cadsuane 's impact

[lordofsoup]

She is going to be so mad when Moraine shows back up. 

[Fains nose]

I just badly want to see her deceased

[Shard]

She is going to be so mad when Moraine shows back up. 

 

Wow I can't believe I never thought of that, I want to see what will happen when Moraine and Cadsuane meet!

[Duskfire]

I really don't think anything will happen. The only problem that may eventuate is that Moiraine thought Cadsuane was Black Ajah, but that was 20+ years previous so that may have been resolved since then. But they can both exist and both help out Rand at the same time; when they will meet TG will probably be about to start, and both have always wanted what was best for the world. I have faith that Cadsuane and Moiraine will be able to at least be civil while the fate of the world rests in the balance, unlike some Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane showing extreme respect for the Wise Ones suggest to me that Cadsuane will be fine with Moraine.

[Durinax]

I really don't think anything will happen. The only problem that may eventuate is that Moiraine thought Cadsuane was Black Ajah, but that was 20+ years previous so that may have been resolved since then. But they can both exist and both help out Rand at the same time; when they will meet TG will probably be about to start, and both have always wanted what was best for the world. I have faith that Cadsuane and Moiraine will be able to at least be civil while the fate of the world rests in the balance, unlike some Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane showing extreme respect for the Wise Ones suggest to me that Cadsuane will be fine with Moraine.

but we have seen cadsuane thinking that all the people before her screwed things up pretty badly, and I believe she thought moraine gave him too much slack. so there will be sparks, I do hope however that the restraining order rand has on cadsuane still stands, and that moraine will slap the hell out of cadsuane

[clu7ch]

one of the great regrets of her life was 'not figuring out what caroline damodred's cousin was up to in the borderlands until it was too late' so it could be interesting to see some griefing.

 

I used to hate caddy, like a lot. But more and more I think she is alright in my mind, but I dont know what brought about this change of heart, she's just such a strong figure. Although she was handling the Rand situation wrong, she kind of follows suit with how Aes Sedai act about him, All their lives they were taught the dangers of male channelers, it could have been worse, she could have been elaida's grandma lol.

[lordofsoup]

I think that Moraine will immediately get Rand to call her to him.  Then she will shield caddy.  At this point she will interogate her about what happened twenty years ago, and she will tell her story to the Rand.  And she and Rand will make her give upo her secrets.

[Luckers]

I think that Moraine will immediately get Rand to call her to him.  Then she will shield caddy.  At this point she will interogate her about what happened twenty years ago, and she will tell her story to the Rand.  And she and Rand will make her give upo her secrets.

 

That would be very unwise. Caddy's ter'angreal would wipe the floor with Moiraine. Possibly if Moiraine caught her by surprise and fought to kill from the beginning she could take her, but even then it would only be possibly.

 

I am looking forward to a meeting between Cadsuane and Moiraine, but not for the reason you all seem to be. Both women have misconceptions about the other. I'm hoping for a much more subtle confrontation between the two. One of my favourite things about Moiraine was her ability to hold her own against others without confronting them. Her POV in tGH where she walks out trying to look chastened and thinks she just looks angry, or the one where she is with the Aiel Wise Ones "Jenn Aiel. The True Dedicated. Only stronger than that, the only true dedicated. I've often wondered what the Aiel are dedicated too." The Wise One's eyes were flat on her.

 

In my opinion if they try to one up each other, he'll only cheapen them and the scene. Both are capable women, each in their own manner, and what I would love to see is Cadsuane expecting a normal, meddling, idiot Aes Sedai, and Moiraine holding her own resulting in Cadsuane coming to respect her, and even be wary of her (much like how she was with Verin).

[Duskfire]

I really don't think anything will happen. The only problem that may eventuate is that Moiraine thought Cadsuane was Black Ajah, but that was 20+ years previous so that may have been resolved since then. But they can both exist and both help out Rand at the same time; when they will meet TG will probably be about to start, and both have always wanted what was best for the world. I have faith that Cadsuane and Moiraine will be able to at least be civil while the fate of the world rests in the balance, unlike some Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane showing extreme respect for the Wise Ones suggest to me that Cadsuane will be fine with Moraine.

but we have seen cadsuane thinking that all the people before her screwed things up pretty badly, and I believe she thought moraine gave him too much slack. so there will be sparks, I do hope however that the restraining order rand has on cadsuane still stands, and that moraine will slap the hell out of cadsuane

 

It won't. Rand will come back and realise Cadsuane has actually done a decent job. For people like her - advisors of the Dragon Reborn - it was always going to be a lose/lose situation. The thing to do is try your best on limiting how badly that lose is. As I pointed out elsewhere, Rand without Cadsuane would have been much much worst off then he is now. To me, that shows she did a pretty decent job. Better then many people would have been able to.

