My Plot Related Q&A With Maria Simons + New MAFO

[The Desert Pea]

[Malivar>If a Fades blade will not produce lighting except against other Thakandar wrought blades, and power-wrought blades, Why do Thom's daggers produce it when he attacks the Fade at Whitebridge?

 

[@R-JORDAN> thoms daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before thom reached the fade.

 

Yeah, it still needs to be asked.

 

Maybe the lip of the fade's sheath was made of power-wrought steel and he just likes to quickly draw the sword for dramatic effect.

 

Warning: the following theory has been produced by caffeine-fueled insanity:

What if Moiraine used a wish with the Finns to go back and save Thom in the past - the lightning was her channeling.

 

(Yeah, I know time-travel is probably impossible in the WoTverse - but I just had to put it out there because it was so crazy it just might be AWESOME 8))

 

 

That's so crazy it just might be CRAZY AWESOME

 

Seriously though, it's not something I'd entirely throw out of the picture. Stuff like real life time travel is something that greatly interests me so this is going to be one of the things I want to happen in the book but won't :P

[Charlz Guybon]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

Just look at this, if the strength increases by 1/8th (12.5%) per level, than 13 Daighan level Aes Sedai can hold Rand if he's 4 levels above the strongest woman. But increase it to 15% per level and it won't work.

 

12.5% per level

Daighan 1.424, Moraine 3.653, Egwene 5.202, Nyneave 7.406, Lanfear 10.545, Rand 16.891. 

 

13 * 1.424 = 18.512

 

15% per level

Daighan  1.521, Moraine 4.652, Egwene 7.076, Nyneave 10.761, Lanfear 16.367, Rand 28.625

 

13 * 1.521 = 19.773

 

 

[Loophole]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

Just look at this, if the strength increases by 1/8th (12.5%) per level, than 13 Daighan level Aes Sedai can hold Rand if he's 4 levels above the strongest woman. But increase it to 15% per level and it won't work.

 

12.5% per level

Daighan 1.424, Moraine 3.653, Egwene 5.202, Nyneave 7.406, Lanfear 10.545, Rand 16.891.  

 

13 * 1.424 = 18.512

 

15% per level

Daighan  1.521, Moraine 4.652, Egwene 7.076, Nyneave 10.761, Lanfear 16.367, Rand 28.625

 

13 * 1.521 = 19.773

 

 

 

I always though that 13 in a link was a special case that just automaticaly equaled win.. could be wrong. i have been up for a while.  :o

[Nightstrike]

Why?

[Morsker]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

I think the 13x shield is a special case, akin to all the weird rules in linking. The Creator wants the OP to foster cooperation, not megalomaniacs blowing up cities, so he gives groups an advantage in taking down renegades, gives linking to women exclusively, and makes women subject to involuntary rings, but the involuntary rings unable to include men. In all cases there are ways for renegades to be brought in no matter how powerful they are, with the greatest power reserved to men and women cooperating freely.

[FarShainMael]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

Just look at this, if the strength increases by 1/8th (12.5%) per level, than 13 Daighan level Aes Sedai can hold Rand if he's 4 levels above the strongest woman. But increase it to 15% per level and it won't work.

 

12.5% per level

Daighan 1.424, Moraine 3.653, Egwene 5.202, Nyneave 7.406, Lanfear 10.545, Rand 16.891.  

 

13 * 1.424 = 18.512

 

15% per level

Daighan  1.521, Moraine 4.652, Egwene 7.076, Nyneave 10.761, Lanfear 16.367, Rand 28.625

 

13 * 1.521 = 19.773

 

 

It occurs to me that perhaps when a circle is formed, strength isn't simply multiplied, but follows the maths of permutations and combinations:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation

 

This deals with calculating the number of ways a group of items can be arranged. EG suppose you have 3 items, a,b,c. You have a choice of three to put in the first position. you select and place. That leaves you with a choice of two for the second place, and only one for the third, giving 3*2*1 = 6 possible arrangements. With thirteen items (AS) you have (deep breath):

13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1

arrangements! (I'd work that out, but my calculator just died..) That would probably shield anybody!

