Amyrlin Egwene: The dirty little secrets

[Lena]

I think Egwene is a childish powerhungry scheming hypocrite little b****.

She learns a new technique for Tel'aran'rhiod from the equally annoying "Wise Ones", and the first thing she does is: use it to put down Nynaeve, who's probably the one with the best heart in the whole book, just to cover up her lies. That's totally disgusting I think, and the worst is, that she continues to do it. I wouldn't mind if she did this just once as a joke, but she uses it to gain an advantage over Nynaeve, instead of sharing the knowledge.

 

There were so many more bad actions by her, but I'd have to re-listen to the audiobooks to remember them.

 

I don't blame her for falling in love with the obviously completely retarded Gaywyn. You can't blame where love falls, and why shouldn't she have a mindless but pretty cute guy worship her?

 

Anyway, I still enjoy reading her parts very much, especially with the funny Siuan+Bryne and Salidar parts, and the re-taking of the white tower.

[alannalynn]

:o Wow, that was some Egwene hate. Once again though... The Greater Good. She knew what she had to do and she did it, no matter the costs. I know she was rather out-of-line at times, but whatever. If you knew what you had to do to achieve something that could save the world, would you be brave enough to do it? Or would you shrivel and die because you have no backbone to take on the White Tower?

 

(And for the Hott Fuzz fans... I repeat: The Greater Good...)

[Ishmayl]

:o Wow, that was some Egwene hate. Once again though... The Greater Good. She knew what she had to do and she did it, no matter the costs. I know she was rather out-of-line at times, but whatever. If you knew what you had to do to achieve something that could save the world, would you be brave enough to do it? Or would you shrivel and die because you have no backbone to take on the White Tower?

 

(And for the Hott Fuzz fans... I repeat: The Greater Good...)

 

The problem is, she has always just assumed that her "good" is greater than everyone else's "good."  And in my stance on ethics, you treat people as an ends unto themselves, not just as a means to an end, no matter how good that end is.  Egwene is probably my least favorite character in the series.

[alannalynn]

Okay, how would you have played it out if you were her, dealing with stubborn Aes Sedai and the sort?

[Ishmayl]

Okay, how would you have played it out if you were her, dealing with stubborn Aes Sedai and the sort?

 

Uh, hell if I know?  I'm not a politician, a fictional magician, or in Randland.  That doesn't mean I can't see and agree with the fact that she's doing just about everything wrong ethically and philosophically.  Just because I don't know every possible "better" way of foreign policy available to government officials of the USofA doesn't mean I can't realize that my favorite country in the world, the one I live in, is going down the shitter.

 

But I guarantee that, once again as is discussed in countless threads across these forums, a little of both Honesty and Humility in multiple situations would have helped her become a more likable character to me, and would have made her more of a hero and less of a bully (which is what I think she is now). 

[ravenfier]

the only one mentioned that would have deserved some sort of punishment was #3. Tho IMO I think that she was going to turn her over once she milked her of every little scrap of knowledge, then she would have taken a public penance. but then again with the treatment that she got once she was captured I think that that penance was delivered 5 fold- what was she up to before the seanchan attack 10 beatings a day?

 

1- she only did this with the sisters who were trying to manipulate her for there own purposes, and also as said before it was not on the Oath rod so- 1 it was not binding, and 2 it had been done before in tower history, 3 she will more than likely let those who did swear go of the oath now that the tower is whole.

2- I dont recal Suian telling her that the Red thing is a lie, so she is unaware of the lie for a lie.

4- She has the 4th Oath removed as soon as possible from all non BA sisters so not bad.

5- this has also happened in the past, some people will look at the situation with askanace(sp) but it is alowable.

[alannalynn]

Okay, how would you have played it out if you were her, dealing with stubborn Aes Sedai and the sort?

 

Uh, hell if I know?  I'm not a politician, a fictional magician, or in Randland.  That doesn't mean I can't see and agree with the fact that she's doing just about everything wrong ethically and philosophically.  Just because I don't know every possible "better" way of foreign policy available to government officials of the USofA doesn't mean I can't realize that my favorite country in the world, the one I live in, is going down the shitter.

 

But I guarantee that, once again as is discussed in countless threads across these forums, a little of both Honesty and Humility in multiple situations would have helped her become a more likable character to me, and would have made her more of a hero and less of a bully (which is what I think she is now). 

Okay okay, I understand where you're coming from, but I just believe that when you critique someone, you should be willing to say how it should have been done. It's like completing your reasoning. I don't believe in judging someone harshly without having your own plan if you were in the situation. Does that make sense or am I rambling?

[farthammer]

I don't understand how no one gets tired of talking about Egwene because she doesn't and hasn't really done anything, who cares if she manipulates other AS they are even worse than she is.  All she does is sit around and play armchair general and thinks up dumb shit for the most part.  What other AS out there would you like to be Amyrlin that would also want the job?

[Suttree]

I don't understand how no one gets tired of talking about Egwene because she doesn't and hasn't really done anything, who cares if she manipulates other AS they are even worse than she is.  All she does is sit around and play armchair general and thinks up dumb shit for the most part.  What other AS out there would you like to be Amyrlin that would also want the job?

