The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Luckers]

The Mysteries of Cyndane

 

Is Cyndane Lanfear?

 

The short answer is, yes. There was some confusion over this based around Demandred’s comment that the Forsaken no longer thought Cyndane to be Lanfear based on Graendal’s assertion that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear had been. However the similarities between Cyndane and Lanfear essentially prove that to be wrong, from the way she strives for height to the way she refers to Rand as Lews Therin and speaks so knowledgeably of the Age of Legends. The most telling piece of evidence, however, comes at the end of Winter’s Heart.

 

So, [Rand] had found a woman to use the Access Key for him. [Cyndane] would have faced the Great Lord—faced the Creator!—with him. She would have shared power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love. Spurned her.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 641]

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

The combination of these quote make it certain that Cyndane and Lanfear were the same woman. No other woman ever offered to use the Choedan Kal to challenge the Creator and the Dark One with Rand, no other Forsaken loved Rand, no other Forsaken had been held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and if Cyndane had not been Lanfear prior, than Lanfear would have been stronger than she was, which goes against the quote. Essentially, Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

How did Lanfear end up in her new body?

 

Basically, she died and was recycled by the Dark One. Some people initially suggested that the Finns granted Lanfear’s new body based on a ‘wish’ by either her, or Moiraine (the theories varied as to the purpose and effect of this ‘wish’), but RJ settled this question at DragonCon 2005.

 

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the power... I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed?

 

RJ: No… No to both.

 

So, no, it wasn’t the Finns.

 

How did Lanfear lose her strength?

 

There are five major suggestions for the source of Lanfear’s lost strength that I have seen.

 

1. The Cyndane body was not as strong as Lanfear’s in the One Power.

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen—thus perhaps it is the issue of looking for a body with a strong enough ability to channel that takes the time.

 

However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and (perhaps most importantly) Aran’gar retained their exact strength and connection to the Source? Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—indicate that all three of the other Recycled Forsaken’s strength’s were exactly the same as what they had been before transmigration. It therefore seems odd that the Shadow managed to find three bodies which exactly match the strength’s of their host souls (not the least finding a woman to match a strong male channeler), and one that did not.

 

2. That saidar channelers are effected by transmigration differently to saidin channelers

 

Follow the logic from point one, one may point out that Lanfear is the only woman (the only saidar channeler) we have seen transmigrated, and that perhaps transmigration effects saidar channelers differently than saidin channelers, in which case it was the souls state, not the bodies's state which caused the loss. Lacking evidence one way or the other, its valid conjecture.

 

3. The Dark One purposefully reduced Cyndane’s strength as punishment.

 

We know that Cyndane was in a lot of trouble when she was transmigrated. Attacking Rand against orders, going off on her own, and so on and so forth… so the suggestion was that the decline in power resulted from the Dark One’s anger. Now, even if you accept that the Dark One could do this—and there is no evidence of anything of the sort—this makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

This is where it begins to make no sense. The Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; making her nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

4. Could the Finns have altered Lanfear’s strength?

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have some sort of problem with the Shadow—the snakes actively punish people who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get. This isn’t set in stone, of course, but it does indicate a certain degree of aversion may be present.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is very unlikely to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

5. Cyndane was severed from the Source, and healed by a woman.

 

This one is a little more convoluted, so I will handle it in parts.

 

The Circumstances in Cairhein

 

When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded, depositing them in a world with vastly different physical laws (as per RJ). From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond which, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence—so a connection still exists, and we see Moiraine’s bond withstand such distance in tSR so long as a connection was in place. Still, there is nothing to absolutely rule this out as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence of them being burned out can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially proves that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

Can Burning Out Even Be Healed?

 

It's uncertain, as of yet. People point out that burn outs cannot sense the source, indicating a higher degree of damage had been done, however I would draw everyone's attention to a few things. Firstly, the destinction of severing someone and leaving them able to sense the source is a function of the Aes Sedai method of stilling, as cited here from the Glossaries.

