Which major cities will be destroyed in the last two books?

[Random Man]

I doubt Maradon will fall, Saldea is the strongest border state and those 50,000 Domani and 100 Asha'man will make the difference. Saldea will be hit before news makes it out of that black hole of despair.

 

Ituralde right now has the only army of any size in Saldaea because the vast majority of the Saldaean army is in Far Madding. The Borderlanders didn't leave behind anything more than a token force to watch over a very quiet Blight. The trollocs sighted gathering along the Saldaean Blight border are sufficient to "overrun" his army -- suggesting hundreds of thousands (or even more -- millions?) are massing there. If Ituralde sticks around, he'd be able to send asha'man to deliver warning, retreat to Maradon and hope to hold it until help arrived, but what if Ituralde returns to Arad Doman, as Rand expects will happen? There won't be anyone to stop or slow the trolloc advance until it's too late for Maradon (which would certainly be a prime target for the Shadowspawn forces to blitz and crush)

 

If we're going to see some major cities fall, Maradon doesn't have much going in favor of its survival right now.

Saldea likely left at least 100k men there, Ituralde's 50k and 100 Ahsa'man more than replace the 60k men out of the country.

 

Where'd you get those numbers of Saldaean soldiers from? From what I gather, the Borderlanders took the majority of their troops with them, not just a fraction of them. I don't buy it; Rand wouldn't feel the need to send Ituralde to Saldaea if they still had that many troops there. He'd send Ituralde to another Borderland nation. It's quite clear that the Borderlanders stripped their garrisons before they marched south (evidenced by some of them being concerned about taking so many soldiers with them). I'd be surprised if there were more than 20-30k left in Saldaea, spread out across the entire nation. It's enough to stop small armies of several thousand trollocs -- much bigger than the average raid -- but nothing bigger (i.e. Trolloc War-level armies, which were in the tens of thousands).

 

Additionally, a lot of what will happen hangs on whether Ituralde stays in Saldaea or leaves. He's going to feel betrayed by Rand once news reaches him that Rand pulled out of Arad Doman.

[Charlz Guybon]

They left behind enough to guard against anything but the Trolloc Wars (which is what they'll get). That doesn't sound like a small force to me.

 

That 100k is a lowball figure. Saldea is as large as eastern Andor (the populated half) and far more militarized. I'd be very surprised if Saldea couldn't equal Andor's 200k men so that'd be 140k left behind. I'd estimate the smaller three borderlands could muster 150k in all so they left behind about 100k each. That's nothing though compared to the numbers of Trollocs that will pour forth, especially since those troops will be tied up in garrison duty across the nation. What the monarchs took was the mobile reserve.

 

How can that info reach him out of the anarchy? And anyways what could Rand do at the point? Nothing.

[Random Man]

They left behind enough to guard against anything but the Trolloc Wars (which is what they'll get). That doesn't sound like a small force to me.

If you are to take the "anything but the trolloc wars" quote at face value (which I don't, it seems more like reassurance for rulers afraid they left the Blight undefended) we're still not talking about huge numbers of troops left behind. The Trolloc Wars had armies of Trollocs numbering in the tens of thousands (the army that came against Manetheran was perhaps 50,000 strong). A memorable raid from the Blight may see a thousand trollocs involved. Say that they were cautious enough to leave behind forces able to counter a force five times that size -- a raid that would be sung about for the next hundred years. On defense, you'd only need equal numbers to obliterate the enemy. On offense, three times the enemy's number is a good bet to ensure victory. You're still talking only 15,000 soldiers if they were needed to route a 5,000-strong trolloc army from their defensive position. If the Saldaeans were to remain on defense (as would make sense, since they would be anticipating an attack from the Blight) with 20,000 soldiers they'd feel secure from any sizable army short of one out of the Trolloc Wars.

 

That 100k is a lowball figure. Saldea is as large as eastern Andor (the populated half) and far more militarized. I'd be very surprised if Saldea couldn't equal Andor's 200k men so that'd be 140k left behind. I'd estimate the smaller three borderlands could muster 150k in all so they left behind about 100k each. That's nothing though compared to the numbers of Trollocs that will pour forth, especially since those troops will be tied up in garrison duty across the nation. What the monarchs took was the mobile reserve.

