[DPR Mafia] Suras 4 - Mafia wins!

[Alys Kinch]

that's a weird argument... why would game mechanics say everyone gets one if he took some away?

 

everyone getting a view actually works for several reasons, some of which have been demonstrated. two or more people may view the same person (Pandy, lily) and take away different feelings on the view. plus it's a wasted view in that now everyone in the game won't be viewed. plus we've shown that not everyone will work together to ensure that everyone gets viewed. and it's just fun to what if due to most people feeling the finder should have viewed someone else. there is also the whole tool approach where now you know about your biggest suspect at the point where you can't withhold thw weapon any longer.

 

so... why that argument?

[Jeran]

I'm going to switch my vote for now to allow Adella a chance to speak. [glow=red,2,300]Unvote:  Vote No Lynch[/glow] ( I don't really want that to be my final vote, but I don't have time now to decide on a person)

 

If there are black hearts around Minister, Bova and Beva why are there votes on Adella/Meesh simply because they are Bonda Perrada?  I suppose they may have a slightly higher chance of being scum since they are not the Minister, Bova or Beva.  (Do we know if those roles are in the game?  Or are they just part of the story?)

 

This assuming the story is being interpreted correctly.

[Alys Kinch]

I get that her viewing seemed weird; several of us said that. i get not liking or understanding the mechanics, but it's weird to call them a lie.

[Alys Kinch]

wait, i thought pandy viewed adella. he used pronouns though. which pandy??

[mmeeshal]

I'm going to switch my vote for now to allow Adella a chance to speak. [glow=red,2,300]Unvote:  Vote No Lynch[/glow] ( I don't really want that to be my final vote, but I don't have time now to decide on a person)

 

If there are black hearts around Minister, Bova and Beva why are there votes on Adella/Meesh simply because they are Bonda Perrada?  I suppose they may have a slightly higher chance of being scum since they are not the Minister, Bova or Beva.  (Do we know if those roles are in the game?  Or are they just part of the story?)

 

This assuming the story is being interpreted correctly.

What?

 

Oh, DM's being dumb, I missed Pandy's post.  Didn't even know I had a vote on me. :D

 

At any rate, he viewed Adella, not me, and got a Bonda Perrada result for Adella as well, so he doesn't think that the coroner report will give us anything different.

 

no need to vote for her. I cop investigated her and she's Bonda Perrada, so I think that's what we'd get from the coroner, too.

 

[glow=red,2,300]Vote Meesh[/glow]

Why are you voting for me, Pandy?  And incidentally, I think the coroner report WOULD give us something different than just Bonda Perrada.  I have hinted at it already, but I know Bela was a CAPTAIN, and she is listed as "Town" in the post with the list of players.  She probably would have showed up as "Captain" with a viewing, if a clear result was given, and we know HER alignment.  So, why, then, would we expect something totally different from Adella's death scene/coroner report?

[mmeeshal]

Oh, shoot. Code fail! :D

[Barmacral]

Basically my internet has been crazy and I didn't read about her viewing. I still don't believe it 100% or even 85% to tell the truth. I think it is a little to convenient and the way Lily coupled her viewing with fishing for reactions seems off.

 

But I don't think everyone has a viewing, I think that is a guess that may or may not be true, but it has opened the door for an epic mafia win. That way if Player x is mafia they can say the viewed player y and clear them as innocent or get a dangerous player lynched. The can also keep reusing the role claim. I don't see Wes giving everyone a viewing because it would end the game rather quickly. Innocents can nominate someone for a viewing during day and run through people and then make for a rather quick defeat of the scum.

 

So I am not on board with the everyone gets a viewing thing.

 

Um, except that Wes already told us straight up that everyone gets 1 viewing, 1 doc protect and 1 vig kill.

[Alys Kinch]

i meant to ask about that. how do we know she was a captain? did i miss it in the scene?

[Jeran]

I need to read better.  I thought pandy viewed Meesh and that was why he was voting for her.