 

stilling: The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

 

Nynaeve describes the nature of that method, here.

 

The knife-sharp shield that Egwene had used to still Amico Nagoyin sprang into being, more weapon than shield, lashed at Moghedien-and was blocked, woven Spirit straining against woven Spirit, just short of severing Moghedien from the Source forever. Again the Forsaken's counterblow came, slashing like an axe, intended to cut Nynaeve off in the same way. Forever. Desperately Nynaeve blocked it.

 

Suddenly she realized that under her anger she was terrified. Holding off the other woman's attempt to still her while trying to do the same to her took everything she had. The Power boiled in her till she thought she must burst; her knees quivered with the effort of standing. And all went into those two things; she could not spare enough to light a candle. Moghedien's axe of Spirit waxed and waned in sharpness, but that would not matter if the woman managed to drive it home; Nynaeve could not see any real difference in outcome between being stilled by the woman and merely--merelyl-being shielded and at her mercy. The thing brushed against the flow of Power from the Source into her, like a knife hovering over a chicken's stretched neck.

 

[tSR; 54, Into the Palace]

 

In effect a sharp version of the Shield weave. Now consider the way Rand severs Ronaille, Irgaine and Sashelle from the Source.

 

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit.

 

[LoC; 55, Dumai's Well's]

 

Alot of people simply say that this must then be the male method of stilling--which seems unlikely. The male shield is described the same as the female shield. If the female method of stilling is an alteration of that shield, it stands to reason that the male method would be as well.

 

But even if this is the male method of stilling, its still not the knife sharp weave stated to leave a person able to sense the True Source. Indeed, despite the fact that Rand did this to them, and is thus termed to have 'stilled' them, the effect bears far more similarity to what occurs when a ter'angreal goes wrong. He crushed flows they were maintaining, thereby over-stressing their ability and searing it out of them. Consider that against Egwene's bad experience with the broken Access Key ter'angreal.

 

As her hand grasped it, the Power surged within her, into the half-figure then back into her, into the figure and back, in and back. The crystal sphere flickered in fitful, lurid flashes, and needles stabbed her brain with each flash. With a sob of agony, she loosed her hold and clasped both hands to her head.

 

[tSR; 11, What Lies In Shadow]

 

The ter'angreal seizes the power in her, rips it in a way that over-stresses Egwene's ability. Had she held on it very likely would have burned her out or killed her--Lanfear certainly implies as much in [tFoH; 6, Gateways].

 

Anyway the point here is that what Rand did to Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgain seems to bear much more relation to burning out than it does to the knife-sharp weave that is cited to leave the person able to channel, yet those three all get healed. That far from sets it in stone, but it does at least nudge us at the probability that Burning Out can indeed be healed.

 

If She Was Healed, How Did It Happen?

 

So, we know that after being held for a time, Lanfear died and was recycled into a new body. Maria tells us that the channeling state remains constant across the transmigration bridge.

 

MAFO #7 - If you were burned out and then transmigrated, would you still be burned out? [[brandon] answered that [he] was pretty sure that it was a yes, but that we should feel free to MAFO].

 

Maria's Answer # 7 - Yes, you would.  Jim said that “neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.” (DragonCon), but transmigration is not really a different lifetime; more than just the soul moves.  The new person (I’m at a loss for words here) also has the memories of the previous person, and its personality, and such.  So Brandon is correct.

 

So, if Cyndane were returned to life burned out, how would the Shadow react? At this stage Moghedian had just been brought to Shayol Goul, and even if she didn’t inform the Shadow of Nynaeve’s discovery, the fact that the Shadow knew to rescue her shows that they are keeping close eyes on the Rebel Aes Sedai, and the likelihood that such a marvel as a way to heal being severed had not reached Moridin’s ears is very slim.

