Egwene's Strategic Options

[Luckers]

On thought that occured to me is--why doesn't Egwene pull Elaida and the other Aes Sedai that were captured into the Dream and sever them from the True Source? Egwene must have met most sisters in the Tower by this stage--there were only two hundred. Evene if she could only find the dreams of half that stands the possibility of getting all who know travelling.

 

Besides, severed from the True Source the Aes Sedai would not be holdable by the a'dam. Sure the Seanchan might hold them for crimes. I'm not sure. It'd still be better than being leashed, even if it was execution. And ultimately they could be healed.

 

Of course its possible the a'dam protects your dreams, like Mat's medallion.

[Fains nose]

@Luckers thats genius, though it sounds more like something the forsaken would do, evil.

[Shard]

Egwene wanted to put Eladia to trail and I agree doing a dream severing would be evil.

[Luckers]

@Luckers thats genius, though it sounds more like something the forsaken would do, evil.

 

But it wouldn't be evil. The Tower doesn't have the resources to save those women. Severing them frees them from the a'dam, and thus the torture. Even if the Seanchan then chose to execute the--which I doubt--it still saves them horrible agony and depredation.

 

Egwene wanted to put Eladia to trail and I agree doing a dream severing would be evil.

 

[farthammer]

Well that's basically the same thing as Reds running around performing spot gentling and it doesn't solve the problem of this type of enslavement either.

 

Also it's a pretty desperate move, something you can only do once.  At least so far Tuon regrets marath`damane casualties even if it is only because she sees it as waste of potential property.  If every AS they capture winds up being stilled they will just go for all out annihilation.

 

Is it ever said anywhere what the sul`dam to damane ratio is like?  At what point does acquiring ever more damane just overwhelm their ability to use them?  Food supplies look pretty dismal all over the place and although Seanchan stupidity has been beaten to death, it just starts to become impossible for practical reasons.

 

In earlier books I thought perhaps Tuon might've had a pretty good grasp of the big picture but after TGS a lot of her confidence is really just ignorance and stupidity.  I guess she's a somber character, looks super focused on having regal bearing, but she is just a very dumb girl in the end.  It's not going to happen but I hope Shaidar Haran hijacks a raken to drop thakandar turds on her head wherever she tries to go.

[Durinax]

 

Is it ever said anywhere what the sul`dam to damane ratio is like?  At what point does acquiring ever more damane just overwhelm their ability to use them?  Food supplies look pretty dismal all over the place and although Seanchan stupidity has been beaten to death, it just starts to become impossible for practical reasons.

 

its stated that there is alot more suldam than damane, especially since there are a lot more people who can potentially learn (suldam) than sparkers (damane)

[Luckers]

Well that's basically the same thing as Reds running around performing spot gentling

 

I'm not suggesting this is something Egwene should do without the sanction of the Hall, but it is different from the Reds Hunt and Destroy Mission.

 

The reason what the Reds did was so heinous is it abandoned those men in the aftermath, both to themselves and to the tender mercies of the ifnorent masses. Even so there are divisions of necessity--whilst the Reds could bring those men in, and see them taken care of, they had a responsibility to do so. If for instance something had stopped Reds being able to bring men back to the Tower to gentled, then doing this wouldn't have been a criminal activity--its horrible those men are left to their situation, yet the Reds could not leave them to go mad and spread havoc. In the event of that had the Reds gone before the Hall with something like this I've no doubt it would have been approved.

 

This is somewhat similar--if left the Aes Sedai will lose their minds as surely as the male channelers, and once they're gone they represent a very great danger to the world around them. Yes it would be better for them to be freed, but the Aes Sedai do not have the resources to do so.

 

Keep in mind, as well, that this isn't being done maliciously. It would be done to free the damane of the torture she would other wise suffer, and with the hope that later the woman could be healed and restored. Yes it would bear the risks of the Seanchan imprisoning them or executing them (though I doubt either is likely. The Seanchan aren't malicious--in fact they are strictly honourable--just misguided).

 

But even if it did result in an execution--as Egwene states, better off dead than damane.

 

and it doesn't solve the problem of this type of enslavement either.

 

Yes it does. A still person cannot be held by the a'dam as per RJ.