(In short form that's written 13! or 'factorial 13')

 

OK, you can all wake up now.. ;)

 

[Tamyrlin]

1. The Above MAFO on Souls, Channeling and Talents [this can be found in the MAFO thread stuck at the top of the Gathering Storm Forum].

 

Question--Beyond the MAFO, I was going to ask for a clarification on this. Firstly I would point out a curiosity—in KoD: 23, Call to a Sitting, Tiana notes that many of the women who are strong in Nynaeve’s method of healing used to be village Wise Women. She wonders why that should make any difference, and indeed it does seem to imply that their life experience in some way affected their degree of Talent. How would this work out under the understanding of Talent as a soul-ability? Does life experience change the strength of the Talent, whilst soul-ability decides if you have it? Or should we make a distinction between Talents which are Skills—like Healing, or that Shielding Talent Berowin of the Kin has—and Talents which are Abilities—like Foretelling, Wolfbrothering or Dreaming?

 

Maria Answers--Okay, let’s look at this.  Why did these women choose to be  village Wise Women?  Maybe they haven’t sparked, but the Talent is there.  They may not understand it, but they feel that they should be healing the sick.  So, instead of life experience affecting the Talent, I think that it’s more that the Talent affects the life experience.  

 

Also, Aes Sedai have been taught that Healing is done one way, and that way is the only proper way.  It’s sort of like the gesture limitation; if an Aes Sedai learns to make weaves using gestures, she’ll have a really hard time making the weave without making the gesture.  I think that the former Wise Women are more open to learning the new way, and that gives them another advantage at it.

 

2. Question--Another curiosity would be that in Rand’s portal stone experience in tGH: 37, What Might Be, Rand sees versions of Egwene who are better at healing than Nynaeve. The Egwene of the story can barely heal. Are then the Egwene’s of the mirror worlds different souls with different abilities and Talents? Or would this again be evidence that experience can temper Talent?

 

Maria Answers--This one I have no clue on.   I lean towards the first explanation, but have no evidence to back it up, other than Jim’s assertion that Talents are something one is born with and cannot be learned.

 

No, Mirror Worlds do not contain different souls, which I believe is backed up well by the text as far as Tel'aran'rhiod, the Gap of Infinity, Portal Stones and answers we've been given during tours/interviews. If Mirror Worlds contained real souls, such individuals would have come to the Real World long ago through a variety of means such as Portal Stones.  

 

 

4. Question—On RJ’s Q&A on the Mirror/Parallel worlds from DragonCon ’05.

Q53: Are Parallel worlds and Mirror worlds the same thing?

RJ: No, they are different.

Q54: Do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

RJ: Possibly.

Q55: Do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

RJ: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

My thought was always that Mirror Worlds are reflections no matter how solid, whilst Parallel Worlds were completely distinct universes. As real and vital as our own. That was how Rand could lose in the Mirror Worlds and it not result in the Dark One winning. But that’s all my thoughts, I was mainly just wondering at the distinctions between the two, and whether the world Rand visited was special, or if that’s just my own stupidity in play.

 

Maria Answers—I think that you are correct, but I can’t back it up

 

Thought I'd give some context on why we asked those questions at DragonCon. We had been discussing the very kind of question you asked in number three about souls and Mirror Worlds because the BWB (BBoBA) makes a mistake, or what I always considered a mistake as far as I understood the concept. Here is the BWB quote:

 

"These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost."

 

This is incorrect. As Jordan states, Portal Stones connect Mirror Worlds, not Parallel Worlds. Although, the text is correct in stating that the beasts came from Parallel Worlds, as such worlds are Real and contain actual souls, such as the Finn and Ogier Worlds. The above quote has muddied the discussions of Mirror Worlds and the reality of its inhabitants in the past. Thankfully RJ answered those questions.

 

However, there is a way we can consider the BWB statement to be correct as far as it says that the knowledge that allowed their procurement was lost, although it requires twisting its meaning a bit. As we know, Mirror Worlds are reflections of Reality. In researching Mirror Worlds through Portal Stones, it is possible one led to the Reflection of a Parallel World (I say "possible" in the sense that we haven't asked - 'Is it possible to travel to a reflection of a Parallel World through the Portal Stones?), through which the researchers were able to acquire these beasts, but RJ rules out direct traveling from Real World to Parallel World via Portal Stones.