 

My main point, though, is why is Bonda automatically bad.  We have mod hints that there are mafia in all groups.

[Alys Kinch]

boo! i said that and you ignored me. *cries cause barms is a big copy cat*

[Red2111]

okay i'll post what i have now, more to come  :-\

 

Just a theory...Wes said we had to vote, I'm wondering that if we vote no lynch we all go tonight, he said something to that extent on the end of Day 1 post. Maybe if there is a lynch other things happen...it's just a thought!

 

Al, I have to ask you, what you meant about 'cloudy' result on Raisa? I didn't get it!

 

And a bonestone isn't just about protection! ;D

 

I think this it what happened to me last night, I went “No Lynch” and my view was wasted with a cloudy result, with the bronestone being the reason.

 

It might be the bronestone has a roleblocking effect to it; either directing itself to those who don’t vote and/or vote “no lynch” or blocking any actions directed at the person it’s being used to protect (like an “Insane Finder”)

 

I'm thinking that the viewing result gives the 'faction' which is not the same as the alignment, as has been suggested.  Either way, it sounds like we're not going to get a clear-cut 'mafia' result from viewings.

 

I think in this case Faction=Alignment, especially with this game being political in nature.  We know there are 3 defined groups: Minister Supporters, Challenger Supporters & Undecided (with manipulators mixed in among each faction to achieve their hidden agenda); so it makes sense that when the finder gets a good result that isn’t blocked, it would correspond with what faction their aligned with. 

 

It’s still undetermined which candidate is the Scum Canidate, so we don’t know for sure which group we need to be weary of.  All we know is that Bova is the Challengers and Beva is the instituted gov.  Wes has yet to clearly define which candidate will win this for us, and I don’t think he will either, it would make it to easy.

 

For those that don’t know me, if I must vote and I don’t have enough info, I throw my vote away. Otherwise, I don’t vote. I don’t like killing people because it’s what the crowd is doing. It’s stupid. Like I said in the first post, which was cut out (conveniently) no lynch is a preference thing that should be avoided if we have info. We don’t, so not really a words vs action thing. But enjoy killing me.

 

Fair enough, but at the same time with the little info we have, it’s a slight slip up that might catch us scum ;)  of course i think you’re sharp and I don’t see you letting something that obvious slide out unless on purpose.

 

I agree about the bandwagon thing, when there is a no lynch option and you don’t agree with lynching the person who the bandwagon is on due to lack of hard evidence or that person hasn’t really pinged your radar, it’s best to let the finder sort it out to avoid losing a townie.

 

So I wasn't expecting this answer but...I asked DPR to clarify what "Captain" means. It is an alignment or Faction. 

 

Seeing Wes’s clarification on this it only cements the idea for me.  But because of the manipulators spread through out each faction having one alignment or the other doesn’t mean that person is scum or town, it just means when they vote in the ballot, that’s the candidate they’re likely to support at the time you viewed them (not taking into account those moral delima’s and such people keep bringing up)

 

So until we know which candidate is scum, we have to just take the findings as information and with a grain of salt.

 

Wes said that there would be some town, some mafia, and some undecided, to use the non-political terms.  So I'd think the readings would be town/beva, mafia/bova, or undecided/captain.  My guess is that Al Jenn got a town/beva reading since he said specifically town and "captain" seems pretty neutral due to everyone in the game being a captain.  I think those who read captain are essentially unalligned, but it's hard to tell without knowing their win condition what should be done with them.  It could be as simple as "vote for the candidate that wins" but with the 10 amber glass folks I'm doubting it's that simple.

 

^^ I’m glad to see you and I are on the same page with this :)  and it is as simple as “Vote for this candidate and win, Wes says so in the rules.  One Candidate will be scum and the other will be town; to follow this logic, it would mean the alignment of the candidate voted for would determine which side wins.  But it’s up to us to decide which candidate is scum via the clues Wes gives us.  And I agree about the 10 manipulators, chances are its them that’s the true Mafia, not the beva or bonda factions.  Those are probably distractions and pawns in the bigger picture.