 

Also it's a pretty desperate move, something you can only do once.  At least so far Tuon regrets marath`damane casualties even if it is only because she sees it as waste of potential property.  If every AS they capture winds up being stilled they will just go for all out annihilation.

 

And they aren't going to do that anyway? At least this way they wouldn't have compulsion. I don't reguard that as desperate at all. Strategic and effective.

 

Is it ever said anywhere what the sul`dam to damane ratio is like?  At what point does acquiring ever more damane just overwhelm their ability to use them?  Food supplies look pretty dismal all over the place and although Seanchan stupidity has been beaten to death, it just starts to become impossible for practical reasons.

 

Sparkers represent only a tiny portion of people with the ability to channel, so the answer is that the ratio is dramatic. Seanchan has far more sul'dam then damane. Even leashing every currently active woman in the Westlands will not tax that.

 

 

 

In many ways it does. A stilled person cannot be held by the a'dam.

[supermanblue2001]

While all of the Seanchan talk is exciting, this thread is getting too focused on them. We need to look at all of Egwene's options.

 

There are literally dozens of directions that Egwene can go and she's not one to sit on her laurels. Egwene has become a woman of action but she isn't foolhardy enough to charge blindly into a possible Seanchan trap. How is she to know that this raid wasn't designed simply to bait the Aes Sedai out of Tar Valon?

 

Her main concern now will be to properly secure Tar Valon and prepare both her enlarged army and sisterhood (including Kin) for what Tarmon Gaidon might bring. This means solidifying all her allies behind/beside her. Remember that almost a full 1/3rd of Aes Sedai have been playing sit and twiddle your thumbs until this whole Egwene v. Elaida debacle was over. Bringing them into the fold will allow her to further weed the Aes Sedai ranks of the Black Ajah and enable her to extend her power beyond the borders of the Shining Walls.

 

One strong move would be to return Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar to Illian. This would have to be done in conjunction with Rand so as to facilitate as smooth transition. Remember that Mattin was generally considered a good king until 'Lord Brend'(Sammael) began controlling him. Many people are terrified of the Dragon Reborn and mistakenly think he will help rather than fight The Dark One. The people would unite more willingly with him as their king. For example look to Tear. The High Lords and Ladies are much happier (for lack of a better term) bending knee to Darlin than they are Rand.

 

She should also throw her support behind Elayne as Queen of Cairhein. With both the Amrylin and Lord Dragon's support the houses will align and finally bring the not so hidden hostilities to an end. This will also be helped by the support of Lady Caraline Damodred of the last major claimants to the throne that still live. She's going to be Queen of Tear anyway and has already spoken well of Elayne. I know there will be arguments that Andor herself hasn't fully been readied for TG but Elayne now controls all of Andor with the exception of that tiny little Black Tower.

 

Another smart move would be to find and maintain a watch/embassy on King Roedran of Murandy. The activities of that nation have been a mystery for quite sometime. I'm personally convinced this is where you'll find Demandred's trail begin. That golden pipe that Mat was given has a 'Finder' woven on it, mark my words. This would have to be done delicately with Seanchan controlled Altara so close but Egwene can be delicate. We just haven't seen her act thus recently.

 

She should also marshall Far Madding. They should fall into line fairly quick confronted with a united White Tower. There is also the small item that Cadsuane channeled inside the guardians Saidar free zone.

 

She also has to deal with the Sea Folk Windfinders. There is something about the 'Bargain' that hasn't yet come to light. A way for her to maintain the dignity of the Aes Sedai while still fulfilling the terms. I'm looking forward to this missed loophole because Zaida din Parede Blackwing is going to be spluttering about it.

 

I see Egwene's role in this book as being largely political. The Amrylin Seat has been the epitome of power, security, and stability for nigh on 3000 years. Her personal battle skills notwithstanding it's much more important for a General to direct a battle than to fight one themselves.

 

I don't know how she would deal with the Borderlanders. I believe that has to be something Rand will complete. Since the four monarchs are all in Far Madding she might be able to establish contact with Rand or at least someone with access to him there.