 

Fart have you read TGS? Seems to me like she is the reason the White Tower is still standing. That "raid" could have turned into complete destruction with how inept most of the AS response was. Not a huge fan but her battle with the Seanchan has to count for something.

[farthammer]

Yeah sorry I should have clarified that I was talking about the majority of her criticisms come from books that are not TGS.  That was when I switched from hatred to acceptance because even hating her got real boring.

[Durinax]

TGS she was an armchair general until the seanchan raid, when all she did was open up the cannons basically, which coincidentally she technically broke the oath against using the power as a weapon, since her life was not in imminate danger when she was flinging the power out the side of the tower

[Hadilmir]

TGS she was an armchair general until the seanchan raid, when all she did was open up the cannons basically, which coincidentally she technically broke the oath against using the power as a weapon, since her life was not in imminate danger when she was flinging the power out the side of the tower

For the third or fourth time, lol- The lives of other Aes Sedai were in danger, in case you missed the bound Greens trying to fight back. Then the Seanchan retaliated against her specifically, so she herself was in imminent danger. I feel like the Egwene arguments go in circles, maybe I should start using different counter answers.  :)

[farthammer]

Durinax hasn't even looked at the oaths I don't think.

 

I will help you:

 

1. To speak no word that is not true

2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

[Nizawiza]

The King makes the rules, the people disobey them. King stomps on a few necks, then hangs a couple other people for being murderers, puts a couple more people in jail for extortion of the people... Hypocritic but good politics.

[Durinax]

Durinax hasn't even looked at the oaths I don't think.

 

I will help you:

 

1. To speak no word that is not true

2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

so your saying that when the seanchan where in retreat that she was defending her life and those of other sisters, when what she was actually doing was blasting retreating raken and quite possibly killing AS? I take the part about life literally, defending their way of life is just too broad for the oath to be effective.

[farthammer]

Belief is what matters, I don't defend the oaths themselves because they are full of loopholes, but Egwene was not violating them here herself.

[Durinax]

Belief is what matters, I don't defend the oaths themselves because they are full of loopholes, but Egwene was not violating them here herself.

well I cant see her as believing her life was in imminant danger from the seanchan when they are in full retreat. She could see such right before she blacked out also IMO

[yoniy0]

She could see such right before she blacked out also IMO

Could you please repeat that?

[Hadilmir]

Since the Oath Rod binds perception, you can't really break them. If a paranoid Aes Sedai has schizophrenia she could attack every deer she sees, she isn't breaking the Oaths. To her, those deer endanger her life in some crazy person logic. So, if Egwene sees attacking the retreating Seanchan, because they won't attack again if she hurts them enough, as a attempt to save future sisters' lives she can blast them however she wants. Regardless of her being bound or not.

 

Other Aes Sedai may fault her for it, but again, she's the only competent choice for an Amyrlin during TG. What can they do?  :-\

[farthammer]

Belief is what matters, I don't defend the oaths themselves because they are full of loopholes, but Egwene was not violating them here herself.

well I cant see her as believing her life was in imminant danger from the seanchan when they are in full retreat. She could see such right before she blacked out also IMO

 

Once again read the BIG BOLD WORDS.

[Luckers]

I'm inclined to agree with Durinax for the most part--had Egwene been bound by the Oaths she would have found her fight more difficult. Definately blasting to'raken when they were retreating would be out, as would killing the sul'dam who was leashing Adelorna--the woman was in no way endangering anyone's life at that point--though I do agree that the 'protecting fellow Aes Sedai' would have allowed for blasting to'raken on the approach to the Tower.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

I'm inclined to agree with Durinax for the most part--had Egwene been bound by the Oaths she would have found her fight more difficult. Definately blasting to'raken when they were retreating would be out, as would killing the sul'dam who was leashing Adelorna--the woman was in no way endangering anyone's life at that point--though I do agree that the 'protecting fellow Aes Sedai' would have allowed for blasting to'raken on the approach to the Tower.

But the Oaths would be binding her, not you. Egwene, being the paranoid ptsd Aes Sedai she is, would see killing any Seanchan as justified because to her, their way of life is a threat to Aes Sedai. Would that hold up if the Hall actually tried her for it? Not at all. She could have done it bound by the Oaths, but I doubt anyone else could.

[Senexx]

how did she know retreating to'raken weren't just rallying for a strike?

[Durinax]

how did she know retreating to'raken weren't just rallying for a strike?

she couldnt have but that doesnt matter because she isnt supposed to be able to use the power to fight unless they are attacking/threatening her life at the moment

 

 

[ravenfier]

ah but as some one has stated she does have PTSD. With PTSD a persons view on certian events would be seen from a different angle than from the view of someone with out PTSD. To Egwene any Seanchan is a direct threat to her. Just think back to Book 10 and her reaction to the possiblity of a Seanchan helping her. Her striking out is well within the bounds of the 3 Oaths due to her mental state.