 

 

[Durinax]

I really don't think anything will happen. The only problem that may eventuate is that Moiraine thought Cadsuane was Black Ajah, but that was 20+ years previous so that may have been resolved since then. But they can both exist and both help out Rand at the same time; when they will meet TG will probably be about to start, and both have always wanted what was best for the world. I have faith that Cadsuane and Moiraine will be able to at least be civil while the fate of the world rests in the balance, unlike some Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane showing extreme respect for the Wise Ones suggest to me that Cadsuane will be fine with Moraine.

but we have seen cadsuane thinking that all the people before her screwed things up pretty badly, and I believe she thought moraine gave him too much slack. so there will be sparks, I do hope however that the restraining order rand has on cadsuane still stands, and that moraine will slap the hell out of cadsuane

 

It won't. Rand will come back and realise Cadsuane has actually done a decent job. For people like her - advisors of the Dragon Reborn - it was always going to be a lose/lose situation. The thing to do is try your best on limiting how badly that lose is. As I pointed out elsewhere, Rand without Cadsuane would have been much much worst off then he is now. To me, that shows she did a pretty decent job. Better then many people would have been able to.

to me she was a failure I think rand wouldnt have been so hard if caddy wouldnt have been pushing him closer and closer to the edge.

[Duskfire]

I really don't think anything will happen. The only problem that may eventuate is that Moiraine thought Cadsuane was Black Ajah, but that was 20+ years previous so that may have been resolved since then. But they can both exist and both help out Rand at the same time; when they will meet TG will probably be about to start, and both have always wanted what was best for the world. I have faith that Cadsuane and Moiraine will be able to at least be civil while the fate of the world rests in the balance, unlike some Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane showing extreme respect for the Wise Ones suggest to me that Cadsuane will be fine with Moraine.

but we have seen cadsuane thinking that all the people before her screwed things up pretty badly, and I believe she thought moraine gave him too much slack. so there will be sparks, I do hope however that the restraining order rand has on cadsuane still stands, and that moraine will slap the hell out of cadsuane

 

It won't. Rand will come back and realise Cadsuane has actually done a decent job. For people like her - advisors of the Dragon Reborn - it was always going to be a lose/lose situation. The thing to do is try your best on limiting how badly that lose is. As I pointed out elsewhere, Rand without Cadsuane would have been much much worst off then he is now. To me, that shows she did a pretty decent job. Better then many people would have been able to.

to me she was a failure I think rand wouldnt have been so hard if caddy wouldnt have been pushing him closer and closer to the edge.

 

You dont think that maybe the expectations of the world as well as his capture and beating at the hands of the Aes Sedai may have contributed more then Cadsuane? That Cadsuane may simply be a scapegoat who was the only one Rand would have been able to lash out at?

 

I am curious as to what you think Cadsuane did that was so wrong. She may have been hard and honest with him, but keep in mind thats exactly what Moiraine said Rand needed...

 

"Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to."

 

As far as I can tell, Cadsuane has done exactly that. The thing is, Rand is the one who is much to blame as anyone. Everyone acts like he is innocent in the entire mess of TGS, but his developing character was just as much at fault as any Aes Sedai or noble or whatever. Thats not a bad thing; its realistic and makes his comeback all that much better. 

 

Not to mention, for someone who failed in regards to advising Rand, she seems up have the upmost respect of the Wise Ones, maybe even more so then Moiraine. Not to mention the Sea Folk, Asha`man (the ones with Rand anyway) etc etc.

[Durinax]

well it isnt hard to respect a person who is utterly dignified and uncompromising

[Duskfire]

well it isnt hard to respect a person who is utterly dignified and uncompromising

 

But she is compromising. She settled things with the Wise Ones when so many Aes Sedai would have just fought with them, she has come to accept the Asha`man and Sea Folk, etc etc.