[farthammer]

Well it's the finality of it.  The AS unfortunately have basically avoided thinking about the Seanchan problem at all, and now finally they can try and figure out how to defeat the leash.  Jumping straight to post abduction stilling is writing off any other option for any woman taken.  At that point they may as well go hide in a stedding.

 

Also that surprises me if they actually maintain a huge excess of sul`dam, to the point it makes me wonder if it is the sul`dam pulling the strings of the empire from behind the scenes.

 

in many ways it does. A stilled person cannot be held by the a'dam.

 

Well they'd just become a different type of slave at that point, if not killed outright before they die, or tortured for information.

[Treehugger]

And how was she to know the route the raken were taking? They could have gone south-west, down to Ebou Dar. Or gone West first to get straight into Seanchan controlled lands then South following the coast. Given 24 hours that is a huge radius of places to search.

Surely there must be warders of the captured sisters that could point the way?

 

That's assuming that the warders of the captured sisters survived the attack.

 

It strikes me that for the warders having your AS being leashed would be in the Over My Dead Body category.

 

Literally.

 

Also the Seanchan have had experience in leashing AS and know that the warders would be serious opposition and would be targeting them for that reason.

[Crossroad]

Until Rand comes to see her she will be focus on putting the WT on a better War Footing, planning an assault on the Seanshan to retrieve the AS that were taken(which I think will change when Rand comes to see her)  Her main objective's will be to prepare the AS for the coming battle.  I think she will select a special group to work with the a group of Ashaman to protect Rand while he breaks the old seals and then creates new and better seals to keep the DO trapped in his prison.

[TheAngryDruid]

While all of the Seanchan talk is exciting, this thread is getting too focused on them. We need to look at all of Egwene's options.

 

There are literally dozens of directions that Egwene can go and she's not one to sit on her laurels. Egwene has become a woman of action but she isn't foolhardy enough to charge blindly into a possible Seanchan trap. How is she to know that this raid wasn't designed simply to bait the Aes Sedai out of Tar Valon?

 

Her main concern now will be to properly secure Tar Valon and prepare both her enlarged army and sisterhood (including Kin) for what Tarmon Gaidon might bring. This means solidifying all her allies behind/beside her. Remember that almost a full 1/3rd of Aes Sedai have been playing sit and twiddle your thumbs until this whole Egwene v. Elaida debacle was over. Bringing them into the fold will allow her to further weed the Aes Sedai ranks of the Black Ajah and enable her to extend her power beyond the borders of the Shining Walls.

 

One strong move would be to return Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar to Illian. This would have to be done in conjunction with Rand so as to facilitate as smooth transition. Remember that Mattin was generally considered a good king until 'Lord Brend'(Sammael) began controlling him. Many people are terrified of the Dragon Reborn and mistakenly think he will help rather than fight The Dark One. The people would unite more willingly with him as their king. For example look to Tear. The High Lords and Ladies are much happier (for lack of a better term) bending knee to Darlin than they are Rand.

 

She should also throw her support behind Elayne as Queen of Cairhein. With both the Amrylin and Lord Dragon's support the houses will align and finally bring the not so hidden hostilities to an end. This will also be helped by the support of Lady Caraline Damodred of the last major claimants to the throne that still live. She's going to be Queen of Tear anyway and has already spoken well of Elayne. I know there will be arguments that Andor herself hasn't fully been readied for TG but Elayne now controls all of Andor with the exception of that tiny little Black Tower.

 

Another smart move would be to find and maintain a watch/embassy on King Roedran of Murandy. The activities of that nation have been a mystery for quite sometime. I'm personally convinced this is where you'll find Demandred's trail begin. That golden pipe that Mat was given has a 'Finder' woven on it, mark my words. This would have to be done delicately with Seanchan controlled Altara so close but Egwene can be delicate. We just haven't seen her act thus recently.

 

She should also marshall Far Madding. They should fall into line fairly quick confronted with a united White Tower. There is also the small item that Cadsuane channeled inside the guardians Saidar free zone.

 

She also has to deal with the Sea Folk Windfinders. There is something about the 'Bargain' that hasn't yet come to light. A way for her to maintain the dignity of the Aes Sedai while still fulfilling the terms. I'm looking forward to this missed loophole because Zaida din Parede Blackwing is going to be spluttering about it.