 

This game sucks. :D  You get a viewing of someone, and you don't even know for sure if they're a good guy or not! :D

 

I think that faction is probably not indicative of "town" or "mafia" alignment.  As has been suggested before, there are probably mafia sprinkled about among each faction.

 

If I'm wrong, and one faction is actually a mafia faction, then... I think a Captain is someone we should keep alive.

 

**edit new post**

First of all, I really don't think we can say for sure that Beva is Town, and Bova is mafia.  Where's the proof of that?  Also, Captain does not mean unaligned, I can tell you that.

 

Again, i can’t agree more :)  it certainly fits right along with my line of thinking.  With the win conditions being dependant on the Candidates (who I think are NPC’s in this game btw instead of actual players)  we should use our findings to focus on information gathering as opposed to scum hunting; then once we have enough evidence to determine which candidate is scum, take out their followers we know about via lynches and VK’s.

 

Right now the captains should be preserved; but that’s only until the Moral Delima comes up …  then we’ll have to pay attention to the story and decide our course of action from there.

 

Keep in mind, anyone can vote for either candidate, no matter their starting alignment.

 

Very true, there is the free will aspect that plays into it.  And with the moral delima’s while a persons alignment wont change they might have a win condition attached to who they vote for.

 

I think though, given the game is political, the alignments will give us a lot of information come ballot time

 

wow, that was a lot of reading for so few pages! 

 

I really don't think that using they instead of we is a mistake that alys would make if she were scum.  I'm not saying she isn't scum,  just that this slip doesn't do the convincing for me.

 

As far as the mafia using all of their VKs in one night, I didn't think that would be very productive for them in the long run.  Sure it would have helped out their numbers but it would have narrowed our suspect list down too much for them to gain much.  In my opinion they will save those for later on after finding out which player are less active and which players are more proactive.  Plus I think they will pick players that are more influential. 

 

I mentioned this earlier in my post, about Alys and I agree 100%

 

Also about the VKs and scum, that’s a good point.  But it also depends on how experienced and devious the mafia is as well as how they’re willing to use the given abilities and how well their working together and communicating.

 

Oh. My thoughts based on story line that the Captains are the manipulators and the beva are the minister's men while the bova are the challenger's men. So we want Beva, we need to figure out Bova and Captains, right?

 

Based on?? I kinda see where captains come from, but more like they are manipulators rather than unaligned. But the rest, what's your angle on that?

 

I disagree.  We’re all Captains from the beginning, some of us have chosen to side with a faction (Minister/Beva or Challenger/Bova) while others remain undecided; imo this is predetermined and issued by Wes at the beginning of the game.  I think the Bonda and Beva supporter alignment is only to show which group a person has aligned themselves with atm; because we are all Captains, those who haven’t aligned themselves would be referred to as only Captains.

 

If you look at Bela’s death scene it states “she wasn’t part of this” meaning she hadn’t chosen a side yet.

 

It also implies that not choosing a side could be a bad option as well.

 

[mmeeshal]

i meant to ask about that. how do we know she was a captain? did i miss it in the scene?

I know.  Plus, her death scene did imply she was a captain.  If my internet was working better, I'd go back and quote it, but if someone else wants to, that would be nice....

 

I don't think the death scene was just a fluff scene, it was probably meant to reflect faction, too.  If it was totally random what place in the story she had in the death scene, well, I still know she was a Captain, so it doesn't matter.

 

**Edit Red's Post**

I haven't read that yet, I will after I post this. :D

[Alys Kinch]

thanks red, on the captain thing.

 

i think i agree on the info vs scum, yet scumhunt = fact finding. balance?

 

meesh, what? that didn't make sense to me. you still know even if the scene didn't say?

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

Basically my internet has been crazy and I didn't read about her viewing. I still don't believe it 100% or even 85% to tell the truth. I think it is a little to convenient and the way Lily coupled her viewing with fishing for reactions seems off.