 

Now this was prior to Finn’s discovery, so the Shadow had no way of knowing that a man would heal a woman to full strength, so the obvious and logical option for the Shadow, rather than leave one of the Forsaken unable to channel, would be to summon a Black Sister from amongst the Rebels to heal Cyndane… for even a weakened Chosen is better than a severed Chosen. Indeed we know one of the women who specifically set out to learn and improve Nynaeve’s technique was a Black sister—Dagdara.

 

From there the function of the healing is easy. A dream message to Aran’gar and a Black ‘Yellow’ Sister sent to Shayol Goul by gateway. It would not have even aroused any suspicion, because as Siuan observes, at any one time up to twenty sisters are off elsewhere in the world attending to other matters.

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Siuan and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. Previously I had argued that Siuan and Leane had not lost as much strength as they appeared to—that the degree of their loss were accentuated by the limited range of the Aes Sedai hierarchy. Maria shot me down.

 

9. Question--In [LoC; 30, To Heal Again - 617] Siuan, after being healed, says to Nynaeve that ‘if she could heal her to half of what she was’ she would be better off. This has led to the perception that Siuan and Leane are less than half their original strength. Yet in [CoT; 19, Surprises – 459]  we find out that both women stand several steps above the Aes Sedai minimum strength. This seems problematic—the range of Aes Sedai strength does not appear to be so great as to allow for this. So the question is, did Siuan and Leane in fact lose such a large amount of strength as they appear to have?

 

Maria Answers--Yes, they did lose a large amount of strength.  The range of strength is greater than you think, I believe.  At the beginning, Siuan was near the top (and Leane close behind); if she were half the strength she used to be, she’d be in the middle. Instead, she’s somewhere in the lower half, but not absolute rock bottom, nor nearly as low as Daigian Moseneillin.

 

As such this remains the greatest problem for the Healing Theory. Here are some of the alternate explanations I’ve seen.

 

1. That the stronger a woman is in the Power, the less strength she loses in a same-gender healing.

 

2. That someone (usually Semirhage, though I point out again that Dagdara, a known black, was hell bent on improving Nynaeve’s method) improved the method so less strength was lost.

 

3. That after being healed by a woman, Cyndane was later re-healed by an Asha’men, bringing her strength back up a bit.

 

4. That the Dark One made an effort to improve the healing.

 

Conclusions

 

Lanfear is Cyndane. The two more likely answers for her decline in strength are that saidar channelers are weakened during the transmigration process, or that Cyndane was burned out and healed by a woman. The first has the value of nothing opposes it, however there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it. The second has the value of being supported by the circumstances of Lanfear's fall into Finnland, and the fact that to date the only thing we've seen weaken a channelers strength is being severed and healed by the same gender, however it suffers the strange discrepency between the amount of strength Cyndane lost, and the amounts lost by Siuan and Leane.

 

A Few Final Facts

 

1. For a long time people theorized that Cyndane might be disguised as Sylvase, which you can read about here if you so wish, however Brandon ruled this out.

 

11. TheWindRose asked. Are there any forsaken around Elayne? Brandon paused for a moment, then said. So many people are trying to figure out where Demandred is, I am not sure I can answer that. Forkroot and I both said no not Demandred, we were talking Cyndane or Moghedian. Then we said for example some postulate that Sylvaese is Cyndane. he said "no, sylvaese is not a forsaken and was never intended to be."

[samadai's Tor Q&A]

 

2. Similarily, based on timing and a relative similarity of appearence, some suggested Cyndane's body might have formerly belonged to Cabriana Meccandes. Maria ruled this out.

 

10. Question-- Was Cyndane's new body originally Cabriana Meccandes?

 

Maria Answers--No.  [alternately, I could RAFO this, although it seemed so far-fetched to me that it seems okay to answer it]

 

[My Plot Related Q&A With Maria]

[aunt_pol]

Yeah I think Dagdara's been a naughty girl. Think you nailed all the salient points there!

[Thor]

Wrong about the loss of strength.

 

The simplest answer is that the reduction of strength is constant and not percentage.