 

I see Egwene's role in this book as being largely political. The Amrylin Seat has been the epitome of power, security, and stability for nigh on 3000 years. Her personal battle skills notwithstanding it's much more important for a General to direct a battle than to fight one themselves.

 

I don't know how she would deal with the Borderlanders. I believe that has to be something Rand will complete. Since the four monarchs are all in Far Madding she might be able to establish contact with Rand or at least someone with access to him there.

 

Nice post. Count me as one that thinks Egwene has LOTS on her plate, and will be disappointed if those issues don't get much screen time.

 

As I see them:

 

1) Consolidating Her Reign. And getting AS doing useful things.

 

Get word to the 1/3 of AS sitting it out. Bring them in. Do the test. Alert Rulers to her plan and her reign. Let the world know the Tower is united, that TG is coming, and the Tower stands ready. Send emissaries to rulers. And send AS out to get things done.

 

2) A talk with Rand. The BT embassy (surely) and Seanchan (maybe) need discussed. As is how to best coordinate for TG. A discussion about the Aiel could also be productive.

 

3) Mesaana & The Black Ajah. Find here and neutralize her. Alert Rand and Rulers to the presence of other Blacks. Elayne in Caemlyn for certain.

 

4) The BT Embassay. Both Elaida and Egwene have lost contact there. Makes sense to talk to Rand first. But that is a lot of AS power missing (50+ sisters).

 

5) The Seanchan. Got to do something. And if a truce/plan is worked, she's going to want all sisters/accepted/novices back. Both from the raid, and Ryma and company from Falme, and any others. Still, breaking them with the fact the sul'dam can channel seems her best option. And the fact there are all those assassins in the Tower.

 

6) Ohter AS issues. The Oaths. The Windfinders/Bargain. Bonding Asha'man. What exactly should the Reds do now that saidin is clean. Dealing with that will be big, and telling sisters that it is true. Dealing with the failure during the raid. How to utilize all these novices and accepted. Getting rid of strength for determining precedence.

 

7) Other Randland Politics. Solidifying Elayne. The Borderlanders. The situation in Murandy. Arad Doman. Helping Lan?

 

8) Oh, and preparing for TG.

 

Not to mention the personal matter of Gawyn.

 

I understand not all this would have to be an Egwene POV, but a lot on her plate.

 

[TheAngryDruid]

Another worthwhile endeavor might be to take those big stacks of items of the power (from Rhuidean, from Altara, in the Tower, and even in Tear) and find out what the heck they do.

 

Once they realize that being burned out can be cured, and that finding ter'angreal is a sort of talent some possess, they can find out what they do. And potentially use them to great effect.

 

[Durinax]

eh I think she has to do other things first

 

1) stop repairing the tower and using the funds to build bigger armies

2) move gareth and most of the tower guard to a strategic place along with 20 or so sisters that can make a useful sized gateway on their own

3) start a dialogue with rand, promising to meet him in person away from the tower

4) make an action plan of defensive/offensive action

5) open a dialogue with seanchan, and send people into seanchan controlled land (mostly ebou dar) spreading word that suldam can channel

6) forsake all channellers who have been leashed for 8+ months they are too far gone

7) open dialogue with the black tower

8) make plans on how to unite the black and white tower so that all channellers can have a united system of checks and balances (preferably one where men have equal opportunity to women)

 

[csarmi]

On thought that occured to me is--why doesn't Egwene pull Elaida and the other Aes Sedai that were captured into the Dream and sever them from the True Source? Egwene must have met most sisters in the Tower by this stage--there were only two hundred. Evene if she could only find the dreams of half that stands the possibility of getting all who know travelling.

 

Besides, severed from the True Source the Aes Sedai would not be holdable by the a'dam. Sure the Seanchan might hold them for crimes. I'm not sure. It'd still be better than being leashed, even if it was execution. And ultimately they could be healed.

 

Of course its possible the a'dam protects your dreams, like Mat's medallion.

 

I don't know that. Egwene could access Tel'aran'rhiod with the a'dam on, or couldn't she? What about Moghedien? Yes, I do understand it's not the same.

