a ton of practice in any skill can freeze up or panic when the moment is upon them. There's no sign that the Greens actually drill at all as we'd expect soldiers to do. There's no ingrained habit to obey anyone. Even with their own Head, Sitters or the Amyrlin, it can be a close run thing. Sisters are nothing if not independant and certainly have plenty of arrogance/pride.

 

ii) They haven't, as has been said, really fought any actual battles since the Trolloc Wars. And even knowing what they know about Talents resurfacing, nobody has ever defeated the WT or broken her walls. Heaven forbid. The AS were ridiculously sure of their superiority and secure position. They've been unchallenged for a very long time. Additionally, the Green as they are now, appear to be tacticians not fighters. Studying battle tactics from history books is not the same as physically facing a large, well organised invading force. Having the knowledge but not the experience of practical application as it were.

 

iii) Whether spread by Elaida, Mesaana or Black Sisters, suspicion was and is rife throughout the Tower. Not only between each Ajah but also within each Ajah. Organising any kind of co-ordinated defense under those circumstances is nigh on impossible. Who's going to trust anyone else?

[Sagacious Lu]

My response:

1. Dealing with male channelers isn't the same as dealing with the taint on saidin.

2. Aes Sedai knew about the doorway ter'angreal in Mayane. Not a single Aes Sedai thought to go through and ask:

Question 1: "What is the easiest way to cleanse the taint from saidin?"

Answer 1: "Make a giant sieve/filter with saidar then channel all of saidin through it."

 

Question 2: "How can we channel that much saidar and saidin?"

Answer 2: "You need the access keys for the Choedan Kal."

 

Question 3: "Where are these access keys Choedan Kal?"

Answer 3: "There is one of each in Rhuidean."

 

Even if they just went through to ask the first question, each answer leads to the next question. Now the questions are "where is Rhuidean?" and "can we trust a man with all of saidin?"

 

Technically Rand got info about the sieve, the access keys, and maybe even Rhuidean from one question (maybe 2 questions?). So there is really no excuse. Also, even if each Aes Sedai can only go through once to ask questions, they could send Aes Sedai in succession scripting out more questions to get the whole of the issue.

 

They couldn't have used the ter'angreal that way because questions that deal with the shadow are forbidden. Doing so would have been disastrous for the questioner. It makes me wonder what question(s) they asked about the shadow before they realised it was a bad idea; it might be that they did try this before they knew.

[Frostmuse]

One thing in the Green Ajah's defence (there aren't many points, but it bears pointing out) is that the Green sisters who take their mission seriously, seek out the shadow and go there to do battle rather than wait for the shadow to come to them, like Cadsuane, aren't in the Tower. Tower essentially contains the "I have nothing better to do." sisters. My favourite source for "where's the Aes Sedai?" hasn't been updated for quite some time, but last I checked around tPoD there were about ~200 sisters who hadn't bothered to return to the Tower for any given reason. Some would be in retirement (and/or dead), some went "Elaida who?" but some might actually be busy doing stuff. That we haven't seen Green sisters along the blight border doesn't mean there aren't any, since we haven't seen a lot from the blight border at all. It's a big border and not that many Aes Sedai to go around.