Post TG Nations

[Luckers]

I am SO bored at work, and I haven't seen this discussed in a while, so I figured I'd throw it out there again.

 

Here's what I think. The Seanchan will retain what they've taken, and probably take Arad Domon as well. I reckon Fortuona will place Interulde in charge of Arad Domon, and he'll give her his loyalty for bringing peace and order back to the nation after Rand so failed him. The Seanchan will be the Western Coast Nation.

 

Elayne will take Cairhein--and I'm thinking possibly Murandy as well, given I think Rhoedan is under Demandred's thumb, and therefore will need to be removed. This will be the Central Nation. It will probably over time roll up to include the lands Cairhein once claimed.

 

Perrin will retain Ghealdin, and hold Saldaea. Over time Andor west of Whitebridge will end up under him, as will the Caralain Grass, which I suspect will be repopulated in the days to come. I'm not suggesting here that Perrin will 'conquer' this area, but that in the chaos to come Elayne will not be able to treat it as she should, and Perrin will be forced to step in--not the least to hold it against Seanchan incursion. Over time its alleigence will shift to Perrin's nation. It'll probably cause some arguments, but by the time it comes to that, it will be a part of Perrin's nation. This nation will not be called Manetheren. The Wheel rolls forward, not back.

 

The Borderlands may remain as they are or be wiped out, but one idea I like is that Lan and Nynaeve (or Nynaeve and their child as I sadly do not expect Lan to survive TG) will create a new nation of what had been Arafel, Kandor and Shienar--out of necesity. I think the Borderlands are going to be decimated, and Lan will be the only thing around to stabalize them--and that they will feel they were abandoned by their rulers and saved by Lan, and thus their loyalty will shift to him. The rulers I suspect will be wiped out in ToM. This will be the Northern Nation, and over time will creep south to include what was Harden. It will not be called Malkier. The Wheel rolls forward, not back.

 

Illian, Far Madding, Tear and Mayene - may remain as they are. Alternatively I've seen it suggested they have to be conquered by Seanchan to fulfil the Aelfinn's prophecy. This would leave Seanchan in control of the entire coast though. The third idea is that they form some sort of southern alliance in order to place themselves at similar strength to the other new nations. Whatever happens, Stepeneos will regain the crown of Illian.

 

The Aiel--deserve their own thread, and I'm gonna make one on them soon, but for the short I suspect the water now present in the Waste will begin altering ecosystem, and that the Aiel will return their, but not as reclusively as they do in previous times. I also doubt they'll fragment again so completely, but rather retain a sort of Clan Council which will govern the Aiel nation. More on this soon.

 

So that's my idea. What do you guys reckon of it? Have different ideas, throw them out for us.

[Terez]

Moiraine will definitely take Cairhien.  The Seanchan will save Arad Doman from destruction; Tuon likes delegating through the nations.  And I think she will complete her Consolidation before the Last Battle, so all will be ruled by the Empress.  And Mat of course.  ;D  Everything else will probably pretty much stay as is with the possible exception of Tenobia, and maybe some other random occurrence.  Like, if Roedran really is Demandred, I doubt he will be sticking around, but no one cares about Murandy anyway.

 

I mentioned the possibility at JordanCon that Lan would end up ruling all of the Borderlands because their rulers abandoned them.  I also think he'll probably die, but I think Nynaeve will find him when she goes to rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod. 

[Luckers]

Moiraine will definitely take Cairhien.

 

I just don't see it. Moiraine didn't want Cairhein in New Spring, and I don't think she'll go anywhere near it now, not when Elayne has the claim and the intention to claim, and the skill to do what needs to be done.

 

I far more suspect that Moiraine and Thom will work to with the White and Black Tower's to establish the coordination between them. Thom will use his skills and the knowledge Moiraine gives him about the Vileness to manouver the Black Tower into a position of political equality with the White out of his sense of debt for Oweyn. They may even be responsible for intergration of the two Towers, but at the very least for the establishment of alliance between them.

 

 

[Terez]

Moiraine will definitely take Cairhien.

