What is Ishamael?

[yoniy0]

But how would he have known this? Not only would there be billions upon billions of souls, but for all he knew he was a good guy at the previous turnings. Thats why what he is saying is something he either has made up to justify his thoughts, or the Dark One told him and Ishamael accepted it.

The idea was, when you have infinitely many past turns, anything is possible, so everything has indeed happened before. This isn't mathematically robust, I admit, but you see my point.

 

I'm going entirely off of the books here, I haven't read most of RJ's interviews. If anyone wants to point me in the direction of some, I would love to though

Yey, my favorite comment. Look here, you'll find more than you'll have time to go through, and nicely indexed: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

 

Also, in FoH, Graendal says that Rand being the Dragon Reborn is something that has never happened before, one single person being reborn like that. SO that sounds like this is the only time he has ever been reborn through the Ages.

What she says is that a specific man's rebirth being foretold had never happened before. Rebirth happens all the time.

Firstly, Graendal (or was it Semirhage in 'A Wooden Box') is speaking from her own experience, so we shouldn't take that to mean nothing of the sorts ever happened before the AoL. Only that Rand is the only occurrence in the 2nd and 3rd ages.

Secondly, Graendal did mention in TGS prologue that had things gone differently, Demandred might've been the Dragon. This makes me think that the title itself was awarded to Lews Therin somehow, in a way that it was (at least apparently) possible for someone else to achieve it.

[Luckers]

The title of Dragon was a name given by the Age of Legenders to Lews Therin as leader of the light in the War of the Shadow. It was not given because they recognised his nature as the champion of the light, nor is it the name given to the champion of the light (which is why Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and not the Dragon. He is Lews Therin reborn, yet both were the champion of the light).

 

What Graendal was saying was that Demandred might well have been the one leading the light in the Age of Legends, not that he could ever have been the reborn hero spun out by the wheel.

[yoniy0]

Oh, yeah, I agree, that's why I made it clear I was speaking of the title. As to exactly how Lews Therin came to be known as the Dragon, do you have any information source to go by?

[Fains nose]

It doesnt matter what you call Rand; Rand al'Thor, Dragon, Gary Coleman, the point is i was under the impression that he was a soul that is reborn over and over to fight the shadow (see Veigns Of Gold chapter) , and that he is like the creators agent on earth, and i was wondering is Ishamael his shadow equivelant

[FarShainMael]

Oh, yeah, I agree, that's why I made it clear I was speaking of the title. As to exactly how Lews Therin came to be known as the Dragon, do you have any information source to go by?

 

At the end of the EotW Prologue, there are two, apparently opposed, excerpts from Fourth Age writings.

 

From 'The Breaking of the World':

 

'All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.'

 

Sounds as though LTT was hated for what he and the other male channellers did after they went insane. And yet..

 

From 'The Cycle of the Dragon':

'..let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come.. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time'.

 

This time they're begging the Dragon to save them.. as he did 'in ages past' and will 'in ages to come'.

 

Sounds like the Dragon has been around for Ages.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oh, yeah, I agree, that's why I made it clear I was speaking of the title. As to exactly how Lews Therin came to be known as the Dragon, do you have any information source to go by?

 

At the end of the EotW Prologue, there are two, apparently opposed, excerpts from Fourth Age writings.

 

From 'The Breaking of the World':

 

'All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.'

 

Sounds as though LTT was hated for what he and the other male channellers did after they went insane. And yet..

 

From 'The Cycle of the Dragon':

'..let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come.. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time'.

 

This time they're begging the Dragon to save them.. as he did 'in ages past' and will 'in ages to come'.

 

Sounds like the Dragon has been around for Ages.

 

 

No.

 

Thats just whsat they knew the CoL to be called.

 

RJ said that CoL and the Dragon are not the same thing, so it would be the CoL who would have saved them from ages past, not the Dragon anyway, which means that they only knew him as the Dragon.

 

Memories and the past ages are forgotten, they would not know if the CoL was called the Dragon, again, it is a name they gave LTT, and thus, as LTT is the only CoL that is remembered when the prophecies were written, the next CoL is called the Dragon Reborn

[OptimusPrime]

It doesnt matter what you call Rand; Rand al'Thor, Dragon, Gary Coleman, the point is i was under the impression that he was a soul that is reborn over and over to fight the shadow (see Veigns Of Gold chapter) , and that he is like the creators agent on earth, and i was wondering is Ishamael his shadow equivelant

 

I dont think Ishamael is the official Champion of the Dark across different Ages. Although I love the way the Dragon vs Nae'blis is playing out with the fact that Ishamael fought two incarnations of the Champion of the Light, and Rand has killed the Champion of the Dark and then became connected to their reincarnation... I love every second of the Dragon vs Nae'blis subplot, and TGS did wonders for it.

