So where do you think TOM is going to leave off?

[FarShainMael]

Nah, that'll never happen. Too cheesy for words.

 

(JK  ;) )

 

..and anyway, Mat's hide is so scarred with wounds it won't fetch much at an auction.. ask Tylin..

 

 

[A Trite Pun]

Hi, thought I'd jump back into the discussion.

I think we might be setting ourselves up for a bit of disappointment.  We all expect the tower of ghenjei arc, Perrin's arc, and Black Tower arc to happen AND finish in TOM, not to mention all of the cast getting back together to invade SG.  Isn't it possible, even likely, that some of these arcs won't resolve until AMOL?  I mean, if they did all resolve, how long could AMOL possibly be?  Personally, I don't want to read a 700 page book that's one long extended battle.

[FarShainMael]

In fact, I don't think Mat and Perrin's arcs will finish there. I speculated elsewhere that ToM may end with Mat trapped in the ToG in a (seemingly) failed rescue attempt, and Perrin fleeing for his life (possibly he may take refuge in the ToG) and the curtain falls with Rand apparently dead (though whether actually and he's in T'A'R, by rumour, or by some sort of fakery I haven't speculated). Plenty of scope there for any number of ends to lie around loose, with the Forces of the Light well and truly on the ropes.

 

[Cirin]

   Thom thumbed his moustache slowly as he looked at the clouds in the distance.  Silver clouds, flashing with lightning that never reached their ears.  It was still far in the distance, but even with a dead calm in the air, he had no doubt that they would be hear soon.

   He turned his gaze away and gave his moustache one last stroke.  He was too old to worry about such things.  Best to leave the troubles of Tarmon Gai'don to others.  He had done his part.  It would have to be enough.  Moiraine had asked to speak with him, and he didn't want to keep her waiting.

   He scanned the camp as he limped towards his tent, his right leg stiff even in the dry air.  Everywhere men were preparing for battle: sharpening their weapons and muttering prayers to the Creator.  Thom wondered if the Creator could hear them, here within sight of Shayol Ghul.  They would need his help tomorrow.

   Occasionally soldiers would stop their work and glance up at him as he walked by, and he would respond with a quick flourish or a simple trick.  A gleeman did his best to maintain their spirits.  They had won some victories so far, but here within the Blight a man's spirit fell easily.

   As he neared his tent he drew himself up to his full height and straightened his clothes, double-checking that he was in proper order.  Thom Merrilin had been a Court Bard once, and although not as noble a profession as a gleeman, a Court Bard was expected to maintain a certain dignity and decorum.  He thumbed his long moustache once more, hesitating.  No time to lose your nerve now, fool. He thought furiously.  She'll be waiting for you.

   Thom took one last glance at the clouds in the distance before opening the flap of his tent and disappearing inside.  Tomorrow the world may burn at Tarmon Gai'don, but with any luck Thomdril Merrilin would burn tonight.

 

HERE ENDS BOOK THIRTEEN OF THE WHEEL OF TIME

 

 

;D That's how I'm predicting the ending.  Thomdril, you PLAYA!  :o

[kamros]

Wouldn't the end of the book be the beginning of TG? i think it would be more along the lines of:

All of the forsaken have grouped together bound by the Dark One so they would work together. Send to destroy a major city.

 

 

 

or maybe with a giant mutant Demandredzilla marching out of the ocean towards the Stone of Tear....maybe...

[Jong]

With the gholam drinking rand's blood.

 

The other possibility would be a reveal of someone who was turned by the 13 fades and dreadlords technique. Most likely candidates being Taim, Cadsuane, Moiraine, or Moridin.

[Random Man]

With the gholam drinking rand's blood.

 

The other possibility would be a reveal of someone who was turned by the 13 fades and dreadlords technique. Most likely candidates being Taim, Cadsuane, Moiraine, or Moridin.

Moridin? No offense, but have you been sharing the gholam's flask?

[Jong]

With the gholam drinking rand's blood.

 

The other possibility would be a reveal of someone who was turned by the 13 fades and dreadlords technique. Most likely candidates being Taim, Cadsuane, Moiraine, or Moridin.

Moridin? No offense, but have you been sharing the gholam's flask?

 

It seems that there are certain similarities between the story of Elan's conversion to the DO and what one would expect from a 13/13 scenario. I don't think that Myrdrraal were even around back then, but there are aspects of that story that do not add up for me.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai was considered a great philosopher in his time. His conversion to the DO was supposed to be based on a critical inquiry where

 

"he came to believe that the struggle between the Creator and the Dark One was not new to this world; it had, in fact, existed since the dawn of time in a cycle, using human pawns as champions. He believed that the Dark One would eventually be the winner and unmake the Wheel of Time, and so became one of the first Chosen by convincing himself of the logic of such a move." -- Wikipedia.