 

I just don't see it. Moiraine didn't want Cairhein in New Spring

 

People always bring this up as if it means anything.  Siuan also didn't want to be Amyrlin; Moiraine told her she would be, and Siuan told Moiraine that she would be a wonderful queen.

 

I don't think she'll go anywhere near it now

 

Why?  We have little indication of what her thoughts on the subject would be, after all she's been through.

 

not when Elayne has the claim and the intention to claim' date=' and the skill to do what needs to be done.[/quote']

 

Elayne has agreed to claim it because Rand needs someone he can trust to take the throne.  But she is Andoran at heart, and always will be.  Why risk destroying Cairhien when there is someone whom Rand trusts that is Cairhienin to her bones?  Oh, and Thom...those two will be legends in Cairhien - Moiraine already is, for taking out Lanfear on the docks.  People saw.  And Thom is the reason why the throne is vacant in the first place.  At least one person knows about that - the innkeeper who took care of the bodies for him.  She held her tongue so long as it was a matter of Thom's life, but if he's king, she will probably talk.  ;D

 

I far more suspect that Moiraine and Thom will work to with the White and Black Tower's to establish the coordination between them.

 

This has little thematic significance for their characters, IMO.  Yes, Thom had a nephew that could channel, but he can't channel.  Moiraine and Thom are probably the two greatest players of the Game alive.  They belong in the Sun Palace.  Thom will be both king and court bard.  ;D

[Luckers]

People always bring this up as if it means anything.  Siuan also didn't want to be Amyrlin; Moiraine told her she would be, and Siuan told Moiraine that she would be a wonderful queen.

 

It does mean something. Moiraine was quite clear about her extreme dislike of the concept of holding the throne. I don't even think she'd be willing to take it without Elayne in the picture, but with her, no, Moiraine wouldn't go near Cairhein with a ten foot pole.

 

Why?  We have little indication of what her thoughts on the subject would be, after all she's been through.

 

What indication do you have that her thoughts would have changed in the slightest. Even in tSR she indicates her extreme dislike for dealing with petty politics. If she maintained that over twenty years, why would it suddenly change?

 

Elayne has agreed to claim it because Rand needs someone he can trust to take the throne.  But she is Andoran at heart, and always will be.  Why risk destroying Cairhien when there is someone whom Rand trusts that is Cairhienin to her bones?

 

Elayne makes quite clear that her claims to the Sun Throne have absolutely nothing to do with Rand desiring her have it. She even directly states that if she claims the Sun Throne it will be because of her right to it, and in KoD she sends missives to Cairhein that directly indicate she does, in fact intend to do so.

 

Thom...those two will be legends in Cairhien - Moiraine already is, for taking out Lanfear on the docks.  People saw.  And Thom is the reason why the throne is vacant in the first place.  At least one person knows about that - the innkeeper who took care of the bodies for him.  She held her tongue so long as it was a matter of Thom's life, but if he's king, she will probably talk.

 

She'll be more famous amongst the Aes Sedai, and Thom will undoubtedly attain more respect from the Black Tower, who desperately need his political skills.

 

This has little thematic significance for their characters, IMO.  Yes, Thom had a nephew that could channel, but he can't channel.  Moiraine and Thom are probably the two greatest players of the Game alive.  They belong in the Sun Palace.  Thom will be both king and court bard.

 

The Cairhienin play the Great Game, the Aes Sedai created it. And the Game that is coming, the game between male and female channelers active at the same time for the first time in three millenia--that is going to be the Greatest Game ever played. It is precisely where Moiraine and Thom's skills should be. It is where Thom's heart will direct him.

[Terez]

People always bring this up as if it means anything.  Siuan also didn't want to be Amyrlin; Moiraine told her she would be, and Siuan told Moiraine that she would be a wonderful queen.

 

It does mean something. Moiraine was quite clear about her extreme dislike of the concept of holding the throne.

 

 

Like I said (gee I hate repeating myself), Siuan was also very clear about her extreme dislike for the concept of being Amyrlin, or even in the Hall.  Also:

 

1.  Moiraine was more afraid of taking the throne than anything else.  She feared the mobs.  Elayne has already set a precedent as an Aes Sedai queen, so she doesn't have to worry about that.