Except Andor doesn't have 200k men. The three armies involved in the siege of Caemlyn totaled to 80k. This includes the mercenaries Elayne had to hire and with her aggressive recruitment of any man who was willing to fight. She had only about 20k, Amylindra had 30k and IIRC the third, undeclared group had about the same amount as Amylindra.

 

If you were to draft every able-bodied person, I'm sure that you'd get a sizeable militia of the numbers you're claiming. Likely higher. But you'd have to call them up and train them to fight as a group. That would take some time.

 

The monarchs didn't take their mobile reserve. They took their standing armies. Otherwise there wouldn't be such concern voiced among them about whether they left the Blight undefended.

 

How can that info reach him out of the anarchy? And anyways what could Rand do at the point? Nothing.

Rumor travels fast, and there isn't much Rand can do about it. But if Ituralde leaves, there goes Rand's early warning of a trolloc attack unless he leaves the asha'man in Saldaea to watch for it.

[Durinax]

Quote from: Charlz Guybon on Today at 07:44:57 PM

That 100k is a lowball figure. Saldea is as large as eastern Andor (the populated half) and far more militarized. I'd be very surprised if Saldea couldn't equal Andor's 200k men so that'd be 140k left behind. I'd estimate the smaller three borderlands could muster 150k in all so they left behind about 100k each. That's nothing though compared to the numbers of Trollocs that will pour forth, especially since those troops will be tied up in garrison duty across the nation. What the monarchs took was the mobile reserve.

 

Except Andor doesn't have 200k men. The three armies involved in the siege of Caemlyn totaled to 80k. This includes the mercenaries Elayne had to hire and with her aggressive recruitment of any man who was willing to fight. She had only about 20k, Amylindra had 30k and IIRC the third, undeclared group had about the same amount as Amylindra.

 

If you were to draft every able-bodied person, I'm sure that you'd get a sizeable militia of the numbers you're claiming. Likely higher. But you'd have to call them up and train them to fight as a group. That would take some time.

 

The monarchs didn't take their mobile reserve. They took their standing armies. Otherwise there wouldn't be such concern voiced among them about whether they left the Blight undefended.

 

elayne still has alot of armsmen roaming the country side who got stuck outside the gates and away from the city when the siege started, although those would number probably around 5-10 thousand

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

[Durinax]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

for ebou dar, shadow coast has some steddings that may not be blocked up yet

 

as for far madding it could be a very good staging point, the prerequisite being that Shienar falls along with cairhien and aringill. or the toher way  Kandor or saldaea, caemlyn, far madding.

 

 

anyone know why Godan is on the map?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Also, unless something has changed with the Black Wind, the Shadow will be unable to transport large numbers of Trollocs quickly through the Ways. I don't see any of the interior cities being under immediate serious danger from Trollocs, at least until the Borderlands are destroyed.

 

With the Borderlands, they could probably be overrun any day. I agree that the quote about them leaving enough forces to stop anything short of the Trolloc Wars was probably true to the rulers when they said it, but I don't think they realized that the Last Battle will be at LEAST equal to the trolloc wars, and most likely even larger. They also have forgotten that the Last Battle is coming VERY SOON. So unless Rand goes back to the Borderlanders and reasons with them, then Travel's them back to the Borderlands VERY soon, I can see the Borderlands falling quickly.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Double post my bad.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

for ebou dar, shadow coast has some steddings that may not be blocked up yet

 

as for far madding it could be a very good staging point, the prerequisite being that Shienar falls along with cairhien and aringill. or the toher way  Kandor or saldaea, caemlyn, far madding.

 

 

anyone know why Godan is on the map?

 

If I'm not mistaken, Far Madding is pretty far south. Like REALLY far south. I don't see the Shadow making a special effort to attack a city that poses no immediate threat to them (no warriors, no channelers) just to secure a base. They would have to leave it sooner or later, and its not close enough to any other major city to be more than just a good staging point.

[Random Man]

Also, unless something has changed with the Black Wind, the Shadow will be unable to transport large numbers of Trollocs quickly through the Ways. I don't see any of the interior cities being under immediate serious danger from Trollocs, at least until the Borderlands are destroyed.