 

What I do think is that the Chosen are the Dark Ones equivalent of Heroes of the Horn. In a way that would align Ishamael with Artur Hawkwing, which feels derogatory towards Ishamael... The Heroes threads are spun out and naturally woven back into the Pattern, but the Dark One whos unnatural to the Pattern can reinsert the threads of his Chosen if they die. Strangely enough this line of thought is partly why I think Rand may not have seen  "Moridin" when he channeled the True Power.

 

Anyway, Im positive I read something that Brandon said, about Ishamaels thread being attracted to Rands thread in the many turnings of the Wheel. Did anyone else see that? Im not sure it was real because I cant find it anywhere, but I could have sworn that I read that interview on Dragonmount.

[Demiandre]

Indeed! I followed a link posted in one of the topics of this board, and it led me to theoryland with a wonderful database of RJ's interviews (and BS's, too) and read the same comment about Rand and Ishamael's threads having been woven together very often in many Ages.

[yoniy0]

I didn't hear the question but someone asked something about Rand's and Moridin's souls being intertwined. Sanderson said that many souls' threads are frequently woven together in the Pattern such as Birgitte and Gaidal. He said that Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern.

Taken from Theoryland Interview Database.

[OptimusPrime]

Indeed! I followed a link posted in one of the topics of this board, and it led me to theoryland with a wonderful database of RJ's interviews (and BS's, too) and read the same comment about Rand and Ishamael's threads having been woven together very often in many Ages.

 

Awesome!

 

Yoniy0, thats the one, thanks very much.

 

This, I think, doesnt mean Ishamael is always Nae'blis, maybe that they often work against each other yet somehow Ishamael can always provide something, this time being access to the True Power, which I think is what will enable Rand to instigate his encounter with the Dark One, as well as he provides a way to survive death this time.

[Vermillion]

If there souls are tied together then maybe he is right about the battles. 

 

We dont know how many times per 7 age cycle the DO is involved.  I would be interested in how many times Rand is reborn per cycle, how many times as "dragon" type figure.  Was LTT ta'veren?  Did he ever realize he was champion of light type figure or just a guy trying to stop something. 

 

Moridin believes in the number game that eventually the DO will win by default of unlimited chances to try. He has even said that if it doesnt happen this age it will happen. All the other Choosen want power, while he wants time to end.

 

I wonder if he will come to the point where he realizes the pattern has more control and insures its survival.  Ta'veren grants almost immortality while under the effect despite any odds.  Even if Rand turned he would likely turn back or unintentially reseal the DO.

[OptimusPrime]

Moridin believes in the number game that eventually the DO will win by default of unlimited chances to try. He has even said that if it doesnt happen this age it will happen. All the other Choosen want power, while he wants time to end.

 

I wonder if he will come to the point where he realizes the pattern has more control and insures its survival.  Ta'veren grants almost immortality while under the effect despite any odds.  Even if Rand turned he would likely turn back or unintentially reseal the DO.

 

I agree, I think the only way for the Dark One to break free is if Rand wants it to happen. Rands frame of mind is the key, it affects the Pattern, if Rand was turned Dark officially I find the likelihood of him wanting the Dark One free are still minimal. Rand would likely have become a Forsaken still acting on his own whims, too sefish to be truly loyal, the fact that Rand began acting like Ishamael is the kind of detail that I think hasnt occurred before. In VoG he began to want it to end, the only reason he stopped was because Lewis reminded him about love and second chances. That scene in VoG, in my oppinion, signalled that the Dark One has little chance of breaking free now. Rand has suffered through the worst and fixed himself, the only thing now is to forcibly turn him, but that Ishamael frame of mind is gone for good I think, and they needed the Champion of Light in that state because his will affects the Pattern. So Turned Evil Rand wouldnt be good enough, it had to be Randimael (hahahahaha)

 

Train of thought...

 

The famous "Ishamael is less than half-human" line. Im sure most will agree its the True Powers doing.

 

Lets say that it scours away your humanity. I think it might be that because you are of the Pattern, channeling he True Power through you begins to erode your of-the-Pattern-ness. Thus Ishamael was sealed, but not properly, as a result of his thread originating from the Pattern yet blackened by the True Power, now possessing potential Shadowspan qualities.

 

The insane bit is... what if Ishamael was immune to Ta'verensm, what if his thread could no longer be steered by the Wheel, hence his success at pulling down the likes of Hawkwing?