 

2.  She was also determined to find the Dragon Reborn.  Now that her quest has been fulfilled, she has the chance to do something else. 

 

I don't even think she'd be willing to take it without Elayne in the picture' date=' but with her, no, Moiraine wouldn't go near Cairhein with a ten foot pole.[/quote']

 

I believe that Elayne will be the one to suggest it.  She has enough to do with Andor on her hands; again, she only agreed to take Cairhien as a favor to Rand.

 

What indication do you have that her thoughts would have changed in the slightest. Even in tSR she indicates her extreme dislike for dealing with petty politics. If she maintained that over twenty years' date=' why would it suddenly change?[/quote']

 

She indicated her dislike for having to take the time to deal with the High Lords and such because Rand was her main concern.  She was obsessed at the time with controlling him; the rings of Rhuidean changed her outlook a great deal.  She talked about almost nothing BUT petty politics on the way to Cairhien.  She did her best to fill Rand's head with it before she faced Lanfear; she even asked Rand to be fair with her people.

 

Elayne makes quite clear that her claims to the Sun Throne have absolutely nothing to do with Rand desiring her have it.

 

No, she makes it quite clear that she was upset with Rand for presuming to 'give' her both the Sun Throne and the Lion Throne.  Her thoughts make it clear later that she is doing it as a favor to him.

 

She even directly states that if she claims the Sun Throne it will be because of her right to it' date=' and in KoD she sends missives to Cairhein that directly indicate she does, in fact intend to do so.[/quote']

 

Yes, we all know she has agreed to claim it.  But in COT:  'Two! Elayne shared a wide smile with Aviendha. She could almost feel her sister’s delight. She was going to have twins. Rand’s babies. A boy and a girl, she hoped, or two boys. Twin girls would present all manner of difficulties for the succession. No one ever gained the Rose Crown with everyone behind her.'  No thought for the Sun Throne there at all.

[Luckers]

Like I said (gee I hate repeating myself), Siuan was also very clear about her extreme dislike for the concept of being Amyrlin, or even in the Hall.

 

Siuan also had a very good reason to the take the Amyrlin Seat--and, additionally, no choice in the matter. She did not put herself forward, Seaine did. Moiraine has no need to take the throne--Elayne there with the skills to do what needs to be done. And no one around is pushing for her to be on the throne.

 

Besides, what type of argument is 'if Siuan got the Amyrlin Seat, Moiraine must have the Sun Throne'?

 

1.  Moiraine was more afraid of taking the throne than anything else.  She feared the mobs.  Elayne has already set a precedent as an Aes Sedai queen, so she doesn't have to worry about that.

 

She also had an extreme aversion to the practical aspects of ruling. She directly cites her distaste for it in New Spring, and backs it up again in tSR.

 

2.  She was also determined to find the Dragon Reborn.  Now that her quest has been fulfilled, she has the chance to do something else. 

 

So you propose she will take a job she detests, for no particular reason, when someone else is already in place to do it for her?

 

I believe that Elayne will be the one to suggest it.  She has enough to do with Andor on her hands; again, she only agreed to take Cairhien as a favor to Rand.

 

Again, no she didn't. She is quite clear on the subject.

 

"The point is, Rand means to give you the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne." To her surprise, Elayne sat up very straight.

 

"He does, does he?" she said in a cool flat voice. "He intends to give them to me." Her chin rose slightly. "I have some claim to the Sun Throne, and if I choose to make it, I will do so in my own right. As for the Lion Throne, Rand al'Thor has no right-none!—to give me what is mine already."

 

No 'I'm doing this as a favour'. She claims it by her own right. And later she states her intention to follow through on that principal.

 

"Have a letter prepared for my signature and seal, Master Norry, to be sent to every major House in Cairhien. Begin with setting out my right to the Sun Throne as the daughter of Taringail Damodred, and say that I will come to put forward my claim when events in Andor are more settled."

