Matts a better case for the Dragon then Rand!

[Skeeve the Great]

Well thank you but I am only allowing myself to see other possible solutions rather than accept the main stream Answer.

 

Like Earth is flat you mean?  :P

[farthammer]

Explain why the heroes of the horn only recognized Rand as the DR.

[Suttree]

Explain why the heroes of the horn only recognized Rand as the DR.

 

He will only say nonsense about Rand holding the banner or summat. Please stop treating this like a serious discussion and let it die. Nothing that has been stated on the side of Mat is even slightly credible.

[Bellanoire]

Damn thanks Canis for holding up my side of the argument, i've been kicked off the net all day!

 

"How many times does mat try to avoid the battle for sleep and peace?  Is Mat not leading Tow Rivers people into Battles in hope of getting peace? 

  j)well, maybe, but I don't think so. k)When we've already got something called the crown of swords, yeah, I'd say it's literal. and you need to look at the whole prophecy, it starts with: "Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm" How the heck is Mat the Master of the lightnings? l)again, this is just word twisting and does not fit nearly as well as the cleansing of sai'din. People thinking Mat's battle plans are mad does not have anything to do with wounds of madness though - I would not call that a wound.

 

j)opinions are after all, all we are going on in interpretation of the prophecies.

k)OK well seeing that rand just up and changed the crowns name to fit that particular prophecy in the first place,  and again the master of the lightnings ride on the storm, we have meantioned the senchane before, now as the prince of ravens his sigil will now have the hand clutching lighting bolts incorporated into his red hand sigil and fox chasing ravens with nine moons. if that doesn't say master of the lightnings nothing does.

i) I believe Matt was seriouly insain with madness when he had the dagger which we was cleansed of.

[Skeeve the Great]

You can try to explain away as many prophesies as you want, except you can't explain Callandor in the Tear. Only Dragon could've taken it the first time. Nobody else could've done it. There is no room for interpretation here.

[Durinax]

k)OK well seeing that rand just up and changed the crowns name to fit that particular prophecy in the first place,  and again the master of the lightnings ride on the storm, we have meantioned the senchane before, now as the prince of ravens his sigil will now have the hand clutching lighting bolts incorporated into his red hand sigil and fox chasing ravens with nine moons. if that doesn't say master of the lightnings nothing does.

isnt the hand clutching lightning bolts a sign of one of the forsaken or trolloc clan or soemthing like that.

[Bellanoire]

Well the sword could only be taken if the Stone fell, so once Matt broke the stone the weave on callandor is broken, allowing anyone to take it, rand only got there before Matt did.

[Bellanoire]

yes but the royal line of Senchane also has a steal backed hand cluthing lighting , different borders around the pennants declair what line from Hawkwing.

 

plus min also has a viewing of matt holding lightnings in his hand, in relation to him turing fireworks into a weapon against those who can channell.

[Skeeve the Great]

Well the sword could only be taken if the Stone fell, so once Matt broke the stone the weave on callandor is broken, allowing anyone to take it, rand only got there before Matt did.

 

That's not how it happened, you know that, don't you?

[Bellanoire]

 

 

He will only say nonsense about Rand holding the banner or summat. Please stop treating this like a serious discussion and let it die. Nothing that has been stated on the side of Mat is even slightly credible.

 

see if you look back you'd see there are very many things here that are credible your just choicing not to see.

[Bellanoire]

Well the sword could only be taken if the Stone fell, so once Matt broke the stone the weave on callandor is broken, allowing anyone to take it, rand only got there before Matt did.

 

That's not how it happened, you know that, don't you?

 

 

how can you say thats not what happened? Thats exactly what happened, as a matter of fact matt blowing a hole in the stone is so relavent that Rand heard it gong and so did perrine in the world of dreams. How can you not see that?

[Skeeve the Great]

how can you say thats not what happened? Thats exactly what happened, as a matter of fact matt blowing a hole in the stone is so relavent that Rand heard it gong and so did perrine in the world of dreams. How can you not see that?

