Of the Blademasters, who are the top 5?

[Zentari]

Why do people think that just because LTT was good with a sword, that he would be better than or even close to Lan?

Learning the sword was only a hobby for them, an ancient game to play before the War of Power and does anyone think they actually used a sword much during the War?

The hobby they turned into a killing tool,something which goes a long way past what the average (if such word applies to them) blademaster does.It's way easier learning a martial art than creating your own so it's fair to say that were quite good with it and that's putting it mildly.

 

They didn't invent anything, they studied an ancient practice as a hobby and something fun to do together.

 

They were Generals and more importantly channelers, LTT wouldn't of had any more practical use for a sword than Rand did at Maradon.

 

They saw a NEED to do so.If your argument was right, they wouldn't have done it, so obviously it was needed and got chances to practice it too.

 

They didn't see a NEED to do anything. LTT, Sammy and Be'lal took up the hobby for fun, long before they even knew what the word War was.

Remember Belal's words ? If no further action was needed then someone else would have taken that hobby and simply rolled with it.It's just like how modern fencing is related to historical fencing so yeah, chances are it needed quite a few changes.

 

Also, if you roll with the argument that they had better things to do, that makes things more complicated for you.If what you said was correct, why should the generals take time to teach an antiquate sport that was , by your saying, useless ? Perhaps common troops could use it but channelers ?

[Finnssss22]

Remember Belal's words ? If no further action was needed then someone else would have taken that hobby and simply rolled with it.It's just like how modern fencing is related to historical fencing so yeah, chances are it needed quite a few changes.

 

...and? What would be more advanced, sword fighting that only had a practical use and even widely practiced in the last 100 years of the AoL OR what has been practiced and put to daily practical use for the last 3000 years?

Tough one right.

 

Also, if you roll with the argument that they had better things to do, that makes things more complicated for you.If what you said was correct, why should the generals take time to teach an antiquate sport that was , by your saying, useless ? Perhaps common troops could use it but channelers ?

 

Common troops didn't even NEED to know how to use a sword until later in the War.

It wasn't until they ran out of the means, resources and facilities to make advanced weaponry that the need for martial weapons were required and used.

 

 

 

Week 14 Question: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!) Think of the ability to Travel in terms of moving troops via aircraft, and you will begin to get the picture. Even with the largest possible circles, there are limits to the size of gateways and thus limits to the front along which you can move troops out through it, the numbers you can commit simultaneously. Of course, you can use multiple gateways, but each is still only so large and can admit only so many soldiers at a time.

 

So-called front lines were very fluid, but you couldn't fling your forces in anywhere without regard to what would be surrounding them or how you were going to resupply, reinforce or withdraw them. Although no one has shown it so far in the books, there are ways to interfere with the making of a gateway - and ways to defend against interference - so the battle would take place on many levels. Yes, any area you hold can be attacked by your enemy, and you can attack any area that he holds. (Part of the result was great destruction and a great fall-off in the ability to produce high tech items. By the time the Bore was sealed, soldiers were already much, much more likely to ride horses and carry swords than to ride armored vehicles or aircraft and carry shocklances, which had all become very rare.) But holding an area is not impossible so long as you can successfully disrupt your opponent's attempts to make gateways into it. Even if he manages to get those first soldiers in, if you can disrupt his ability to reinforce, resupply or withdraw, it becomes another Dien Bien Phu for him. Of course, if you fail, then it becomes Gettysburg or Waterloo, a bloody fight that will be decisive for somebody. At least until the next "decisive" battle is fought. Remember, that designation is always given after the fact, by historians."

[Entreri]

In about 2 years Rand became the 2nd greatest blademaster in WoT. He is a phenom. His rise was aided with the memories of LTT, even unknowingly.

 

Now imagine LTT, Sammael, Be'lal using that to kill for many years. So I would not be surprised if LTT was as good as Lan. Rand also took out 2 armed Warders barehanded.

 

Possibly used in close quarter combat or when one was fatigued from wielding the OP. But more likely imo, that they had gladiatorial arena contests. With the world going to hell, disputes were probably settled in other ways.

 

"You were a greater swordsman, once, Lew Therin...Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said men once had?"

[Finnssss22]

Another RJ quote

 

Question: In the Age of Legends, the soldiers used shocklances? Were they projectile or energy weapons?

Jordan: Think of it as an energy weapon. Remember, by the time we get to the Breaking, shocklances are actually in fairly short supply and other devices of that sort. Long before we get to the Breaking, the industrial base has been enough destroyed that soldiers are once again using bows and spears and swords because there simply aren't enough shocklances to go around, nor jo-cars, and there is no industrial base to provide replacement for them.