 

If they CAN communicíte via dreaming, it gets really interesting, because it should occure to Egwene that it is possible. Ask the Wise Ones too, probably (and learn that Shaido Wise Ones are leashed as well, perhaps?).

 

What should Egwene do in this case? Contact Elaida and co. (pull her in, if needed) and talk to her. They could do several nasty things.

 

1) Pull them into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh (is that possible?) and help them out.

2) Sever them in the dream, tell them to wake up, take the a'dan off, go to sleep again, HEAL them in the dream, teach traveling and make them travel the hell out of there.

3) Keep communications up.

4) Make them SWEAR in the dream that they won't touch the One Power unless directly ordered to by Egwene herself (things related to spirits should be strong in the dream) - it should protect them.

5) Make them SWEAR in the dream that they will not use some weaves under no circumstances.

[Luckers]

She also has to deal with the Sea Folk Windfinders. There is something about the 'Bargain' that hasn't yet come to light. A way for her to maintain the dignity of the Aes Sedai while still fulfilling the terms. I'm looking forward to this missed loophole because Zaida din Parede Blackwing is going to be spluttering about it.

 

She could simply say 'piss off. No where in the Bargain did we agree to let you beat us. This act of agression severs all ties between us'.

 

Of course she does want to bring the Windfinders in, so I doubt she'll drop the bargain. Still, the same notion can be applied to demanding an official appology before the Aes Sedai act to meet the rest of their requirements, and would adequately forestall future abuses. Too many Aes Sedai forget that outside the subtle manipulations they like to play the Tower itself is a powerful political institution, and that they can actually meet people face on. It implies a degree of equality, which is why the Aes Sedai avoid it, but sometimes its necessary.

 

The Tower would not only hold there own, politically, against the atha'an Miere, but exceed them. They have connections, influence and prestige where the Sea Folk are a bunch of glorified merchants. The Atha'an Miere need to be reminded of that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

She also has to deal with the Sea Folk Windfinders. There is something about the 'Bargain' that hasn't yet come to light. A way for her to maintain the dignity of the Aes Sedai while still fulfilling the terms. I'm looking forward to this missed loophole because Zaida din Parede Blackwing is going to be spluttering about it.

 

She could simply say 'piss off. No where in the Bargain did we agree to let you beat us. This act of agression severs all ties between us'.

 

Of course she does want to bring the Windfinders in, so I doubt she'll drop the bargain. Still, the same notion can be applied to demanding an official appology before the Aes Sedai act to meet the rest of their requirements, and would adequately forestall future abuses. Too many Aes Sedai forget that outside the subtle manipulations they like to play the Tower itself is a powerful political institution, and that they can actually meet people face on. It implies a degree of equality, which is why the Aes Sedai avoid it, but sometimes its necessary.

 

The Tower would not only hold there own, politically, against the atha'an Miere, but exceed them. They have connections, influence and prestige where the Sea Folk are a bunch of glorified merchants. The Atha'an Miere need to be reminded of that.

 

Send them Cadsuane ;D

[Luckers]

Totally, dude.

 

Although no, I could see someone more dispassionate working here. Egwene needs to win them, not bully them. Sarene's style with Harine as opposed to Cadsuane's.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Totally, dude.

 

Although no, I could see someone more dispassionate working here. Egwene needs to win them, not bully them. Sarene's style with Harine as opposed to Cadsuane's.

 

Mmm, yeah, you're right, Sarene would work here. Corele, sarene and cadusane i think would do well as a team with the sea folk.

 

Sarene frustrating them with dispassion, Cadsuane with her arrogance(nto a bad thing IMO) and self assurance, and Corele because she is always smiling no matter what, that would frustrate them, they would have more than one "type" of frustration, thus would be more difficult to stomach

[Val Mickey]

On Elayne's journey with the Sea Folk, the Wavemistress remarks that as an Aes Sedai who served the Coramoor, Elayne should be treated as the Wavemistress of another ship, with bathing together etc. Egwene's penance to the sisters following Rand could be to send them to the Sea Folk. Thus the Aes Sedai are equal to the Windfinders, the Dragonsworn are 'punished', and things would be evened out.