 

If time is a causality loop that is fully integral and complete (for example a sequence of actions ... A -> B -> C -> A... ) then any action that causes the sequence to stop would be a paradox. This implies that no matter what he does, he cannot take action that will cause the DO to win.

 

If on the other hand time is not a causality loop that is fully integral and complete -- then  this is not true and for example ... A -> B -> C -> Null is possible. Then time is not a loop -- it merely appeared to be a loop -- and his original premise was flawed. This implies that the future is unknown and there is no reason to think the DO will inevitably win.

 

In neither scenario is there convincing logic for becoming Ishmael.

[FarShainMael]

@Jong: We've already seen that time even in the WoTverse is not a repeating, unchanging loop.

 

We are told, for example, that Fain is new to this Turning, that there has never been anything like him before. So this Turning is different in at least one significant respect.

 

Secondly, the Dragon himself knows it isn't. In his present incarnation as Rand al'Thor, he has realised that each new Age, each new Turning, offers the chance to repair one's mistakes.

 

I mused about this myself in another post, and compared time not to a wheel, but to a screw thread.

 

Concerning the 13-13 effect, which accentuates the negative aspects of a personality so that they overwhelm the will: consider EMT's current nihilistic, defeatist attitude. If he was something of a pessimist when young, it might well have been the case that the 13-13 amplified this part of his personality sufficiently for him to 'convince himself of the logic' of vowing himself to the DO.

 

And, just possibly, his link with the Dragon may now start to reverse the effects of the 13-13.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

@Jong: We've already seen that time even in the WoTverse is not a repeating, unchanging loop.

 

We are told, for example, that Fain is new to this Turning, that there has never been anything like him before. So this Turning is different in at least one significant respect.

 

Secondly, the Dragon himself knows it isn't. In his present incarnation as Rand al'Thor, he has realised that each new Age, each new Turning, offers the chance to repair one's mistakes.

 

I mused about this myself in another post, and compared time not to a wheel, but to a screw thread.

 

Concerning the 13-13 effect, which accentuates the negative aspects of a personality so that they overwhelm the will: consider EMT's current nihilistic, defeatist attitude. If he was something of a pessimist when young, it might well have been the case that the 13-13 amplified this part of his personality sufficiently for him to 'convince himself of the logic' of vowing himself to the DO.

 

And, just possibly, his link with the Dragon may now start to reverse the effects of the 13-13.

 

Wasn't he the first of the Forsaken to go over to the DO, far before Myddraal were made.

[OptimusPrime]

With the gholam drinking rand's blood.

 

The other possibility would be a reveal of someone who was turned by the 13 fades and dreadlords technique. Most likely candidates being Taim, Cadsuane, Moiraine, or Moridin.

Moridin? No offense, but have you been sharing the gholam's flask?

 

It seems that there are certain similarities between the story of Elan's conversion to the DO and what one would expect from a 13/13 scenario. I don't think that Myrdrraal were even around back then, but there are aspects of that story that do not add up for me.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai was considered a great philosopher in his time. His conversion to the DO was supposed to be based on a critical inquiry where

 

"he came to believe that the struggle between the Creator and the Dark One was not new to this world; it had, in fact, existed since the dawn of time in a cycle, using human pawns as champions. He believed that the Dark One would eventually be the winner and unmake the Wheel of Time, and so became one of the first Chosen by convincing himself of the logic of such a move." -- Wikipedia.

 

If time is a causality loop that is fully integral and complete (for example a sequence of actions ... A -> B -> C -> A... ) then any action that causes the sequence to stop would be a paradox. This implies that no matter what he does, he cannot take action that will cause the DO to win.

 

If on the other hand time is not a causality loop that is fully integral and complete -- then  this is not true and for example ... A -> B -> C -> Null is possible. Then time is not a loop -- it merely appeared to be a loop -- and his original premise was flawed. This implies that the future is unknown and there is no reason to think the DO will inevitably win.

 

In neither scenario is there convincing logic for becoming Ishmael.

 

To you PoV, maybe not. You're not stepping into Elan Morins mind enough, otherwise you wouldnt be saying that.

[FarShainMael]

@Jong: We've already seen that time even in the WoTverse is not a repeating, unchanging loop.

 

We are told, for example, that Fain is new to this Turning, that there has never been anything like him before. So this Turning is different in at least one significant respect.

 

Secondly, the Dragon himself knows it isn't. In his present incarnation as Rand al'Thor, he has realised that each new Age, each new Turning, offers the chance to repair one's mistakes.

 

I mused about this myself in another post, and compared time not to a wheel, but to a screw thread.