 

Eg

Lanfear strength: 100

Cyndane strength: 82

Graendal strength: 80

Siuan strength before: 27

Siuan strength after: 9

 

Both lanfear/cyndane and siuan lost 18 strength, but the effect is much bigger for siuan.

[Luckers]

You're not incorrect--though you could, perhaps, have said it more tactfully.

 

I forgot the equal amounts argument. However its not as simple as you put out. I'll update the thread tomorrow.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Very informative post there Luckers. I wonder what Dida will think of it?

[Luckers]

Very informative post there Luckers. I wonder what Dida will think of it?

 

Apparently he's boycotting Dragonmount because I shut him down for threadjacking anything that touched on Cyndane--but I can guess what he would say anyway. :p

[aunt_pol]

Halleluia for that, Dida makes my head hurt.

 

I'd say Thor is right, if blunt.

[Owayn The Traveller]

:D

Thought something was missing from here lately, his/her's truculence refusal that Cyndane is almost certainly Lanfear.

 

I hate to say but I kinda miss it.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Well he's free to create a thread on it, if he wishes. Just no more threadjacking.

[yoniy0]

Luckers, I agree with everything you said. So much so that I wonder if the title really captures the essence of this essay - after all, there isn't really any mystery left about her (I guess nothing's been proved regarding the manner of her loss of strength, but as over half of your original post is dedicated to explaining my favorite theory, could I hazard a guess that you agree it's most likely?)

[Luckers]

That she was severed and healed by a woman? Yes. In fact prior to Maria slapping me down, I was certain of it. Now I merely think it is the most likely reality.

[Thor]

Well regardless of what happened to her, there can be no question that Cyndane IS Lanfear, given that we have her pov.

 

And her battle with Alivia despite Alivia having all sorts of 'greals shows that she got some insane channeling ability, which only a forsaken would have.

[Paerish Swar]

Great post, Luckers.

 

I looked for some more quotes to support some of the points you made.

 

First,

[brandon on Twitter] Okay, time to post about Cyndane for you Theorylanders. I have been discussing with Maria all day. She and I have different opinions on some things in the notes, but she has convinced me that she is right. I believed that there were some issues with her Power level—the Dark One playing tricks to keep everyone guessing—but Maria convinced me her Power really is what it seems. . .

 

I think this one generally supports your assertion that the Dark One wouldn't have intentionally done something to reduce her strength.  Why play tricks, or intentionally diminish the ability of your tool?

 

But I would like to try to add to the first of your five suggestions for Lanfear's loss of strength.

 

Here are three relevant quotes:

 

[Jordan] For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. . .

 

[Jordan] I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or severing affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.

 

[brandon] Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (ie, just because you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber channel in one body, you could be weak in the power in your next body.

 

From these, I would say at the very least that it is the soul that determines whether or not an individual can channel at all, but the strength of which is almost completely dependent upon the body itself.

 

Or . . .

 

It could be possible that the soul has a certain capacity for strength in the power and the body has a certain capacity for strength in the power?  What determines overall strength is the relationship between the two?

 

I don't have any solid support for that second bit, but I think the first bit is pretty solid.

 

Overall, I think this section of your post should have been given a little more weight, but that's just my opinion.

 

As for the state of the other transmigrated souls . . .

 

It is much harder for a man to accurately tell how strong another man is in the power, unless he is filled to capacity in his presence.  I think the only time we have seen one of the Male Forsaken power up in front of another of the Male Forsaken was when Sammael did so in front of Rahvin in tFoH.

 

Moridin appears to exclusively use the TP, so how could anyone know if he is at full strength or not?

 

We can assume that Aginor was, since Rand comments that Dashiva was almost as strong as himself (although I find this to be a little vague.  We already knew that Aginor was really, really strong, but Aginor could still have come out a tiny bit weaker after the transmigration, exactly the same after the transmigration, or he even could have been lucky enough to come out a tiny bit stronger after the transmigration.  The statements we have just aren't enough to say for certain).