[Durinax]

On Elayne's journey with the Sea Folk, the Wavemistress remarks that as an Aes Sedai who served the Coramoor, Elayne should be treated as the Wavemistress of another ship, with bathing together etc. Egwene's penance to the sisters following Rand could be to send them to the Sea Folk. Thus the Aes Sedai are equal to the Windfinders, the Dragonsworn are 'punished', and things would be evened out.

I dont think she will hand out penances to those ladies she blaims rand in its entirety

[Val Mickey]

Durinax, notice that I used the word punished in quotes, like this - 'punished'. ;) ;)

 

Plus, blaming Rand doesn't absolve an Aes Sedai from her (ir)responsibility of swearing fealty. Egwene believes that you do what must be done, and then pay for it. Also the Hall will call for penances, so Egwene will 'punish' them.

[farthammer]

Egwene could just open up the Thirteenth Depository to the entire White Tower and send the secret librarians back to them after she gets any bit of knowledge from them that she can. 

 

We've already seen the spiking of water supplies with forkroot.  The Seanchan have some flawed assumptions in regards to the Aes Sedai.  Luckily the White Tower itself completely surrounded with water, with rivers to the north and south.  Egwene and Leane are basically able to work cuendillar, it'd probably be a bit heavy handed to actually turn the entire tower into it but surely they must be able to think of a scheme to reinforce some parts of it.

 

Lure the Seanchan into over committing their forces on a siege of Tar Valon and basically turn it into a big Trojan Horse.  Use lightning to cover the channeling needed to blast them with a forkroot hurricane.

[Jemlin]

On thought that occured to me is--why doesn't Egwene pull Elaida and the other Aes Sedai that were captured into the Dream and sever them from the True Source? Egwene must have met most sisters in the Tower by this stage--there were only two hundred. Evene if she could only find the dreams of half that stands the possibility of getting all who know travelling.

 

Besides, severed from the True Source the Aes Sedai would not be holdable by the a'dam. Sure the Seanchan might hold them for crimes. I'm not sure. It'd still be better than being leashed, even if it was execution. And ultimately they could be healed.

 

Of course its possible the a'dam protects your dreams, like Mat's medallion.

 

I don't know that. Egwene could access Tel'aran'rhiod with the a'dam on, or couldn't she? What about Moghedien? Yes, I do understand it's not the same.

 

If they CAN communicíte via dreaming, it gets really interesting, because it should occure to Egwene that it is possible. Ask the Wise Ones too, probably (and learn that Shaido Wise Ones are leashed as well, perhaps?).

 

What should Egwene do in this case? Contact Elaida and co. (pull her in, if needed) and talk to her. They could do several nasty things.

 

1) Pull them into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh (is that possible?) and help them out.

2) Sever them in the dream, tell them to wake up, take the a'dan off, go to sleep again, HEAL them in the dream, teach traveling and make them travel the hell out of there.

3) Keep communications up.

4) Make them SWEAR in the dream that they won't touch the One Power unless directly ordered to by Egwene herself (things related to spirits should be strong in the dream) - it should protect them.

5) Make them SWEAR in the dream that they will not use some weaves under no circumstances.

 

Pulling anyone into your dream, or into Tel'aran'rhoid in the flesh is an EVIL thing as was clearly explained to her by the Wise Ones. I highly doubt Equwene will do that.  She has shown she is willing to kill sisters, to prevent them from being leashed and prevent the Seanchan from having them, true. HOwever, she did this in the heat of the battle, as well as on "normal" footing of using One Power in the flesh in the normal waking world.  

 

It is in her character to make hard and cold decisions when needed, but not to do something flat out evil.

 

[Hadilmir]

Pulling anyone into your dream, or into Tel'aran'rhoid in the flesh is an EVIL thing as was clearly explained to her by the Wise Ones. I highly doubt Equwene will do that.

As was traveling in the flesh. The Wise Ones are mistaking an action for an intent. An action is not evil just because an evil person does it, that's the exact opposite of the truth. That is like saying that since Michael Vick played Football that all NFL players are cruel to animals. Losing a touch of your humanity might be worth it to you to do something of value. Preventing thousands of deaths from a Gateway invasion from the Seanchan would be worth destroying a small amount of two dozen Aes Sedai's humanity, and even be considered a Good act since it is sacrificing the few for the many.