 

But I don't think everyone has a viewing, I think that is a guess that may or may not be true, but it has opened the door for an epic mafia win. That way if Player x is mafia they can say the viewed player y and clear them as innocent or get a dangerous player lynched. The can also keep reusing the role claim. I don't see Wes giving everyone a viewing because it would end the game rather quickly. Innocents can nominate someone for a viewing during day and run through people and then make for a rather quick defeat of the scum.

 

So I am not on board with the everyone gets a viewing thing.

 

Um, except that Wes already told us straight up that everyone gets 1 viewing, 1 doc protect and 1 vig kill.

 

I must of missed it. Care to quote it for me or give me a reply #?

[Alys Kinch]

it is in the rules and regs post with player list. he even mentioned it in the sign up thread and verified several times on this thread.

[Hybrid]

Argh!  BONESTONE!!!

[Hybrid]

My main point, though, is why is Bonda automatically bad.  We have mod hints that there are mafia in all groups.

I'm guessing it's not automatically bad -- but there's only one way to find out, and (speaking for myself here) it might as well be Adella, since I was suspicious of her Day 1.

[Barmacral]

Basically my internet has been crazy and I didn't read about her viewing. I still don't believe it 100% or even 85% to tell the truth. I think it is a little to convenient and the way Lily coupled her viewing with fishing for reactions seems off.

 

But I don't think everyone has a viewing, I think that is a guess that may or may not be true, but it has opened the door for an epic mafia win. That way if Player x is mafia they can say the viewed player y and clear them as innocent or get a dangerous player lynched. The can also keep reusing the role claim. I don't see Wes giving everyone a viewing because it would end the game rather quickly. Innocents can nominate someone for a viewing during day and run through people and then make for a rather quick defeat of the scum.

 

So I am not on board with the everyone gets a viewing thing.

 

Um, except that Wes already told us straight up that everyone gets 1 viewing, 1 doc protect and 1 vig kill.

 

I must of missed it. Care to quote it for me or give me a reply #?

 

What Alys said.

[mmeeshal]

@Alys--I don't believe that you actually cannot see what I'm implying.  FIRST of all, I did say that I am pretty sure the death scene had her as a Captain.  SECONDLY, regardless of what the death scene said, yes, I personally do know that Bela was a Captain.

 

It's that simple.

[Alys Kinch]

in a game of wifom, half claims mean questions. ;) did you view her or did someone on your team? *shameless*

[Red2111]

caught up to page 20.

 

Lily, why didn't you reveal this when day first started? You certainly posted then.

 

Imo, to give more credit to her find.  She was under pressure when we first started, by revealing due to her actions from Day 1.  had she revealed, some or most might have saw this as her trying to divert attention from herself onto a person people will likely vote for.  Kinda like a scum claiming Miller when the finder outs them to avoid a lynch.  By revealing this info while not under pressure, it leads more weight and truth to her finding claim and people are more likely to believe her.

 

Which further lends support to the theory that there are probably mafia among each faction.

 

Clearly, if we are putting stock in Raisa's dream, not all Captains are good.  But not all Captains are bad, either, so let's not go on a killing spree of Captains if one turns out to be mafia.

 

True, with Mafia = Manipulators.  imo Wes clearly stated this in a previous post.  The bit about each of them(manipulators) going back to their factions to further their goal or something like that.    I’ll quote it if you need me too :)

 

And with Raisa’s dream, the part I focused on was “it was her captain, the one who had given her the information”

 

Earlier when the Minister confronted Raisa he told her that the guy’s throat she slit wasn’t a spy and wanted to know who told her.  

 

This info combined implicates Raisa’s Captain as a manipulator as well as showing him as the person who set her up.  Furthering showing that the manipulators are pulling strings on both sides.