 

You still haven't really answered as to why you consider her such a failure.

[Luckers]

I agree with Duskfire--and it's something so many miss. Cadsuane has subtleties--yes she can be rude, and even a bully--but only when it serves the greater purpose. And moreover, only when it specifically serves the greater purpose, which is a destinction which sets her apart from other Aes Sedai.

 

For instance you don't see her being rude or trying to bully the Wise Ones. Because there is no need. They are wise enough to see what needs to be done on their own--and even when that isn't what Cadsuane would do, she respects that they have their own wisdom.

 

She has, at all points, only treated people as their actions--and not their titles--deserve.

 

Incidentally Brandon spoke on Cadsuane recently on twitter.

 

By the way, Freelancer, I'm sorry I totally flubbed your Cadsuane question. My mind was in another place.

 

I THINK he was asking "Do you think Robert Jordan thought of Cadsuane like you do." I answered "did you write Cads like RJ did?"

 

I had a strange moment trying to answer, as my feelings on Cadsuane are...complicaded. Many know she annoyed me when I was just a reader.

 

Now I'm rather fond of her. Like I'm fond of a crazy relative. On further speculation, my instinct is that was how RJ felt too.

 

 

 

[Durinax]

well it isnt hard to respect a person who is utterly dignified and uncompromising

 

But she is compromising. She settled things with the Wise Ones when so many Aes Sedai would have just fought with them, she has come to accept the Asha`man and Sea Folk, etc etc.

 

You still haven't really answered as to why you consider her such a failure.

she didnt have to compromise with teh WO's, and the sea folk and Asha'man she didnt compromise with them at all, the Asha'man she deals with are somewhat cowed by their AS, and the sea folk she has limited contact with, adn the ones she does have contact with she bullied and disrespected until they surrendered to her will. And as for the WO's again she did not compromise she created a truce in which they shared some information back and forth but she has not compromised, plus she does not respect all AS she respects sorilea and sorilea back, and most of the WO's follow sorileas lead.

 

personnally I believe she completely fluked out with rand not going over the edge she kept pushing him towards. I think she cuold have done things differently and turned him away from the edge instead of pushing him towards it.

[Duskfire]

well it isnt hard to respect a person who is utterly dignified and uncompromising

 

But she is compromising. She settled things with the Wise Ones when so many Aes Sedai would have just fought with them, she has come to accept the Asha`man and Sea Folk, etc etc.

 

You still haven't really answered as to why you consider her such a failure.

she didnt have to compromise with teh WO's, and the sea folk and Asha'man she didnt compromise with them at all, the Asha'man she deals with are somewhat cowed by their AS, and the sea folk she has limited contact with, adn the ones she does have contact with she bullied and disrespected until they surrendered to her will. And as for the WO's again she did not compromise she created a truce in which they shared some information back and forth but she has not compromised, plus she does not respect all AS she respects sorilea and sorilea back, and most of the WO's follow sorileas lead.

 

personnally I believe she completely fluked out with rand not going over the edge she kept pushing him towards. I think she cuold have done things differently and turned him away from the edge instead of pushing him towards it.

 

They more then made a truce, Sorilea and her are as close as friends as someone like Cadsuane can get. Besides which, making a truce with someone who is your equal is basically the dictionary definition of compromise. And you do know Aes Sedai bonding Asha`man was her idea right? She did that so that Narishma and whatnot could not only show their loyalty to Rand but to stop Taim from coming after them. As for the Sea Folk, she may have bullied them, but the only reason Rand has bothered keeping his agreement with them is because of her.

 

Anyhow, how do you think she could have done things differently? Keep in mind that if she gave him too much freedom he would have died at the Cleansing and alienated half of his allies by now.

 

[Durinax]

Anyhow, how do you think she could have done things differently? Keep in mind that if she gave him too much freedom he would have died at the Cleansing and alienated half of his allies by now

well for one I think she could treat him with more respect, and how would giving rand freedom have made him die at the cleansing? and he did alienate half his allies because of how it all went down, he alienated the aiel darlin and cairhein guy by just commanding them and expecting those thigns to be done (kind of reminded me of caddy actually).