[Entreri]

From Lord of Chaos:

 

"You are another Jearom" some noble

 

"No one exercises against five" Bashere

 

"Do you think you will live long enough to equal the greatest swordsman in history" Bashere.

 

 

This foreshadows his death but also hints at his potential given time. Shai'tan says his Chosen are the strongest, but in reality, the Creator's Chosen is always the strongest.

[Finnssss22]

Look at it this way...who would you put your money on? A few guys that study and practice the sword for fun in their spare time as a hobby today or an experienced Samurai Warrior from feudal Japan times.

 

I know who my money's going on.

[Zentari]

Remember Belal's words ? If no further action was needed then someone else would have taken that hobby and simply rolled with it.It's just like how modern fencing is related to historical fencing so yeah, chances are it needed quite a few changes.

 

...and? What would be more advanced, sword fighting that only had a practical use and even widely practiced in the last 100 years of the AoL OR what has been practiced and put to daily practical use for the last 3000 years?

Tough one right.

 

You are talking about a man who made this all possible so yeah, I understand the concept of the forms being more evolved , but the point about him being a true master still stands.

 

Also your comparison fails on account that THEY developed the styles that the so called samurai used.

[Finnssss22]

 

Also your comparison fails on account that THEY developed the styles that the so called samurai used.

 

First off, they didn't invent anything, they were almost learning it from a book.

Secondly...you completely missed the point. It's not about who invented the styles, it's about who used it and actually needed it. How good a Samurai was, meant the difference between living and dieing.

 

Like what part of dedicating and giving your life to the sword compared to doing it as a hobby is not being understood here?

 

 

Who do you put your money on, the guy who lives or dies by his sword every day of his life or the guy who is practicing the sword with friends in his back yard.

This is like a hair away from being a rhetorical question, seriously.

[Zentari]

First off, they didn't invent anything, they were almost learning it from a book.

Sorry but it doesn't work that way.Do a search for martial arts on the net and see how some of them (like fencing ) were reconstructed.Unless you are saying that one can learn and apply techniques from a book to IRL combat situations. If that's your case, best of luck with it.

 

Secondly...you completely missed the point. It's not about who invented the styles, it's about who used it and actually needed it. How good a Samurai was, meant the difference between living and dieing.

You are missing my point.Unless they needed it they wouldn't have done so.No , it's not as simple as giving the index page, it's about taking the forms , practicing , polishing/improving/removing as needed and then rince and repeat as needed until the forms are ready to be applied.This happened for a 100 years of nonstop war, a war if I might add, which was not been seen before or since.

It's also rather telling how the forms practiced from the Seanchan are still recognizable even if they have different names for them in comparison to the westland one's.

[Finnssss22]

First off, they didn't invent anything, they were almost learning it from a book.

Sorry but it doesn't work that way.Do a search for martial arts on the net and see how some of them (like fencing ) were reconstructed.Unless you are saying that one can learn and apply techniques from a book to IRL combat situations. If that's your case, best of luck with it.

 

So what you're saying is that the 100 years or so that LTT, Sammy and Be'lal "reconstructed" the art of the sword, that would mean more than what has happened over the last 3000 years that Lan has learned?

 

Secondly...you completely missed the point. It's not about who invented the styles, it's about who used it and actually needed it. How good a Samurai was, meant the difference between living and dieing.

You are missing my point.Unless they needed it they wouldn't have done so.No , it's not as simple as giving the index page, it's about taking the forms , practicing , polishing/improving/removing as needed and then rince and repeat as needed until the forms are ready to be applied.This happened for a 100 years of nonstop war, a war if I might add, which was not been seen before or since.

It's also rather telling how the forms practiced from the Seanchan are still recognizable even if they have different names for them in comparison to the westland one's.

 

Again, how does 100 years of developing the art compare to 3000?

And again, they DIDN'T need to at first, it was something they did as a hobby before the bore was even made into the DO's prison.

What part of it was a hobby are you not getting here?

Once the war started, they were Generals and more importantly channelers, how much daily use do you actually think they had with a sword?

On top of this, a front line soldier didn't even have the need to know how to use a sword until much later in the war.

 

The whole point of this entire argument was about Lan vs LTT, Sammy and Be'lal as swordsmen.

Lan kicks all their asses period. His dedication to and need for his sword is ten fold theirs, if not more.

[Elan Tedronai]

seriously Lan would eat LTT for breakfast. What's with this LTT worship? The man is highly decorated. But it seems all his accompkishments have taken people by the head. J

 

Hammer and coulin were blademasters. They taught Gawyn swordplay. And yet within months he killed his own teachers in one single night.