[Sentinel78]

2. Question--Another curiosity would be that in Rand’s portal stone experience in tGH: 37, What Might Be, Rand sees versions of Egwene who are better at healing than Nynaeve. The Egwene of the story can barely heal. Are then the Egwene’s of the mirror worlds different souls with different abilities and Talents? Or would this again be evidence that experience can temper Talent?

 

Maria Answers--This one I have no clue on.  I lean towards the first explanation, but have no evidence to back it up, other than Jim’s assertion that Talents are something one is born with and cannot be learned.

 

A simple explanation to this that I see is that, in the Mirror Worlds, Nynaeve and Egwene remain Wilders when Egwene has the superior Healing ability.  Egwene may simply have mastered saidar to a better degree as a Wilder than Nynaeve.  Nynaeve thereby could retain her higher raw Talent for Healing, but she'd barely ever be able to use it because saidar itself would, more often than not, elude her.  Thereby, when Rand judges their comparative skills, he sees Egwene Healing people 'pretty good' 80% of the time, and Nynaeve Healing 'awesome' 10% of the time, and concludes Egwene to be the better Healer, with Nynaeve's skills inconsistent and erratic.

[Tamyrlin]

2. Question--Another curiosity would be that in Rand’s portal stone experience in tGH: 37, What Might Be, Rand sees versions of Egwene who are better at healing than Nynaeve. The Egwene of the story can barely heal. Are then the Egwene’s of the mirror worlds different souls with different abilities and Talents? Or would this again be evidence that experience can temper Talent?

 

Maria Answers--This one I have no clue on.   I lean towards the first explanation, but have no evidence to back it up, other than Jim’s assertion that Talents are something one is born with and cannot be learned.

 

It appears that the simulations of the Wheel's past, present and future (Mirror Worlds) involve testing how specific events in one person's life affect channeling strengths and weaknesses.  Consider Maria's answer, "I believe that the potential for a Talent is there, but it doesn't necessarily manifest each time a soul is born.  If the Wheel needs the Talent, the Talent is there.  But if the Wheel doesn't need it, it lies dormant". One purpose of Mirror Worlds would be to help the Wheel decide which Talents are needed.

[Lacanos]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

Just look at this, if the strength increases by 1/8th (12.5%) per level, than 13 Daighan level Aes Sedai can hold Rand if he's 4 levels above the strongest woman. But increase it to 15% per level and it won't work.

 

12.5% per level

Daighan 1.424, Moraine 3.653, Egwene 5.202, Nyneave 7.406, Lanfear 10.545, Rand 16.891.  

 

13 * 1.424 = 18.512

 

15% per level

Daighan  1.521, Moraine 4.652, Egwene 7.076, Nyneave 10.761, Lanfear 16.367, Rand 28.625

 

13 * 1.521 = 19.773

 

 

It occurs to me that perhaps when a circle is formed, strength isn't simply multiplied, but follows the maths of permutations and combinations:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation

 

This deals with calculating the number of ways a group of items can be arranged. EG suppose you have 3 items, a,b,c. You have a choice of three to put in the first position. you select and place. That leaves you with a choice of two for the second place, and only one for the third, giving 3*2*1 = 6 possible arrangements. With thirteen items (AS) you have (deep breath):

13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1

arrangements! (I'd work that out, but my calculator just died..) That would probably shield anybody!

(In short form that's written 13! or 'factorial 13')

 

OK, you can all wake up now.. ;)

 

Circles are weaker than the sum of the parts.

However, circles have the advantage of greater precision. It's not quite mathematically sensible, yet you could just put it down to circles being more precise.

Or the use of the phrase "13 weakest Aes Sedai" means that the minimum requirement to be Aes Sedai in a circle of 13 is enough.

 

There's lots of channeling problems in theory - for example, Nynaeve is theoretically as powerful as a circle of 6 (both able to hold Logain) yet couldn't defeat two linked sisters. Or the fact that Logain is much, much more powerful than Semirhage (the 2nd strongest of the female forsaken) due to the fact she could be held by one woman.