 

Concerning the 13-13 effect, which accentuates the negative aspects of a personality so that they overwhelm the will: consider EMT's current nihilistic, defeatist attitude. If he was something of a pessimist when young, it might well have been the case that the 13-13 amplified this part of his personality sufficiently for him to 'convince himself of the logic' of vowing himself to the DO.

 

And, just possibly, his link with the Dragon may now start to reverse the effects of the 13-13.

 

Wasn't he the first of the Forsaken to go over to the DO, far before Myddraal were made.

 

I'd really like to think that EMT was 13-13d, if only to keep that technique plot-thread in the Pattern..

 

So, if EMT was the first Forsaken, if that particular 'gun on the wall' had been used on him, it must have been later. Possibly he was a pessimistic character anyway, and may have been 'encouraged' by other Shadow-aligned to become even more so. Something must have happened to change his mind (love problems?), and at that point, the DO sends in the posse of 13 DLs and 13 Fades.

 

Very speculative, I agree..

 

[Random Man]

@Jong: We've already seen that time even in the WoTverse is not a repeating, unchanging loop.

 

We are told, for example, that Fain is new to this Turning, that there has never been anything like him before. So this Turning is different in at least one significant respect.

 

Secondly, the Dragon himself knows it isn't. In his present incarnation as Rand al'Thor, he has realised that each new Age, each new Turning, offers the chance to repair one's mistakes.

 

I mused about this myself in another post, and compared time not to a wheel, but to a screw thread.

 

Concerning the 13-13 effect, which accentuates the negative aspects of a personality so that they overwhelm the will: consider EMT's current nihilistic, defeatist attitude. If he was something of a pessimist when young, it might well have been the case that the 13-13 amplified this part of his personality sufficiently for him to 'convince himself of the logic' of vowing himself to the DO.

 

And, just possibly, his link with the Dragon may now start to reverse the effects of the 13-13.

 

Wasn't he the first of the Forsaken to go over to the DO, far before Myddraal were made.

 

I'd really like to think that EMT was 13-13d, if only to keep that technique plot-thread in the Pattern..

 

So, if EMT was the first Forsaken, if that particular 'gun on the wall' had been used on him, it must have been later. Possibly he was a pessimistic character anyway, and may have been 'encouraged' by other Shadow-aligned to become even more so. Something must have happened to change his mind (love problems?), and at that point, the DO sends in the posse of 13 DLs and 13 Fades.

 

Very speculative, I agree..

 

Elan was the first to turn to the Shadow, so Fades didn't even exist when Elan announced his allegiance. They are a byproduct of the trollocs created by Aginor, who did so after he'd turned to the DO (which had to have been after Elan did). Additionally, it was Semirhage who discovered the 13/13 trick after she'd turned to the Shadow, which also had to be after Elan did so.

 

Elan was probably subtly corrupted (as many in the world were) by the DO's touch on the world (which brought about the Decline) which led him to see the struggle between Light/dark as the "glass is half empty" instead of how Rand ultimately saw it in Veins of Gold. Maybe Elan was a lonely emo sop beforehand and didn't see the bright side of continued existence. He did it to himself, though, by his own reasoning, just as Rand said in TGS.

 

EDIT: According to BWB info on Wotwikia, one of the more influential books EMT wrote was entitled Analysis of Percieved Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning (that might have been two separate books, not sure), so he was something of a nihilist pre-bore.

[FarShainMael]

That seems to wrap that up nicely, thanks.

 

(Mutters and shuffles off into corner for a quick PGGB and sulk. Now where's that recipe.. oh yes..

 

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bartending/Cocktails/Pan_Galactic_Gargle_Blaster

)

 

[Crael123]

   Thom thumbed his moustache slowly as he looked at the clouds in the distance.  Silver clouds, flashing with lightning that never reached their ears.  It was still far in the distance, but even with a dead calm in the air, he had no doubt that they would be hear soon.

   He turned his gaze away and gave his moustache one last stroke.  He was too old to worry about such things.  Best to leave the troubles of Tarmon Gai'don to others.  He had done his part.  It would have to be enough.  Moiraine had asked to speak with him, and he didn't want to keep her waiting.

   He scanned the camp as he limped towards his tent, his right leg stiff even in the dry air.  Everywhere men were preparing for battle: sharpening their weapons and muttering prayers to the Creator.  Thom wondered if the Creator could hear them, here within sight of Shayol Ghul.  They would need his help tomorrow.

   Occasionally soldiers would stop their work and glance up at him as he walked by, and he would respond with a quick flourish or a simple trick.  A gleeman did his best to maintain their spirits.  They had won some victories so far, but here within the Blight a man's spirit fell easily.