 

As for Balthamel, being transmigrated into the body of a woman would seem to have its own unique set of complications.  Perhaps channeling strength just wasn't one of them.  Maybe that is part of why the DO felt confident enough to make such a grand joke of it all?  The soul would exert more influence on channeling ability in this instance of a transgendered transmigration.  (far fetched, but who knows?)

 

Anyway, there hasn't been any direct comment on Halima'gar's strength in her own POV, or from any other character either, IIRC.

 

I just don't know that Demandred's thoughts are the most informative on this particular question.

 

I think, though, that it is important that Moridin, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar were out of the picture a lot longer than Cyndane was.  There was certainly a vast difference in the amount of time the DO had to come up with acceptable bodies for his purposes.

 

 

 

Again, great post, Luckers.

 

I guess we all know where I come down on this issue, now.

 

(As if anyone cares, but me!  ;)) 

 

[Hadilmir]

Is it impossible that Latra Posae Decume was also a darkfriend and finally Cyndane?

 

What we know of her-

-Access to the Access Keys

-Wanted Lews Therin to accept her plan (Using the Choedan Kal)

-Faded away during the Breaking

-Brought the Fateful Concord into being

 

She could have-

-Tried to use the Fateful Concord to force Lews Therin to use the Choedan Kal with her

-Offered Lews Therin a role in using the Access Keys to (for her) betray the Dark One

-Also loved Lews Therin (He was the man of the Age)

-Attempted to plead to the Finns for a way to end the Breaking

-Been held for exactly three thousand years as a result of this pleading if she entered Finnland just as the Breaking was finally ended (Perhaps by using her third wish to be held until Lews Therin lived again)

-Power-restrained upon her freedom for failing (as a darkfriend) so badly during the Third Age

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

Could work, Latra was probably an extremely powerful channeller

 

So, [Rand] had found a woman to use the Access Key for him. [Cyndane] would have faced the Great Lord—faced the Creator!—with him. She would have shared power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love. Spurned her.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 641]

Also could work. Lews Therin probably had a lot of women following him.

 

It would be a Taim=Demandred level red-herring, but it is possible.

 

 

(I actually think Cyndane is Lanfear, but I don't see any proof against it being Latra besides the theory being an extreme net of moonbeams. I enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing, lol)

[Owayn The Traveller]

Well thought out and good points. I'm behind it one hundred per cent. You'll get no agruements here.

 

[Hadilmir]

Well thought out and good points. I'm behind it one hundred per cent. You'll get no agruements here.

Why thank you, but I don't even believe my post.  :D

 

(Yes, I know that was sarcasm)

[Owayn The Traveller]

But, I believed it whole heartly and now you tell me its an empty and holow thing like an Easter Egg. Serves me right for beleiving in something. Well from here on out I'm a cynic and I also will take the counter side to everything you say Hadilmir.

Ah no only kidding. Or am I? Yes I am. Or am I? and so on

[Hadilmir]

Finally, I've already got Durinax and Emu on the Loose against me, but it didn't feel right with only two. You're just the person I was looking for to complete my foil trifectum. Wait you're just kidding? Ohh no, you're serious. By now you're kidding again? Serious. Kidding. Serious. Kidding. Serious. Kidding. Serious. Kidding. Serious. Kidding. Serious. Kidding. Brain explode.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Todays tasks:

- complete a trifectum-done

- explode a brain-done

- threadjack at least two threads-done

- be unsure whether being sarcastic or not-twicely done

- worship our all knowing, all seeing and all wonderful WoT Admin-done

 

Well that was a fulfulling day.

 

 

[Sid]

Ever since Brandon's comments during the TGS tour pertaining to objects of the one power of which (the Finns) have great stores, I've subscribed to the theory of Lanfear somehow having been to Finnland in the past and having acquired some of these objects.  Something like an item that increases others' perception of her appearance, and an item that increases her strength in the one power.  It seems unlikely that even in a fantasy epic like WoT that a person would be not only by far the strongest female channeler in the world, but also by far the most beautiful woman anyone had ever seen. 