[Skeeve the Great]

I don't think there was other Dragons in previous ages, though (I'm going entirely off of the books here, I haven't read most of RJ's interviews. If anyone wants to point me in the direction of some, I would love to though ). The only time we hear of other Dragons is from Ishamael, in EotW, but when he mentions previous 'Dragons' he uses names like Guaire Amalasan and Yurian and Logain...false dragons and men who could channel, but not real Dragons, any of them. Plus from the same Age.

 

Also, in FoH, Graendal says that Rand being the Dragon Reborn is something that has never happened before, one single person being reborn like that. SO that sounds like this is the only time he has ever been reborn through the Ages.

 

Which supports the idea that while the CoL may be spun out again and again, the Dragon is, in fact, only one example of him and, essentially, only a title.

 

Actually, there is another source - Arthur Hawkwing. In the Great Hunt he says something like: "We are called by the Horn. But we follow the Banner. And the Dragon."

 

So, apparently, Heroes of the Horn, which predates the Age of Legends by who knows how many cycles of the Wheel, follow the Dragon. It means there were Dragons in past Ages. And this Dragon is always the soul of LTT (and Rand).

[Dashain_is_your_daddy]

I think there's a fairly obvious point here that everyone is overlooking: the Pattern, and not the Dark One, decides when and where souls are reborn.  So the Dark One can't have a champion in the same way that the Light can.  The Light can have a champion because the Pattern can conjure up the Dragon-soul and give it Super Ta'veren Power whenever it likes.  The Dark One does not have a similar ability.  He has to work with what happens to be available at any given point in time.

 

So, Ishamael is not a dark version of Rand.  He's just some dude who one night after Moons Over my Paaren Disen did some math on his Denny's napkin and decided "to hell with it, I don't want to wait around for another thousand turnings of the Wheel, let's blow this sucker up RIGHT NOW".

 

As an aside, seems pretty obvious to me that Ishy is RJ's way of saying that post-modernism leads inexorably to nihilism (via the conviction that all human actions are futile and fundamentally meaningless).  Anyone know if he was religious at all?  

[OptimusPrime]

As an aside, seems pretty obvious to me that Ishy is RJ's way of saying that post-modernism leads inexorably to nihilism (via the conviction that all human actions are futile and fundamentally meaningless).  Anyone know if he was religious at all? 

 

Im not sure if he was religeous but I read an interview once where he was asked if the characters began to dictate or some such, and RJs reply was that he was an "Old Testament God" with his fist firmly at the centre of the characters lives or some such, not sure if you can pull anything from that.

 

I personally dont think Ishamael is a representation of any major undertone other than evil being possibly as necessary as good.

[Dashain_is_your_daddy]

The titles of Ishy's books ("perceived meaning", "deconstruction" etc.) seem to me like pretty overt references to "post-modernism" (understood in a very broad sense).  And his fixation on the unbearableness of eternal recurrence is very Nietzschean.  So I do think there's something there.

[Duskfire]

As I pointed out, RJ has stated that everyone has a free will, the Pattern does not force people to be evil. Therefore, Ishamael could not be a champion of the dark because it goes against the idea of the Pattern in the first place. Him and Rand are still easily tied, but for all we know for every age except AOL they were best friends. The Dark One does not control threads, only souls, yet even that seems to be limited.

 

And Ishy is still part of the Pattern. Look at how important the Seanchan are, who wouldn't exist without him manipulating Hawkwing. Just because the Pattern allows a ta`veren to be killed or to be manipulated doesn't mean the other person is somehow immune to the effects of them. I really think that people are making him out to be this unique person that spans history, when in reality he is probably someone who just got swindled by the Dark One into believing that he had done this before, countless times.

[Vassili]

Lets say Ishy is the Champion of the Dark. That doesn't necessarily violate his free will, because he WANTS to be the Champion of the Dark. In fact, that would be WHY he is the champion, and not some other guy with less dedication.

 

If Ishidin's free will is violated by making him Champion of the Dark, then Rand's (or whoever's job it is) free will would be equally violated by making him the Champion of the Light.

 

On a seperate note, I do think that the "Dragon" is more than just a title. When the DO refers to Rand while talking to Demandred, he says, "DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON." Not, THE CHAMPION OF THE LIGHT. Furthermore, as was previously mentioned, Artur Hawkwing says he must follow the Dragon Banner, not the Champion of the Light's Banner.

 

I don't know where it was said that the Champion of the Light and the Dragon are not the same thing. But IF that is true it would suggest to me:

 

1.) They are two seperate beings

 

-or-

 

2.) The Champion of the Light may exist in every age, but he is only the Dragon in the ages where he directly confronts the DO

[OptimusPrime]

2.) The Champion of the Light may exist in every age, but he is only the Dragon in the ages where he directly confronts the DO

 

This. Pretty sure RJ said in an interview that the soul of the Dragon can be spun out normally, that it doesnt always have Dragon status in every single incarnation. So Id guess that Rand gained access to the memories of all the Dragon-activated past lives in VoG.