When the Black Wind started tracking Rand in TGH, I started suspecting something was up with it. It certainly hasn't prevented tens of thousands from moving at will through the Ways. We had Loial temporarily lock the gate to Manetheran in TSR, and within weeks it was unlocked again and thousands more flooded into the Two Rivers. Machin Shin is apparently no barrier to massing large Shadowspawn armies.

 

 

With the Borderlands, they could probably be overrun any day. I agree that the quote about them leaving enough forces to stop anything short of the Trolloc Wars was probably true to the rulers when they said it, but I don't think they realized that the Last Battle will be at LEAST equal to the trolloc wars, and most likely even larger. They also have forgotten that the Last Battle is coming VERY SOON. So unless Rand goes back to the Borderlanders and reasons with them, then Travel's them back to the Borderlands VERY soon, I can see the Borderlands falling quickly.

That's my impression as well. They weren't really facing the reality of Tarmon Gai'don being imminent when they took their forces away from the Blight. This seems really stupid on their part, seeing as that they know the Dragon has been reborn and that the Shadow could make its opening blows whenever it wants to, not just when it's convenient for the Borderlanders.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Also, unless something has changed with the Black Wind, the Shadow will be unable to transport large numbers of Trollocs quickly through the Ways. I don't see any of the interior cities being under immediate serious danger from Trollocs, at least until the Borderlands are destroyed.

When the Black Wind started tracking Rand in TGH, I started suspecting something was up with it. It certainly hasn't prevented tens of thousands from moving at will through the Ways. We had Loial temporarily lock the gate to Manetheran in TSR, and within weeks it was unlocked again and thousands more flooded into the Two Rivers. Machin Shin is apparently no barrier to massing large Shadowspawn armies.

 

 

With the Borderlands, they could probably be overrun any day. I agree that the quote about them leaving enough forces to stop anything short of the Trolloc Wars was probably true to the rulers when they said it, but I don't think they realized that the Last Battle will be at LEAST equal to the trolloc wars, and most likely even larger. They also have forgotten that the Last Battle is coming VERY SOON. So unless Rand goes back to the Borderlanders and reasons with them, then Travel's them back to the Borderlands VERY soon, I can see the Borderlands falling quickly.

That's my impression as well. They weren't really facing the reality of Tarmon Gai'don being imminent when they took their forces away from the Blight. This seems really stupid on their part, seeing as that they know the Dragon has been reborn and that the Shadow could make its opening blows whenever it wants to, not just when it's convenient for the Borderlanders.

 

The gate was unlocked at Manetheren by Slayer, I think he tells Perrin that. It's locked permanently when Loial goes up there and takes both leaves.

 

Yeah, its strange how the Shadow is moving such large numbers, maybe they are sending huge numbers through the Ways and having a fraction come out? I wondor if the Black Wind ever gets full of souls... O.o. <---Pure Speculation.

[Charlz Guybon]

They left behind enough to guard against anything but the Trolloc Wars (which is what they'll get). That doesn't sound like a small force to me.

If you are to take the "anything but the trolloc wars" quote at face value (which I don't, it seems more like reassurance for rulers afraid they left the Blight undefended) we're still not talking about huge numbers of troops left behind. The Trolloc Wars had armies of Trollocs numbering in the tens of thousands (the army that came against Manetheran was perhaps 50,000 strong). A memorable raid from the Blight may see a thousand trollocs involved. Say that they were cautious enough to leave behind forces able to counter a force five times that size -- a raid that would be sung about for the next hundred years. On defense, you'd only need equal numbers to obliterate the enemy. On offense, three times the enemy's number is a good bet to ensure victory. You're still talking only 15,000 soldiers if they were needed to route a 5,000-strong trolloc army from their defensive position. If the Saldaeans were to remain on defense (as would make sense, since they would be anticipating an attack from the Blight) with 20,000 soldiers they'd feel secure from any sizable army short of one out of the Trolloc Wars.

 

That 100k is a lowball figure. Saldea is as large as eastern Andor (the populated half) and far more militarized. I'd be very surprised if Saldea couldn't equal Andor's 200k men so that'd be 140k left behind. I'd estimate the smaller three borderlands could muster 150k in all so they left behind about 100k each. That's nothing though compared to the numbers of Trollocs that will pour forth, especially since those troops will be tied up in garrison duty across the nation. What the monarchs took was the mobile reserve.