 

 

Just because LTT and belal were the first does not mean they are the best. Lan was born with a sword. He will kill you one on one with a sword.

[Zentari]

First off, they didn't invent anything, they were almost learning it from a book.

Sorry but it doesn't work that way.Do a search for martial arts on the net and see how some of them (like fencing ) were reconstructed.Unless you are saying that one can learn and apply techniques from a book to IRL combat situations. If that's your case, best of luck with it.

 

So what you're saying is that the 100 years or so that LTT, Sammy and Be'lal "reconstructed" the art of the sword, that would mean more than what has happened over the last 3000 years that Lan has learned?

 

No, what I AM saying is that to accomplish this one has to become a master AND more because he's the one developing.It is by no means " just read the manual" as you make it to be.As for what has happened all this years, that's up in the air,given the stagnancy the forms experienced in the Seanchan.

 

 

Again, how does 100 years of developing the art compare to 3000?

And again, they DIDN'T need to at first, it was something they did as a hobby before the bore was even made into the DO's prison.

What part of it was a hobby are you not getting here?

Once the war started, they were Generals and more importantly channelers, how much daily use do you actually think they had with a sword?

On top of this, a front line soldier didn't even have the need to know how to use a sword until much later in the war.

 

The whole point of this entire argument was about Lan vs LTT, Sammy and Be'lal as swordsmen.

Lan kicks all their asses period. His dedication to and need for his sword is ten fold theirs, if not more.

 

Still don't get what I'm saying.I'm not denying that it was a hobby, I'm pointing out that to turn that hobby into a working killing art requires way more dedication than some average westlander has.

 

I agree with you on Lan winning,I don't agree on the tenfold part.In fact, I think it would be pretty close.

[Entreri]

seriously Lan would eat LTT for breakfast. What's with this LTT worship? The man is highly decorated. But it seems all his accompkishments have taken people by the head. J

 

Hammer and coulin were blademasters. They taught Gawyn swordplay. And yet within months he killed his own teachers in one single night.

 

 

Just because LTT and belal were the first does not mean they are the best. Lan was born with a sword. He will kill you one on one with a sword.

 

 

We know that Rand beat Turak, a blademaster with little sword practice (a few months of practice at best). You underestimate the capabilities of the Dragon. Raw talent, physical prowess, being the Creator's champion, he had those in spades.

 

Which far more impressive than Galad and Gawyn with years of training with the sword (Bryne was a blademaster and he trained both young men prior to them coming to the Tower, see Gawyn's conversations with Gareth Bryne) or Gawyn defeating Hammar and Coulin. Gareth probably started training them in their teens, which would make sense looking at who they are and their future roles in the kingdom.

 

 

But against Be'lal: "Be'lal was better than he with the sword. Stronger. Faster. A true blademaster". You can bet the house that LTT was better if not much better than either Sammael (the scar of his face?) and Be'lal. Therefore dismissing the sword capabilities of AoLers out of hand is unreasonable.

 

LTT had no equal in AoL. He was so much above rest that in their crazy envy and jealousy, most of the male Forsaken went over to the Shadow because of this. Think about that for a second. There is only one man that all the Forsaken are terrified of: LTT.

 

The Creators have only ranked Rand before he gained all of LTT's memory...Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn.

 

While I agree that Lan is the better swordsman than LTT (at this point I have no doubt that Lan is as good as Jearom), it would be a close fight and who knows what ta'avern effect will play in this.

[Jon Paul]

LTT had no equal in AoL.

 

Pretty much.. yea. Sorry but the sun literally shined out of Lew Therin's arse. Girls swooned at the mere mention of his name and men as well at that. He was simply that damned good.

[MierinWru]

LTT had no equal in AoL.

 

Pretty much.. yea. Sorry but the sun literally shined out of Lew Therin's arse. Girls swooned at the mere mention of his name and men as well at that. He was simply that damned good.

 

I'm actually beginning to understand why some of the Forsaken hates his guts. LTT sounds like a very annoying person.

[Barid Bel Medar]

LTT had no equal in AoL.

 

Pretty much.. yea. Sorry but the sun literally shined out of Lew Therin's arse. Girls swooned at the mere mention of his name and men as well at that. He was simply that damned good.

 

I'm actually beginning to understand why some of the Forsaken hates his guts. LTT sounds like a very annoying person.

 

Thats why Demandred is my favorite. I know what he means, it must have been bloody annoying always being second by a hair. But I still like Rand/LTT, I just get what he is about.