 

All I mean is that I don't know for sure how we can label Bova Perrada as mafia, and Beva Perrada as town.  Especially because of those manipulator people.  The Bova Perrada and his followers could be Town, trying to salvage their history and get back to what they feel they should be.  They could also be mafia just trying to usurp authority and take over.  The Beva Perrada could be Town, trying to stand up for order and continuity, or he could be mafia, maybe put in place by the unknown manipulators, maybe working under the direction of the current Minister, who has the goal of turning things to his own purposes.

 

Basically, I just don't see how we can say either group is right or wrong.  They have their own motivations, certainly the Bova Perrada and his followers don't seem to have sinister motives; he might, but that doesn't mean his followers know about that, just as perhaps those who support the Beva Perrada, as well as the current Minister, might be following a bad guy but may not realize it.

 

I don't think we can just point at someone's actions and say "You're evil." At least not in the story.  We don't have enough to go on, right now.  We don't know what's behind everyone's actions, what their motivations are, so that's why I think we can't assign a town or mafia alignment to either the Beva Perrada and his supporters, or to the Bova Perrada and his supporters.

 

Actually I agree with what your saying, I’ve already stated my views on the alignment findings so I wont go back into it.  Because of the mafia a finding saying Bova or Beva isn’t enough to determine scum or innocent.  Because there are true followers and manipulators mixed in all 3 factions its logical to think there will be some Bova that will be town aligned and some Beva that will be Mafia alligned

 

It will be interesting to see if the Corner’s report on a Bova lists them as Mafia or Town.  With Bela we had her political alignment declared in story, and her game alignment revealed at the end with the player’s name.

 

 

Now, granted, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe, as Bonda Perrada indicates supporters of the Bova Perrada, so Captain indicates supporters of the Beva Perrada.  In that case, if the third faction is undecided or something, then I would agree that the Bova is mafia and the Beva is town.

 

HOWEVER, again, the supporters of each can't be privy to their leader's deepest thoughts, and could be following a bad guy without realizing it.

 

Sorry for the long post.  I really just think it's hasty to jump to conclusions about which group is mafia.

 

Agree’d.  the Candidates are the win condition in the game, so whether an entire faction is scum is a mute point until we can determine which Candidate is scum; unless of course its revealed in the corners report that specific person is Mafia.

 

We have to remember the manipulators are the ones pulling the strings in this game, not Beva & Bova; so we can’t get side tracked by a finding report unless it clearly states Town or Mafia with it.  Its good information, but not something we should only base our lynch decision off of

 

If we lynch Adella, who is, I'm assuming, Bonda Perrada, and she is mafia, then if we find another Bonda Perrada I say we lynch him/her, too.  That should help us determine whether or not faction is indicative of town/mafia alignment.

 

For now, I just want to point out that Bela was a Captain, and she was town.

 

This is a good idea in theory but the only flaw is that there are 10 manipulators divided into the 3 factions.  We may get lucky and catch the Bonda manipulators early but I don’t think that gives proof that every single Bonda supporter is a manipulator.  

 

In the game rules:  "One candidate will be Town. The other candidate will be mafia."   So one of the Bova Perrada or the Beva Perrada is town and the other is mafia.  I suppose I could have it backwards and that the Beva is mafia and the Bova is town, but I understood that Raisa supports the minister and since the story is central to her it makes sense that she and the minister's candidate would be town.  We won't really know unless someone's willing to claim which it is either via a viewing result or via their role PM.

 

I’m still more inclined to think that the Minister candidate & Challenger are NPC’s seeing as they are the win conditions set for this game.  It would be too easy to win the game if they were actual players; either by the mafia NKing the candidate that’s town or by a finder (like a regular finder, as Wes has mentioned more roles might be released or already in the game)

 

I think it would be too easy for Bova to mean mafia and Beva to mean Town. I have explained how that works way back. Also Wes says that you get Faction or Alignment. Maybe there is a toss of the coin and you can get either!  After all we are all Captains as we will be voting on who will take over as minister!