 

Elayne makes clear that she has every intention of claiming the Sun Throne--and not as a favour to Rand, not because she knows he wants her to have it, but because she has a right to it.

 

She indicated her dislike for having to take the time to deal with the High Lords and such because Rand was her main concern.  She was obsessed at the time with controlling him; the rings of Rhuidean changed her outlook a great deal.  She talked about almost nothing BUT petty politics on the way to Cairhien.  She did her best to fill Rand's head with it before she faced Lanfear; she even asked Rand to be fair with her people.

 

That is because Rand needed to know it. Indeed as time passed she grew less involved with politics, not more.

 

No, she makes it quite clear that she was upset with Rand for presuming to 'give' her both the Sun Throne and the Lion Throne.  Her thoughts make it clear later that she is doing it as a favor to him.

 

Fine. Quote it. I'm sure the absolute clarity will astound me.

 

Yes, we all know she has agreed to claim it.  But in COT:  'Two! Elayne shared a wide smile with Aviendha. She could almost feel her sister’s delight. She was going to have twins. Rand’s babies. A boy and a girl, she hoped, or two boys. Twin girls would present all manner of difficulties for the succession. No one ever gained the Rose Crown with everyone behind her.'  No thought for the Sun Throne there at all.

 

That's because having twin girls as opposed to a boy and a girl has no distinction upon the inheritance of the Sun Throne. Why should she reference it? And besides, really... that's your evidence? Elayne failed to think of the Sun Throne at one moment during a race for the Rose Crown?

 

Moiraine has a stated aversion to taking the Sun Throne, whilst Elayne has a stated intention to do so. There is no evidence to even suggest Elayne would even like to pull out of the race, and nothing to say Moiraine would enter it.

[Loophole]

"He does, does he?" she said in a cool flat voice. "He intends to give them to me." Her chin rose slightly. "I have some claim to the Sun Throne, and if I choose to make it, I will do so in my own right. As for the Lion Throne, Rand al'Thor has no right-none!—to give me what is mine already."

 

This is one of the things that really annoys me about Elayne. Her and her "right" to rule. Anyway back on topic.

 

I expect to see (if we ever get to see anything) a lot of new nations popping up. Depending on the severity of the LB The large ones may not have enough power and stability to maintain all their boundaries, and the people in no mans land will have to stick together to make it through. This could give rise to a lot of smaller nations lead by individuals that did what needed to be done in those areas earning the respect of their people.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

I'd love to see Manetheren reborn, in principle if not in name.

 

[Terez]

Quote it. I'm sure the absolute clarity will astound me.

Nah, I think I'll just laugh at you when she takes the Sun Throne. ;)  I know how you are once you get muley; I shouldn't have to dig quotes out of the books for you of all people here.

[Duskfire]

I think Elayne will give the Cairhein to Dobraine, at least as a steward. He deserves it and has shown at the very leats he isn't a horrible ruler.

 

Just re-reading TGH now, and theres this paragraph where Ingtar raves on about how many nations have fallen and been forgotten for this reason or that, and how its only a matter of time before the same thing happens, or words to that affect. The entire thing has an air of foreshadowing to me, and its why I think that the nations will drastically change probably more so then people realise.

[Majsju]

as will the Caralain Grass, which I suspect will be repopulated in the days to come.

 

How about some credit to the bloke who gave you that idea in the first place ;)

[Snarf]

With her plate full of Andor I don't see why Elayne would even want the Sun Throne.  Certainly, she has a claim to it, but her claim is equal to Gawyn's, and both of them have less claim than Galad.  I don't see why it has to be Elayne.  If she ruled there as well, she'd be stretched too thin.  She's stretched pretty thin with one nation.  Besides, the people of Cairhien may not be best pleased to have the Queen of Andor sitting on their throne, no matter what claim she may be entitled to.  She's the flaming Queen of Andor!  And the same would go for Galad, him being the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light.  I doubt they would appreciate the Whitecloaks making that kind of power grab.  And that is the only way it would be seen.  As far as Moiraine, she doesn't want it.  If anything, her time with the Eelfinn would probably put her in a mindset to just chill for a while once she's out.  She won't be feeling up to ruling right after that, if ever.