 

 

Also, Lan could never win against Lews Therin. Lews was the Dragon. Taveren is in his nature, so yeah. (you cant have LTT/Rand without Taveren)

[Elan Tedronai]

I really sometimes wish Ishamael took the fool at paran disen. This constant hero worship of LTT gets me. creator's champion? Yeah no wonder the forsaken turned. I would have turned too.

 

whixh brings me back to something that always bothered me. If ishamael and LTT are equal in the power, then why LTT win? It seems RJ has no problems ranking his creations. Bur he can't prove it in words.

 

Just like the swordsmen. When he says rand was second only to lan when he had both hands, it just struck me as retarded. How can a shepherder suddenly become number 2 in such a short space of time? He didnt even have LTT memories to draw upon at the time

 

In the real world turak would have killed rand instantly.

 

 

seriously Lan would eat LTT for breakfast. What's with this LTT worship? The man is highly decorated. But it seems all his accompkishments have taken people by the head. J

 

Hammer and coulin were blademasters. They taught Gawyn swordplay. And yet within months he killed his own teachers in one single night.

 

 

Just because LTT and belal were the first does not mean they are the best. Lan was born with a sword. He will kill you one on one with a sword.

 

 

Which far more impressive than Galad and Gawyn with years of training with the sword (Bryne was a blademaster and he trained both young men prior to them coming to the Tower, see Gawyn's conversations with Gareth Bryne) or Gawyn defeating Hammar and Coulin. Gareth probably started training them in their teens, which would make sense looking at who they are and their future roles in the kingdom.

 

 

 

 

read book 3 again. The andoran princes were raw in regards to warder swordplay. gawyn and galad didnt learn the forms from bryne. They learned then from hammar and coulin

[Entreri]

I really sometimes wish Ishamael took the fool at paran disen. This constant hero worship of LTT gets me. creator's champion? Yeah no wonder the forsaken turned. I would have turned too.

 

whixh brings me back to something that always bothered me. If ishamael and LTT are equal in the power, then why LTT win? It seems RJ has no problems ranking his creations. Bur he can't prove it in words.

 

Just like the swordsmen. When he says rand was second only to lan when he had both hands, it just struck me as retarded. How can a shepherder suddenly become number 2 in such a short space of time? He didnt even have LTT memories to draw upon at the time

 

In the real world turak would have killed rand instantly.

 

 

seriously Lan would eat LTT for breakfast. What's with this LTT worship? The man is highly decorated. But it seems all his accompkishments have taken people by the head. J

 

Hammer and coulin were blademasters. They taught Gawyn swordplay. And yet within months he killed his own teachers in one single night.

 

 

Just because LTT and belal were the first does not mean they are the best. Lan was born with a sword. He will kill you one on one with a sword.

 

 

Which far more impressive than Galad and Gawyn with years of training with the sword (Bryne was a blademaster and he trained both young men prior to them coming to the Tower, see Gawyn's conversations with Gareth Bryne) or Gawyn defeating Hammar and Coulin. Gareth probably started training them in their teens, which would make sense looking at who they are and their future roles in the kingdom.

 

 

 

 

read book 3 again. The andoran princes were raw in regards to warder swordplay. gawyn and galad didnt learn the forms from bryne. They learned then from hammar and coulin

 

 

Hero worship? The Creator's champion is always the strongest, as proven throughout the series. If there was any hero worship, it was probably regarding the abilities of Galad and Gawyn.

 

Some thought Galad and Gawyn would destroy Rand quickly, Lan too, lol. It would be the other way around, Rand (two armed) would finish either in less than a minute, Lan even faster.

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if one-armed Rand took out Galad and Gawyn. He now has all of LTT's memories.

 

 

LTT vs. Ishamael:

 

 

Just because they are equal in power does not mean they are equal in SKILL.

 

Given that Demandred is "almost" LTT, if figures that he is more skilled than Ishamael. Otherwise, Ishamael = LTT, given that Ishamael is stronger than Demandred, unlikely he would have been so easily defeated in Paaran Disen. Lucky for Ishamael that LTT took pity on him.

 

 

Ishamael himself admits LTT defeated him and that he is inferior to LTT...only with sneak attack ability of the TP could Ishamael ever hope to defeat LTT.

 

 

Galad and Gawyn Warder training:

 

Nowhere in DR does it state that Galad and Gawyn learned the sword forms ONLY from the Warders: "training with the Warders" (DR, page 173).

 

Since Gareth Bryne trained them with the swords, he taught them the sword forms. Unless you think Gareth Bryne deceived them and taught them some useless fake forms to get them killed, which would be completely ridiculous. Obviously they intensified their training once they went to the Tower. Gareth would be too busy of a man to train them like that.