 

See what? That Callandor can't be touched unless Dragon takes it out from the floor?

[Bellanoire]

how can you say thats not what happened? Thats exactly what happened, as a matter of fact matt blowing a hole in the stone is so relavent that Rand heard it gong and so did perrine in the world of dreams. How can you not see that?

 

See what? That Callandor can't be touched unless Dragon takes it out from the floor?

 

Well at that time Callandor was hanging in the air, not in the floor. It could only be touched after that weave was dispelled,if rand hadn't got to it before matt matt would have gotten it

[Skeeve the Great]

if rand hadn't got to it before matt matt would have gotten it

 

You are contradicting yourself. Prophecy says "Tear will fail when Dragon take Callandor". Since Mat didn't take Callandor, he couldn't be the Dragon.

 

If Mat in any moment of time even slightly touched Callandor you may have some sliver of hope. But since Mat didn't - your point is moot. Whoever touched Callandor when Tear felt is the Dragon by definition.  :)

[Bellanoire]

no the stone had to fall for Callandor to be touched, it doesn't specify how long after the stone falls, that matt the DR would have to take it.He will yet have calandor in his grasp, besides rand doesn't have it anymore either. Matt will probably take it from Cadsuane

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I didn't read any of this thread; I just came here to say

a.  Rand was born on dragonmount

b.  Rand took Callandor

End of story.  I like Matt to, he may edge out Rand a little but Rand is the DR.  He has LTT's memories at the least.  I like Mat but proof says Rand.

[Bellanoire]

that proff is highly subjective as we've already seen,

 

Rands memorys has now been shown to be nothing more then his maddness, not really LTT, rand only beat matt to the sword cause he never would been able to touch it if Matt hadn't taken the stone, as for being born on dragon mount, Canis has already pointed out that we don't know yet where matt was born, as new spring says there where babys being born all over there during the war, so rand is not the only one born on dragonmount, and like logain states true he wasn't born on there but hystory would have recalled that he was.

[Red Hand Man]

Here is a snippet of the Karaethon Cycle Prophecies regarding (what is widely interpreted as) Callandor (as shown on www.encyclopaedia-wot.org):

 

The Eye of the World Chapter 13:

 

"One of the Prophecies says that the Stone of Tear will never fall until the People of the Dragon come to the Stone. Another says the Stone will never fall till the Sword That Cannot Be Touched is wielded by the Dragon's hand."

 

It does not outright state that it is Callandor, just as the "Sword That Cannot Be Touched".  Anyways, my opinion is that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, however, at the end of the series it may be that each of the ta'veren can be shown to be the Dragon Reborn.

 

Perrin was also in the Stone (in T'A'R though) when it fell and has also bound the Seanchan to him (this is quite a tenuous connection to Perrin being the Dragon Reborn).

 

Regardless of how correct the argument is or not, it's still fun.  :)

 

[Bellanoire]

Nods, true, although in perrins case I think the one prophocy about a wolf kin is him, otherwise it could be elyas in which case it leaves room for Perrine to be the DR as well,

 

hmm maybe all three are the dragon reborn, the three shall be one, they refer to the three of them as the tripod, cut one down and they all go down.

[DemandredFO]

just because we've never seen living dinosaurs just bones should we doubt that the bones are real?  I've never sailed around the world either

[Bellanoire]

Exactly my point just cause we haven't seen it yet, or haven't heard of it doesn't mean that its not true.

[Rootbeer]

Correct if I'm wrong, but judging by the title, didn't you mean to say that Mat would make a better dragon reborn than Rand?

 

If Rj had meant to reveal Mat as the true dragon reborn, then all the things Rand did in the first few books would be meaningless. That means everything we know about the story has been turned upside down. It'll cause needless confusion and angst for the readers, and I doubt it'll be in a good way.