 

I think she could of actually been an advisor, now I think that her keeping her opinions to herself until he asked her opinion was good at the start, but once he did ask she should have kept giving her opinions and have stopped the childish name calling every time he did something against her wishes, have allowed him to vent his anger more by yelling and such instead of 'disciplining' him with a switch of power or some such, and idk how bout treat him as a person. She only saw his negative actions, did we ever see her say congradulations to him for cleansing the source, or help him with the leaders to give him a bit of respite. Instead she seemed to be working to build up the pressure inside of rand just to see whether the top would blow

[Duskfire]

ell for one I think she could treat him with more respect, and how would giving rand freedom have made him die at the cleansing?

 

Rand originally wanted basically just him and Nynaeve. It was Cadsuane who half-forced him to allow herself and others to come along, and she was the one who set up the little groups to meet the Forsaken travelling in. If she had given him the distance and freedom so many want, then Rand would have died there and then at the Cleansing. Even if he was able to get out of Far Madding, something else Cadsuane also helped him with. Basically, WH is just Cadsuane saving Rand over and over again.

 

What alot of people dont seem to realise (due to Rand being a main character and all) is that he is extremely difficult to work with, is very unpredictacle and fickle, prone to outbursts and suspicion, etc etc. I am not saying it isnt warranted, however it does mean that his advisor needed to be firm and relentless, else he'll just slip through the cracks. Which is exactly what he tries to do, on a number of occasions. Moiraine said much the same thing. So Cadsuane does come across as hard and a bully, but its what she needed to be in order to keep Rand in his place.

 

She only saw his negative actions, did we ever see her say congradulations to him for cleansing the source, or help him with the leaders to give him a bit of respite. Instead she seemed to be working to build up the pressure inside of rand just to see whether the top would blow

 

I'm sorry, that entire line is phrase is wrong. She helped him with the leaders numerous times; not directly, but it was her who taught rand the value of backing up your word and being courteous to others. And I have referenced many times throughout this thread that she was the one who convinced Rand to keep his agreement with the Sea Folk. Cadsuane always thought about how the world needed to be on good teams even after Rand won, and thus thats why it was important to be respectful to all allies, while to Rand (especially in TGS) he cared only about reaching TG and defeating the DO and not caring about the state afterwards.

 

And does anyone congratulate Rand? Heck, Logain doesn't even believe Rand did the Cleansing! Rand isn't some 12 year old who needs to be reminded how good he is. He is either going to save or doom the world, and so, even to me, congratulations seem a bit... shallow.

[csarmi]

Some of the readers are childish, however. For some it's just Rand, can't see another PoV. I always have the feeling that WoT is wasted on them.

[Durinax]

Some of the readers are childish, however. For some it's just Rand, can't see another PoV. I always have the feeling that WoT is wasted on them.

I sincerely hope you are not refering this comment to me

[Duskfire]

Some of the readers are childish, however. For some it's just Rand, can't see another PoV. I always have the feeling that WoT is wasted on them.

 

Bit harsh. Durinax is entitled to his opinion and even though him and I share completely differing views, I still see his argument somewhat. I too didnt like Cadsuane initially, but she has grown on me over the years as I have started to realise how complicated a character she is.

 

Anyhow, Durinax, its obviously we're just stubborn buggers and neither one of us is going to change your view :P

[decrepid dragon]

It feels like Cadsuanes help, while intentional, was more incidental than anything. She went about it wrong but it happened to turn right in the last minute. Still, kudos for her for even thinking of trying to make Rand a happy person when she didn't know him from childhood, and when she had taken down false dragons and is practically a force of nature to boot.

 

And as to the previous quote congrats seeming shallow... well, they are certainly better than distrust, betrayal and insults (not just from Caddy, everybody in general) Rand is only a human after all, how would you feel if you went and dedicated your life to helping others and saving the world and they didn't even say thanks, just tried to take away your ability to help them and told you to stop interfering and get lost. Not all the time obvisously, but somebody congratulating Rand Maybe once every book would be nice ;)

[csarmi]

I sincerely hope you are not refering this comment to me

 

I'm not. If I did, I would have mentioned you. If I want to tell you something, I PM you. It's rude talking about someone in 3rd person while he's there, anyway.

 

If it was about you, it'd go like:

 

***QUOTE***

 

Durinax, you are being childish. I think for you it's just Rand, you can't see another PoV. I have the feeling that WoT is wasted on you.

 

**UNQUOTE**

 

It isn't, however.