   As he neared his tent he drew himself up to his full height and straightened his clothes, double-checking that he was in proper order.  Thom Merrilin had been a Court Bard once, and although not as noble a profession as a gleeman, a Court Bard was expected to maintain a certain dignity and decorum.  He thumbed his long moustache once more, hesitating.  No time to lose your nerve now, fool. He thought furiously.  She'll be waiting for you.

   Thom took one last glance at the clouds in the distance before opening the flap of his tent and disappearing inside.  Tomorrow the world may burn at Tarmon Gai'don, but with any luck Thomdril Merrilin would burn tonight.

 

HERE ENDS BOOK THIRTEEN OF THE WHEEL OF TIME

 

 

;D That's how I'm predicting the ending.  Thomdril, you PLAYA!  :o

 

 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA YES GENIUS!!!

[Crael123]

I noticed that too, jadelollipop.  Everyone talks about how so much happens in books 1-4, and 5-6, and I think it's largely because up until that point, all the companions are more or less together.  It'll be fun to see them all get together again.

 

I see Towers of Midnight ending with the following sentence:

 

Moiraine knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once she did not care that Shaidar Haran watched her trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. "Have I not done well, Great Lord?"

The Great Lord's laughter filled Moiraine's head.

 

How's THAT for an unexpected twist!  :D

 

that would be.... ironic.

[Crossroad]

The Forces for the Light will be Gathered at the White Tower under the Leadership of the Dragon Reborn. Moridin and what is left of the Forsaken unknown to the Forces of the Light will also be present. That I believe will leave for the final book a house cleaning job for all the good guys before the battle at SG.

 

It is very dangerous to leave a back door open, leave your rear flanks unprotected if you are going into battle.

[Maji]

I have a feeling that ToM might end with Rand coming back to life, since I'm thinking he's gonna bite the big one. Perhaps it's the Lights renewed assault against the Shadow where ToM leaves off or perhaps just him dying and us having to sit on that for a year (which I really dislike that thought but could happen..) D;

[OptimusPrime]

Semirhage discovered the 13/13 thing did she not? Didnt Ishamael go over before her?

[Deadsy]

These two options have been stated before several times, and I think it's a toss up between the two, but I sincerely hope it's the first one.

 

 

1. Moiraine is rescued in the first 2/3 of the book. One of the climaxes is a battle of some kind (in Caemlyn or the Black Tower). Uh, I dunno what the other one is if it's not Moiraine's rescue :P. I guess Perrin's thing or the Borderlanders or Mesaana doing something.

 

2. Moiraine's rescue is one of the climaxes, along with a battle in Caemlyn or the BT. I really hope this isn't it. I don't want to wait another year+ to see her reunited with Rand. I want as much text as possible with her in it.

 

 

I think the Perrin/Wolves/Slayer thing could be one of the endings, but I think he'll reunite with everyone at the end, so it wouldn't be at the very end of the book. It's possible his big stuff is done in the first 3/4 and then he heads to Caemlyn. But I guess with Travelling he could do his Slayer thing and get to Rand quickly.

[The Desert Pea]

I have a feeling that ToM might end with Rand coming back to life, since I'm thinking he's gonna bite the big one. Perhaps it's the Lights renewed assault against the Shadow where ToM leaves off or perhaps just him dying and us having to sit on that for a year (which I really dislike that thought but could happen..) D;

I've grown fond of the idea that the last sentence of the book will be "The Dragon Reborn is dead.", leaving us to wait for AMoL with that massive cliffhanger.

[FarShainMael]

I like the idea someone else had on here in a different thread, so credit to whoever posted it.

 

The last sentence of the book is "The Dragon Reborn is dead."

 

Glad you liked it! ;)

[ChrisTrebing]

I think Rand will be collapsing under the pressure of readying for Tarmon Gaidon. During his darkest hour Rand will be sitting alone fuming and be told by an Aiel that someone is there to see him. He will look up in anger and say he was not to be disturbed. He looks at the door right as Moraine enters the room. BAM ending.

 

From what I've seen though it looks like everyone agrees that it will be a cliffhanger.

[Naffy]

Cadsuane's backside throbbed from the fall to the ground. As she rubbed her bruised chin, she wondered how such a small woman could throw such a hard punch. She looked up to see Rand laughing so hard tears ran down his cheeks. In a thousand ages, she would never have thought this was how Rand would learn what she had to teach him.

[Byzantine279]

Lol nice one naffy, i could see that happening, too (except that rand has already learned to laugh again, but meh).

 

Its going to end on cliffhanger, either for good or for evil, probably the "the dragon reborn is dead" or something similar.

 

On the moridin note: with his connection to rand, the logic that converted him to begin with may start breaking down, if it breaks down enough he may just change his mind...