 

And if Rand's place isn't the Dragon Reborn, then what role must he play? Is he a mere distraction created so Mat, the "true" Dragon Reborn will remain safe? The pattern must have a sadistic side then.

 

Rand, Perrin, and Mat all have their own roles to play.

Revealing Mat as the Dragon Reborn is a cheap plot twist no one needs.

In fact, if it is revealed right now that you are correct, would you still be satisfy with the story? Would you not rage about how pointless it was to read about Rand fulfilling those so-called prophecies while Mat was the one who actually fulfill those very same prophecies in a very, very sketchy way.

 

It's a unique idea, but not all unique idea should be supported and cultivated. Especially when you basically have nothing but your own speculation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This is a ridiculous arguement, if you really believe this, you are a fool. Rand's memories of LTT is not just maddness, it is beacuse he IS LTT, true the actual voice was madness, but he knew all of thoes things beacuse he IS LTT, he remembers being the dragon, it is one of the attributes of the DR. Hawkwing said he was the dragon/LTT. Moridin/Ish. believe he is the DR, Lanfear and all of the Forsaken. Rand is more Ta'veren than mat, there are other prophecies regarding mat as the fox, the gambler etc..

"the blind man stands on his grave" Rand fulfills this. the wolves call him Shadowkiller, their own DR. He is the Aeil cheif of cheifs, he is the Coramoor. Mat was born in the TR, his parents were there and Nyaenve confirms it in the EotW. The Dragon Reborn is a weilder of the Power. The prophecies say he will cleanse the taint. The whole Heron's and Dragons, your a fool if you do not believe it, it cant be that much of a coincidence.

 

I can safely say that Mat is 100% not the Dragon Reborn. If you think otherwise, you should really actually read the series, beacuse clearly you havent. Or, you are just a fool, either one.

[Phariah]

how can you say thats not what happened? Thats exactly what happened, as a matter of fact matt blowing a hole in the stone is so relavent that Rand heard it gong and so did perrine in the world of dreams. How can you not see that?

 

See what? That Callandor can't be touched unless Dragon takes it out from the floor?

.

Well at that time Callandor was hanging in the air, not in the floor. It could only be touched after that weave was dispelled,if rand hadn't got to it before matt matt would have gotten it

ok seriously. the forsaken would have taken it than. Bel'al was there. he still could not take it because the weave was set that only the Dragon could touch it. he kept taunting Rand to take it because he could not. if the weave had fallen because the breach in the Stone he would not need Rand to grasp it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

TO give even more evidence, I continue

 

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

Direct Quote.

 

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

 

Rand, not Mat, knew of the truth of the Aiel, rand chained Asmodean to him, to teach.

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

The AS bent to Rand, not Mat

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

 

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.

 

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.

 

He shall break the nations, and shatter the world.

 

Rand cured the Taint. He tied the north/east. he breaks the nations

Mat has done none of thse things, except, in your highly doubtful case, bind the nine moons, which he hasnt really done.

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.

when the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.

 

Those are both the quotes regarding to Mat and Perrin. As one of you said before, Perrin is ruled out beacuse of his prophecy, so is Mat.

 

Tell me now that Mat could have done all of these things, and that Rand has not done them.

 

Furthermore, the Aiel and Jendai Prophecy.

 

The Stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn, and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back and he will destroy you.

 

He shall be marked by not one but two dragons on his arms.

 

Rand, not Mat.

 

We must wander the waters until the Coramoor returns, and serve him at his coming.

 

He shall wield the One Power, and hold the Sword That Cannot Be Touched. The Aiel shall come over the Dragonwall to his call, the Stone of Tear shall fall, and war shall break over the nations of the land. Those who once ruled shall return, and shall be driven back for the first time.

 

Mat doesnt wield the power. As for these two prophecies NOT being the Dragon Reborn, that is quite possible, but ALL 3 state he will wield Callendor and the Stone of Tear will fall to him. This cannot be Mat. It is impossible