 

"Be careful, Gareth. I've learned a great deal since we last met. I think you'll find that your sword can no longer best mine as easily as it once did... I have no doubt of that. Light, boy! You always were a talented one" (TGS, p. 369).

[Entreri]

LTT had no equal in AoL.

 

Pretty much.. yea. Sorry but the sun literally shined out of Lew Therin's arse. Girls swooned at the mere mention of his name and men as well at that. He was simply that damned good.

 

lol. Pretty much. Even the hottest woman ever (strongest female AS ever, and possibly the most skilled female channeler ever) in Lanfear still can't take her mind off LTT.

 

The rest of the AS in AoL would be "so-called" or second rate compared to LTT, in this Age, it would third rate.

 

 

Rand Sedai went into the White Tower like a BOSS and played Egwene like a little dimwitted girl and Egwene is probably the strongest Amyrlin in 3000 years.

 

There is LTT and there is the rest.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if LTT would have even beaten Lan and Jearom, even though both are a little better. Only a fraction of a second is needed (tripping over a rock, wind gust etc) before LTT would run through the likes of Lan and Jearom. Ta'veren. It is highly doubtful that Lan and Jearom would be fools like their lessers in Valda and Ryne, but ta'veren effect can work in interesting ways.

 

Even a much weaker ta'veren, in a weakened state beat Galad and Gawyn.

[Elan Tedronai]

sigh,

Princes getting owned by one armed rand? I think your hero worship is clouding your brain. ishamael was the most powerful of the forsaken and equal to LTT. And yet the same ishy gets owned by rand in the first 3 books. RJ could not rank his characters effectively. A legend of AOL getting destroyed by a shepherder who has no recollection of being LTT or even his skill is just laughable. If you fail to see the problem with this then i think you are rand al thor himself.

 

 

By the way, you have missed the point in regards of the andoran princes and their training. Let me ask you a question. If gawyn didnt go to the tower in boook 3 would his status remained the same as of now or would he have been a different swordsman?

[Finnssss22]

Look, I'm not trying to say all the Randlander BM's are better than or even equal to LTT, Sammy and Be'lal. All I'm saying is that Lan is.

 

Lets look at some events.

 

Rand becomes very good but is still lacking against Be'lal in the Stone.

Then, a while later after more intensive training and practice with Lan, the Aiel and testing himself against multiple skilled opponents, he matches up with Toram Riatin pretty equally.

The same Toram Riatin that Lan dispatches in mere minutes. I don't know about you but that speaks volumes as to the ridiculous level of skill Lan holds.

 

I'm sorry but we're talking about a guy that was and has not only trained religiously with the sword since he could walk, over 40 years straight now, he has close to the same amount in actual battle experience where the sword was his main weapon.

Vs 3 guys that practiced the sword as a hobby, whose main weapon and means of fighting was through channeling anyway.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Bo Jackson laughs at all who discount the idea of being great at more than one thing.

[Finnssss22]

Bo Jackson laughs at all who discount the idea of being great at more than one thing.

 

Bo wasn't "great" at either sport, he was just good and maybe very good at times.

Either way, he was not the best and that's what we're talking about here.

He wasn't Jim Brown nor was he Willie Mays.

[Entreri]

sigh,

Princes getting owned by one armed rand? I think your hero worship is clouding your brain. ishamael was the most powerful of the forsaken and equal to LTT. And yet the same ishy gets owned by rand in the first 3 books. RJ could not rank his characters effectively. A legend of AOL getting destroyed by a shepherder who has no recollection of being LTT or even his skill is just laughable. If you fail to see the problem with this then i think you are rand al thor himself.

 

 

By the way, you have missed the point in regards of the andoran princes and their training. Let me ask you a question. If gawyn didnt go to the tower in boook 3 would his status remained the same as of now or would he have been a different swordsman?

 

With a one handed sword forms, and some time training, why wouldn't the DR beat either Galad or Gawyn? Now you are questioning the rankings of the Creator/RJ? LOL. LMAO!

 

 

Aren't you the one that said: "The dragon reborn right now would meet the same fate as those shaido aiel in dumai wells if he faces gawyn. Down and out within a few seconds"

 

 

More training+battle experience = one becoming a greater swordsman. The curve would be more logarithmic...nobody would have an exponential growth curve. Of course, Rand and and to a lesser Lan have also gotten better with the sword since then. And of course, recently Brandon has given his rankings.

 

 

/thread

[Finnssss22]

With a one handed sword forms, and some time training, why wouldn't the DR beat either Galad or Gawyn? Now you are questioning the rankings of the Creator/RJ? LOL. LMAO!

 

 

He's not arguing with the creator/RJ though. Rand's rank was dropped after losing his hand.