 

Perhaps the Finns took her items back when she appeared in their world destroying the doorway, or perhaps they just killed her and the items were unrecoverable even though her soul was nabbed by the DO.  Cyndane is never mentioned having silver and white jewelry and Lanfear was never seen without them.  If they were just regular jewelry that she fancied the look of one would think that she'd have acquired other pieces to replace them. 

So, my belief is that her jewelry were gifts from the Finns and that their disappearance caused Cyndane's difference in power from Lanfear's.

[Nightstrike]

First,

[brandon on Twitter] Okay, time to post about Cyndane for you Theorylanders. I have been discussing with Maria all day. She and I have different opinions on some things in the notes, but she has convinced me that she is right. I believed that there were some issues with her Power level—the Dark One playing tricks to keep everyone guessing—but Maria convinced me her Power really is what it seems. . .

 

I think this one generally supports your assertion that the Dark One wouldn't have intentionally done something to reduce her strength.  Why play tricks, or intentionally diminish the ability of your tool?

That was a joke about the DO playing tricks with Brandon himself. With us readers as well.

 

 

 

 

Lost strength could be a fixed amount. That could certainly explain the difference, unless there is something else that is different between Siuan's situation & Lanny's.

[Suttree]

Been wondering why Dida hasn't weighed in on this yet. Then while following Brandon on Twitter I came across these gems.

 

Dida@BrandonSanderson

 

"I'm not posting at Dragonmount anymore... as the moderators were bullies and erased my postings about Valan Luca & Lanfear."

 

Yeah it was the bully mods not the threadjacking and crazy theories about Lanfear/Cyndane that were the problem.

 

"Though I do wonder if Tor changed the #TofM Book Jacket, because of my Valan Luca musings as "Dida" at Dragonmount."

 

This one speaks for itself. Hit the nail on the head, Team Jordan found out about your 3rd man theory and had to scrap all the artwork for ToM.

 

I for one miss the craziness, come back mate you may always be way off but you never fail to entertain. Cheers.

 

Sutt

[Paerish Swar]

First,

[brandon on Twitter] Okay, time to post about Cyndane for you Theorylanders. I have been discussing with Maria all day. She and I have different opinions on some things in the notes, but she has convinced me that she is right. I believed that there were some issues with her Power level—the Dark One playing tricks to keep everyone guessing—but Maria convinced me her Power really is what it seems. . .

 

I think this one generally supports your assertion that the Dark One wouldn't have intentionally done something to reduce her strength.  Why play tricks, or intentionally diminish the ability of your tool?

That was a joke about the DO playing tricks with Brandon himself. With us readers as well.

 

Really?  It didn't read like that to me.

 

I guess I just didn't get it.

 

Anyway, that quote didn't really have anything to do with the main crux of my post.

 

 

 

Also . . .

 

I've been trying to wrap my head around the "fixed loss" angle, but I just can't see how the numbers work out unless you dramatically underestimate both Graendal and Siuan's strengths.

 

Not to say that 13th Depository's Saidar Strength Rankings with the 21 levels is canon or anything (except for the fact that there are 21 levels), but if we use that as a guide the numbers just don't work out well.

 

The only thing that might make it work out is if the increase of strength from level to level is not a linear progression.

 

But the less linear the progression gets, rather quickly the the numbers seem to get off even further.

 

The theory is nice, simple, and straighforward, but I just don't feel like all the details we have from the text can support it.

 

Maybe someone can show me how they have managed to make it work out.

[Nightstrike]

Those levels might not be 100(or whatever)/21.

[Duskfire]

I still think it was the Finns, but based purely on the breaking of their sacred rules, as opposed to any particular wishes Lanfear and Moiraine had. They almost killed Mat for not setting a decent negotiation; Lanfear was incredibly proud of her strength in the One Power and taking away just a small part of that would annoy her endlessly. Obviously my post is all speculation since we dont know if the Finns are capable of such a thing, but I am willing to bet they have quite a few powers we don't know of yet.