[Val Mickey]

Battle of the Heavy Weights! ;D

 

I wish the WT would make a new kingdom.

[Majsju]

The future of Mayene mighgt be interesting, considering that her ruler seems set to marry the leader of the whitecloaks...

[threadnecromancer]

Battle of the Heavy Weights! ;D

 

I wish the WT would make a new kingdom.

 

I think that they probably will. We know that there is a Greater Arvalon in the Fourth Age.

[StefanR]

I find it funny that Elayne was up in arms about Rand giving her the throne. If he knew about his parentage, he would have more claim to it than her. Which would mean that in order for her to have any right to it, he WOULD have to give it to her LOL

[Majsju]

I find it funny that Elayne was up in arms about Rand giving her the throne. If he knew about his parentage, he would have more claim to it than her. Which would mean that in order for her to have any right to it, he WOULD have to give it to her LOL

 

Except that as a man, he has zero claim on the throne, no matter what his parentage is.

 

Rand nearly destroyed Elaynes claim by thinking he should "give" her the throne, so Elaynes reaction was quite mild.

[Red Hand Man]

I find it funny that Elayne was up in arms about Rand giving her the throne. If he knew about his parentage, he would have more claim to it than her. Which would mean that in order for her to have any right to it, he WOULD have to give it to her LOL

 

Except that as a man, he has zero claim on the throne, no matter what his parentage is.

 

Rand nearly destroyed Elaynes claim by thinking he should "give" her the throne, so Elaynes reaction was quite mild.

 

"I thought it was an Autonomous Collective?" ~ Tam

 

Ahh, here we go:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA3lfQ1RQsw

[DemandredFO]

Except if it weren't for Rand, Elayne would probably under as much compulsion as her mother was and engaged in a threesome with her mother and Rahvin or more likely dead.  Rand screwed up but Elayne was ungrateful; there's more than enough blame to go around.  I wonder what will happen to the blight; will it get absorbed or become a new nation.  I hope we get an epilogue 10-100 yrs hence or something.

[FainsLeftFoot]

I could see the nations offering Caraline Grass to the Seanchan nation to resolve alot of the warring, perhaps even Pre-Last battle as a means to bind all nations under one. surely that chunk of land would be more than enough to sway them?

 

 

[Majsju]

I could see the nations offering Caraline Grass to the Seanchan nation to resolve alot of the warring, perhaps even Pre-Last battle as a means to bind all nations under one. surely that chunk of land would be more than enough to sway them?

 

 

 

Not a chance. From a strategic POV, that would be suicide. Look at the map:

Perrin and Failes coming 'empire' (Saldea, TR and Ghealdan) gets divided into two halfs. Andor Tar Valon, Cairhien and the Borderlands gets directly threatened. With everything the Seanchan has done, there is not a sane person who would believe them if they said 'Sure, give us that chunk of land, and we will not try to take anymore, promise'.

[FainsLeftFoot]

Yeah I agree, it would be too good of an offer now that I think of it.

 

I could see a Post LB fight for Mayene by Illian and Tear, I see those two nations battling as soon as the LB ends. I was actually hoping to have some major  Naval battle sequences between Sammael and Rand but no such luck.

 

 

 

[Majsju]

Yeah I agree, it would be too good of an offer now that I think of it.

 

I could see a Post LB fight for Mayene by Illian and Tear, I see those two nations battling as soon as the LB ends. I was actually hoping to have some major battle sequences between Sammael and Rand but no such luck.

 

Also unlikely. Again because of the threat posed by the Seanchan. Considering that Illian and Tear have fought eachother quite a lot over the years, I think it is safe to assume there is not much inequality in military strength, so for Illian to get involved in such a campaign, they would need to dedicate most of their forces. Which means leaving their other borders more or less wide open, and the Seanchan are lurking just outside their border. Also, Berelain claims to be an ascendant of Hawkwing himself, so the Seanchan might disapprove of any move against Mayene.

 

And of course, depending on how the speculated Berelain-Galad hookup plays out, Mayene might get a substantial increase of military power...