 

Agreed, and that’s an interesting idea.  

Faction = bova, beva or captian

Alignment = town or mafia

 

I hadn’t been thinking about it that way.  It would eaxplain why Al got a Town while JLM got a Captian.

 

Something else. If all the mafia knew each other (10) why not use all your night kills on night one, and then you can control the game a lot more easier with fewer town out there. It maybe they don't actually know each other, maybe they just know a couple and are in groups. Considering the result we get on viewing and that we all have 1 night kill, suggests 10 people knowing each other could easily be seen as tipping it in the mafia's favour.

 

Information though is what we need right now, and this may sound callous, but if we vote for someone that we have an idea of their faction/alignment it may help us understand our viewing results more and give us information.

 

I'm not saying Lily is totally to be believed. But a lynch on Adella could give us a lot of info.

 

I’ve explained my views on the scum using all their VK’s at once and disagree with you on this.  Imo it would be like playing your hand early in a poker game; not to mention lacks strategy.  But I’m also erring on the side of caution and assuming, given the players in this game, we have a smart and devious scum team to deal with.

 

I’m starting to agree with the lynching Adella, it does make sense that her lynch would give us good info; but i’d like to hear from her before we just lynch her, give her a chance to defend herself.  I know how it feels to get on before a deadline and find yourself lynched over night without a chance to defend yourself … it sucks!

 

Right now she has majority votes and this is a majority by deadline game, not hammer vote.

 

The mafia will have to figure out who is town, and who is neutral. They'll have to thin out the town if they can, and recruit the neutral players. I think we're looking at a completely even playing field here. The scum don't have anything that we don't have, and both sides are even in numbers. Both sides are looking, I think, for the neutral captains to sway to their side.

 

I see what your saying.  But I disagree.  I think there will only be one faction working to sway votes on a candidate; the manipulators, imo manipulators = mafia while all others = town.  If the numbers in the post Wes gave us are correct, then were looking at a scum team of 10; and again going on the info provided you would be correct about the group/solo thing you mentioned earlier (of which I actually agree with)

 

[mmeeshal]

in a game of wifom, half claims mean questions. ;) did you view her or did someone on your team? *shameless*

Ha.  Someone who's had as much experience with mafia games as you have, surely has considered more possibilities than this, yet you act like those are the only options possible.

 

I don't trust you.  Also, I'll blatantly say that I think you're scum, fishing for information.

 

Since more people finally seem to be agreeing that alignment and faction aren't actually necessarily connected, I agree that Adella doesn't have to be the one lynched.  I think we'd still get her alignment, and it would give us some information, but not a whole extra amount, nothing totally special that we can't get from lynching someone else, for example.  Of course, the few of you who STILL think that Faction A=Scum Alignment and Faction B=Town, there won't be any convincing you until we lynch one of each faction and prove that there are townies in each one.

 

Anyway, so I feel fine [glow=red,2,300]unvoting[/glow] and voting [glow=red,2,300]Alys[/glow] again, because there is no one else pinging my radar more than she is right now.

[aemonkristen]

If knowing the faction of a person does not bring us closer to finding scum, of what use is our one time finder ability? That just doesn't make sense to me. It's like have the ability to know the color of someones eyes. It might be cool to know, but useless in the long run.

[LilyElizabeth]

I have to agree with Aemon on this. DPR is not known for giving useless abilities, as far as I know. If we have it, it will be useful.

 

I also agree, Meesh, that something is off with Alys, but I'm going for Adella first.

 

[Amadine]

Wow! 9 pages in just 15 hours!

 

Okay the feeling i am getting is that the Challenger declared himself Bova Perrada and his supporters are Bonda Perrada, he is attempting to overthrow the Minister. It sounds to me like Bonda Perrada = scum, but that's just my personal take on it.

 

Having had Adella viewed as Bonda Perrada by both Lily and Pandy i am will to go with her to get the alignment from the coroner. [glow=red,2,300]Adella[/glow]