[Morsker]

RJ admitted a lot of the who-shields-whom stuff was hand-waving. (For that matter, I expect the finer details of mirror words are pure hand-waving, since we know RJ didn't even like QM.)

 

Regarding Logain and Semirhage though, Logain probably didn't try to break Nynaeve's shield; he was just testing if he'd been healed or not. And cross-gender shields are supposed to be much harder to hold than same-gender shields.

[Sharaman]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

Just look at this, if the strength increases by 1/8th (12.5%) per level, than 13 Daighan level Aes Sedai can hold Rand if he's 4 levels above the strongest woman. But increase it to 15% per level and it won't work.

 

12.5% per level

Daighan 1.424, Moraine 3.653, Egwene 5.202, Nyneave 7.406, Lanfear 10.545, Rand 16.891.  

 

13 * 1.424 = 18.512

 

15% per level

Daighan  1.521, Moraine 4.652, Egwene 7.076, Nyneave 10.761, Lanfear 16.367, Rand 28.625

 

13 * 1.521 = 19.773

 

 

It occurs to me that perhaps when a circle is formed, strength isn't simply multiplied, but follows the maths of permutations and combinations:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation

 

This deals with calculating the number of ways a group of items can be arranged. EG suppose you have 3 items, a,b,c. You have a choice of three to put in the first position. you select and place. That leaves you with a choice of two for the second place, and only one for the third, giving 3*2*1 = 6 possible arrangements. With thirteen items (AS) you have (deep breath):

13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1

arrangements! (I'd work that out, but my calculator just died..) That would probably shield anybody!

(In short form that's written 13! or 'factorial 13')

 

OK, you can all wake up now.. ;)

 

 

No, we've been told several times that the strength of n linked channelers is less than the sum of their individual strengths.

So it's not combinatorial.

Shielding is so complex. It's much more difficult to grab the source once shielded and conversely much more difficult to shield somebody who is already holding the source. And there's the same-sex versus cross-gender shielding issues as well. 

 

I think Semirhage was in general, being held by circles of three women - at least, there were three involved on the night she was released. Logian would have been trying to grab the source with a shield on him and he may not have been trying too hard.

 

About the strength of channelers, RJ never said it increased in discrete, quantum jumps as is being postulated here; he divided channelers into levels for his own rough-guide convenience.

 

In analogy with physical ability, channeling strength would probably have a initially sharp slope up from average but the slope would get flatter and flatter as channelers got stronger and stronger.

 

Think of 100 metre sprinters for instance. The average fit young man runs 100 m in about 18 seconds. A lot of gifted athletes (decathletes, pro soccer and tennis players, fast bowlers) can run it in 11-12 seconds and that's a massive difference. An Olympic finalist will do it under 10 secs - not so massive a difference compared to the gifted athlete, but appreciable. However, the difference between Olympic gold and silver may  be 2/100th of a second - almost nothing.

Similarly the difference between a Daighan (average weak channeler) and a Nynaeve is huge but the difference between Nyn and Lanfear is much smaller. The difference between Moridin-Rand-Aginor, etc, is almost zilch. 

 

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Someone might have said this already, but mathematically the strength thing just is a bit off.

 

If Morgase is a 1, and strength increases by a set percentage for every level there after, then 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai couldn't shield Rand if Moraine is 3 times as strong as Daighan.

 

Just look at this, if the strength increases by 1/8th (12.5%) per level, than 13 Daighan level Aes Sedai can hold Rand if he's 4 levels above the strongest woman. But increase it to 15% per level and it won't work.

 

12.5% per level

Daighan 1.424, Moraine 3.653, Egwene 5.202, Nyneave 7.406, Lanfear 10.545, Rand 16.891.  

 

13 * 1.424 = 18.512

 

15% per level

Daighan  1.521, Moraine 4.652, Egwene 7.076, Nyneave 10.761, Lanfear 16.367, Rand 28.625

 

13 * 1.521 = 19.773

 

 

It occurs to me that perhaps when a circle is formed, strength isn't simply multiplied, but follows the maths of permutations and combinations:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation

 

This deals with calculating the number of ways a group of items can be arranged. EG suppose you have 3 items, a,b,c. You have a choice of three to put in the first position. you select and place. That leaves you with a choice of two for the second place, and only one for the third, giving 3*2*1 = 6 possible arrangements. With thirteen items (AS) you have (deep breath):

13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1

arrangements! (I'd work that out, but my calculator just died..) That would probably shield anybody!

