Mat & Perrin, Ta'veren because of Rand?

[Karasayl]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that people are not born as Ta'veren. Is possible that Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren soley because of Rand's ta'veren influence? It offers a reason to bind them, especially since they can sense each other.

 

Thoughts?

[Durinax]

I suppose it is possible, since the DO has been exerting his influence the pattern would create more taveren to fix the wrongness and who better than the buddies of the saviour of the pattern, the dragon

[Mr Ares]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that people are not born as Ta'veren.

This is correct. The Wheel makes ta'veren.

Is possible that Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren soley because of Rand's ta'veren influence?

Given that ta'veren are made by the Wheel, not other ta'veren, and they all became ta'veren at the same time, no.

[Arkane101]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that people are not born as Ta'veren.

This is correct. The Wheel makes ta'veren.

Is possible that Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren soley because of Rand's ta'veren influence?

Given that ta'veren are made by the Wheel, not other ta'veren, and they all became ta'veren at the same time, no.

Also it is confirmed Mat is a hero out of legend, so he lives in TAR when not living. When he went to Rhuidean he asked about his past lives not to mention his past lives have been great generals but also known as gamblers which is what he is now.

[gambril]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that people are not born as Ta'veren.

This is correct. The Wheel makes ta'veren.

Is possible that Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren soley because of Rand's ta'veren influence?

Given that ta'veren are made by the Wheel, not other ta'veren, and they all became ta'veren at the same time, no.

Also it is confirmed Mat is a hero out of legend, so he lives in TAR when not living. When he went to Rhuidean he asked about his past lives not to mention his past lives have been great generals but also known as gamblers which is what he is now.

 

Confirmed, by what?  The only evidence of Mat's prior lives in WoT are those of the old blood of Manetheren, like he was a commander of Aemon's forces or something.  But other than that nowhere else can I recall it being mentioned that he was a hero out of legend.  He's just a trickster, gambler and forced battle leader by the pattern and his taverenes.

[Shadow Rider]

I read a quote somewhere(sorry I can't remember where) that states: Only the wheel can spin Ta'veren into the pattern and it purposely spun 3 Ta'veren in The Two Rivers.

[Cirin]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that people are not born as Ta'veren.

This is correct. The Wheel makes ta'veren.

Is possible that Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren soley because of Rand's ta'veren influence?

Given that ta'veren are made by the Wheel, not other ta'veren, and they all became ta'veren at the same time, no.

Also it is confirmed Mat is a hero out of legend, so he lives in TAR when not living. When he went to Rhuidean he asked about his past lives not to mention his past lives have been great generals but also known as gamblers which is what he is now.

 

Confirmed, by what?  The only evidence of Mat's prior lives in WoT are those of the old blood of Manetheren, like he was a commander of Aemon's forces or something.  But other than that nowhere else can I recall it being mentioned that he was a hero out of legend.  He's just a trickster, gambler and forced battle leader by the pattern and his taverenes.

 

I don't know that they ever do confirm him as a Hero of the Horn... although I do wonder sometimes if the Hornblower is not a Hero of the Horn as well... hmmm....  Odin did call the dead of Valhalla to battle at Ragnarok, after all, and was the leader of the Wild Hunt (along with the dead).  A Hero like the Dragon, anyway, that is spun out less often... so not really a "Hero" per se, but almost something more.

[gambril]

If anything, after his current incarnation as Matrim Cauthon I would imagine he will be made into a hero of the horn and we all know how well he'll like that. *cackles*

[Cirin]

Well, what I mean by "something more" is that we're told the Dragon is spun out when the Pattern needs him, but when you look at the archetypes, they're different.

 

Whereas the Heroes of the Horn generally correspond to mythical heroes, the main characters of Rand, Mat, and Perrin correspond more closely to actual mythical gods.  In a sense, they are a step above the "Heroes of the Horn."  In a sense, now that I think about it, I don't believe they are Heroes of the Horn.  They themselves are not bound to the Horn, they are the ones that sound it.  They're likely spun out less often because of the influence they wield over the Pattern - they're like the Patterns self-defense mechanism.

[OptimusPrime]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that people are not born as Ta'veren.

This is correct. The Wheel makes ta'veren.

Is possible that Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren soley because of Rand's ta'veren influence?

Given that ta'veren are made by the Wheel, not other ta'veren, and they all became ta'veren at the same time, no.

Also it is confirmed Mat is a hero out of legend, so he lives in TAR when not living. When he went to Rhuidean he asked about his past lives not to mention his past lives have been great generals but also known as gamblers which is what he is now.

 

Just to clarify, Mats memories are not past lives, theyre from people who went to Finnland. Mat, while having qulities of some heroes from our own myths, has never been linked to anything relating to the Wheel or Horn other than being Ta'veren and the Hornblower. Although I can totally see Mat standing with the Heroes of the Horn; he looks the part as much as anyone. People become bound to the Horn through acts of sacrifice. Mat giving up half the light of the world might make him qualify.

 

Id love Mat to be bound to the Horn but as far as we know his only link to it is being the one who used it.

[Majsju]

I read a quote somewhere(sorry I can't remember where) that states: Only the wheel can spin Ta'veren into the pattern and it purposely spun 3 Ta'veren in The Two Rivers.

 

The Wheel does not spin ta'veren into the Pattern, it makes people already existing in the pattern ta'veren.

[Duskfire]

I read a quote somewhere(sorry I can't remember where) that states: Only the wheel can spin Ta'veren into the pattern and it purposely spun 3 Ta'veren in The Two Rivers.

 

The Wheel does not spin ta'veren into the Pattern, it makes people already existing in the pattern ta'veren.

 

I would say both are true actually. While those three weren't born ta`veren, the Pattern obviously knew that he intended to make it so at some time. After all, so much had to happen for Rand to be born on Dragonmount, etc etc.

[Cirin]

I imagine Rand's showdown with Moridin being a battle of the wits, where Rand will win with logic.

 

Moridin:  You will lose someday, Lews Therin.  You must.  Eventually, the Great Lord will have his victory.

 

Rand:  Why?  What is the Dark One but merely another piece that moves to the Pattern's whims?

 

Moridin:  He is sealed outside Creation, Lews Therin.  Outside the Pattern itself, and when he is allowed to reshape it, it will become no more!

 

Rand:  Yeah, but Lews Therin was born some two or three hundred years before the Bore was even drilled.  If I close this thing everytime it opens, that means the Pattern always knows when and where the Dark One will break out, and, like clockwork, he does.  He's like a jack-in-the-box for the Pattern.  If he wants to screw with the Pattern, he should just NOT pass through the hole.  Just ignore it.

 

Moridin:  Yes, but... OH SNAP!

 

Edit:  Hmm... that seemed related to the topic of ta'verenness and this thread when I wrote it, but looking at it now it's kind of random.  Sorry about that.