[Ashaman_Axel]

You guys are awesome!!! I really enjoy reading your posts here. What I read here made me rethink about my favorite Forsaken. I was a Sammael guy before, now I find Ishy to be such a mystery I can't wait to read what he'll come up with during AMoL.

 

I guess the only real way to understand Ishy's machinations with finality would be to be an experienced Philosopher too. But him being a philosopher during AoL makes him more enigmatic in his current role as Nae'blis.

[FarShainMael]

If Ishidin's free will is violated by making him Champion of the Dark, then Rand's (or whoever's job it is) free will would be equally violated by making him the Champion of the Light.

 

Recall the Creator's words at the end of tEotW:

 

'ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL'.

(caps as original)

 

I, too, agree that the Dragon has been around for Ages, though I agree not necessarily continuously. See the excerpts from 4th Age writings at the end of the EotW Prologue.

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

On a seperate note, I do think that the "Dragon" is more than just a title. When the DO refers to Rand while talking to Demandred, he says, "DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON." Not, THE CHAMPION OF THE LIGHT. Furthermore, as was previously mentioned, Artur Hawkwing says he must follow the Dragon Banner, not the Champion of the Light's Banner.

 

I don't know where it was said that the Champion of the Light and the Dragon are not the same thing. But IF that is true it would suggest to me:

 

1.) They are two seperate beings

 

-or-

 

2.) The Champion of the Light may exist in every age, but he is only the Dragon in the ages where he directly confronts the DO

 

With regards to the DO talking to Demandred, he says, who THEY call the Dragon, which is the only name that the Forsaken and 3rd Agers know the CoL as. That does not prove that he was always called the Dragon.

 

Also where does it say the HoV predates the AoL, I dont think its  right. I may be wrong however. As for following the Dragon Banner, remember, thats only what the AoL and 3rd age know it as, rember that Hawkwing was born AFTER the AoL as was all of the other heroes, and they call themselves Hawkwing etc.. Who were not born before AoL.

 

Finally, remember right from the start Birgitte only had lives post breaking, to the founding of the WT, and is now forgetting them, but at first, when she was still a HotH, the earliest memories were post AoL, suggesting that the HoV was post AoL, and that the HotH do not know anything before the AoL, thus they would only know the Banner as the Dragons.

 

 

As for the rest, if the Dragon was in every age, which I still dont think is right, then both 1 or 2 is possible

[Duskfire]

also where does it say the HoV predates the AoL, I dont think its  right.

 

RJ: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real.

 

 

 

[Skeeve the Great]

Also where does it say the HoV predates the AoL, I dont think its  right. I may be wrong however. As for following the Dragon Banner, remember, thats only what the AoL and 3rd age know it as, rember that Hawkwing was born AFTER the AoL as was all of the other heroes, and they call themselves Hawkwing etc.. Who were not born before AoL.

 

Finally, remember right from the start Birgitte only had lives post breaking, to the founding of the WT, and is now forgetting them, but at first, when she was still a HotH, the earliest memories were post AoL, suggesting that the HoV was post AoL, and that the HotH do not know anything before the AoL, thus they would only know the Banner as the Dragons.

 

The Horn predates the Age of Legends. It was said so by RJ and there are clues in the books about Heroes of the Horn that mentioned other ages than Age of Legends. For example, Brigitte mentioned that Moggy was threatening her in the War of Power about knowing were hunt her. Also, there are brother and sister among the Heroes that are called are heralds of the new Age. It surely does seems as there were more than one Age before the current one to be called such names.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, I am wrong in that. Fair enough.

 

On another note, the Dragon cannot be a soul.

 

Rand and LTT were the soul reborn of the Champion of light that gets spun out to fight the dark one.

 

They were also the Dragon.

 

RJ said that teh CoL and Dragon are not the same thing.

 

Thus, the Dragon cannot be a soul reborn all the time, because Rand and LTT were the CoL reborn.

 

This then means, the Dragon was only a title used to describe LTT and, since the world only knew the last CoL as the Dragon, called him the Dragon Reborn.

 

Its like if our own world were the wheel of time.

Take Jesus for example, if he were spun out with each age, we dont remember him as anything but Jesus, so our prophecies wouldnt say, "the universal champion of the Creator's identity" we would say, Jesus Reborn.

It still doesnt make him "jesus" every time he is spun out, its only a name that our "age" has called the "universal champion" by.