(In short form that's written 13! or 'factorial 13')

 

OK, you can all wake up now.. ;)

 

There's lots of channeling problems in theory - for example, Nynaeve is theoretically as powerful as a circle of 6 (both able to hold Logain) yet couldn't defeat two linked sisters. Or the fact that Logain is much, much more powerful than Semirhage (the 2nd strongest of the female forsaken) due to the fact she could be held by one woman.

Assuming a set % increase per level (which could be wrong of course), it makes sense that Logan is far more powerful. Using the 12.5% example from above Semirhage would be a 7.406 and Logan would be a 15.014 if he's one level down from Rand. Given the precision bonus that women work under however, a woman as strong as Semirhage or Nynaeve should be capable of reproducing almost anything that Logan can do.

[Nightstrike]

I'd guess that Nynaeve hasn't the greatest dexterity among the women. Women can do just about anything that a man can do, but that doesn't necessarily say who would win in a fight. Men are stronger in earth & Fire. Maybe strength is more important in a fight than it would be when performing Healing, and so on?

[Charlz Guybon]

I'd guess that Nynaeve hasn't the greatest dexterity among the women. Women can do just about anything that a man can do, but that doesn't necessarily say who would win in a fight. Men are stronger in earth & Fire. Maybe strength is more important in a fight than it would be when performing Healing, and so on?

Shielding/breaking a shield seems to be one of the rare instances where brute strength really matters (with the exception of that kin member Nyn ran into).

[MikeRiley]

Logain was "flexing his muscles" as it was put in the books.. at least I think it was put that way. He had no intention of breaking Nynaeve's shield because that would leave him as one male channeler in a camp full of Aes Sedai. He immediately took up the "No she didn't" argument claiming he was not Healed to try and bluff his way out.

[Mr Ares]

9. Question--In [LoC; 30, To Heal Again - 617] Siuan, after being healed, says to Nynaeve that ‘if she could heal her to half of what she was’ she would be better off. This has led to the perception that Siuan and Leane are less than half their original strength. Yet in [CoT; 19, Surprises – 459]  we find out that both women stand several steps above the Aes Sedai minimum strength. This seems problematic—the range of Aes Sedai strength does not appear to be so great as to allow for this. So the question is, did Siuan and Leane in fact lose such a large amount of strength as they appear to have?

 

Maria Answers--Yes, they did lose a large amount of strength.  The range of strength is greater than you think, I believe.  At the beginning, Siuan was near the top (and Leane close behind); if she were half the strength she used to be, she’d be in the middle. Instead, she’s somewhere in the lower half, but not absolute rock bottom, nor nearly as low as Daigian Moseneillin.

 

*screams in anguish*

 

If one of you laughs at me I will slam you with the banhammer so hard you'll be banned from the internet.

*Fights to keep a straight face* None of us would do anything like that. *Sniggers*

[Luckers]

God damn I hate you.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

It's nice to know my efforts are appreciated.

[Luckers]

Your sigs too big.

 

*sticks out tongue*

 

 

 

(Is anyone scared that they made me an Admin? I am).

[Mr Ares]

Your sigs too big.

Size matters not.

(Is anyone scared that they made me an Admin? I am).

It could be worse, they could have given me the job. But if you ever need another mod to help you turn this place into a police state...

[Luckers]

It could be worse, they could have given me the job. But if you ever need another mod to help you turn this place into a police state...

 

You mean like if anyone argues with me they die? You make a persuasive argument.

[Lacanos]

It could be worse, they could have given me the job. But if you ever need another mod to help you turn this place into a police state...

 

You mean like if anyone argues with me they die? You make a persuasive argument.

More that anyone who cracks a joke dies.

I'm never going to give up on your statement that you have no sense of humour :P (Mr Ares)

The first sign to the contrary I'll be ON IT ;)

[Elgee]

I'm bringing popcorn to THIS show  ;D

[Luckers]

I love you deeply Elgee. You do know that?