Except Andor doesn't have 200k men. The three armies involved in the siege of Caemlyn totaled to 80k. This includes the mercenaries Elayne had to hire and with her aggressive recruitment of any man who was willing to fight. She had only about 20k, Amylindra had 30k and IIRC the third, undeclared group had about the same amount as Amylindra.

 

If you were to draft every able-bodied person, I'm sure that you'd get a sizeable militia of the numbers you're claiming. Likely higher. But you'd have to call them up and train them to fight as a group. That would take some time.

 

The monarchs didn't take their mobile reserve. They took their standing armies. Otherwise there wouldn't be such concern voiced among them about whether they left the Blight undefended.

 

How can that info reach him out of the anarchy? And anyways what could Rand do at the point? Nothing.

Rumor travels fast, and there isn't much Rand can do about it. But if Ituralde leaves, there goes Rand's early warning of a trolloc attack unless he leaves the asha'man in Saldaea to watch for it.

Okay I see what's wrong. You're just off on your numbers. If you have the BWB you'll see that the armies of the Trolloc Wars numbered in the hundreds of thousands. There were battles with 300k men on one side and twice as many Trollocs on the other. There were probably 500k Trollocs in the army that came for Manetheren.

 

You have to remember gunpowder aside this is a late 18th/early 19th century setting. The westlands cover more than six million sq miles. Given the size of the major capitals like Caemyln that have 300,000 people (TV 500,000) and the rural population needed to sustain them given the technology available, such armies are entirely feasible. Back when the continent was fully settled there were probably 250 million people, now there's probably half that. (I'll note that with that even with that high, the West would have a significantly lower population density than 14th century France)

 

Elayne says twice in two different books that they could match the Borderland army in the Bream wood though many of the men would be inexperienced levies. The borderlands on the other hand are highly militarized with a large standing army and all able bodied men are enlisted in a militia.

[Random Man]

They left behind enough to guard against anything but the Trolloc Wars (which is what they'll get). That doesn't sound like a small force to me.

If you are to take the "anything but the trolloc wars" quote at face value (which I don't, it seems more like reassurance for rulers afraid they left the Blight undefended) we're still not talking about huge numbers of troops left behind. The Trolloc Wars had armies of Trollocs numbering in the tens of thousands (the army that came against Manetheran was perhaps 50,000 strong). A memorable raid from the Blight may see a thousand trollocs involved. Say that they were cautious enough to leave behind forces able to counter a force five times that size -- a raid that would be sung about for the next hundred years. On defense, you'd only need equal numbers to obliterate the enemy. On offense, three times the enemy's number is a good bet to ensure victory. You're still talking only 15,000 soldiers if they were needed to route a 5,000-strong trolloc army from their defensive position. If the Saldaeans were to remain on defense (as would make sense, since they would be anticipating an attack from the Blight) with 20,000 soldiers they'd feel secure from any sizable army short of one out of the Trolloc Wars.

 

That 100k is a lowball figure. Saldea is as large as eastern Andor (the populated half) and far more militarized. I'd be very surprised if Saldea couldn't equal Andor's 200k men so that'd be 140k left behind. I'd estimate the smaller three borderlands could muster 150k in all so they left behind about 100k each. That's nothing though compared to the numbers of Trollocs that will pour forth, especially since those troops will be tied up in garrison duty across the nation. What the monarchs took was the mobile reserve.

Except Andor doesn't have 200k men. The three armies involved in the siege of Caemlyn totaled to 80k. This includes the mercenaries Elayne had to hire and with her aggressive recruitment of any man who was willing to fight. She had only about 20k, Amylindra had 30k and IIRC the third, undeclared group had about the same amount as Amylindra.

 

If you were to draft every able-bodied person, I'm sure that you'd get a sizeable militia of the numbers you're claiming. Likely higher. But you'd have to call them up and train them to fight as a group. That would take some time.

 

The monarchs didn't take their mobile reserve. They took their standing armies. Otherwise there wouldn't be such concern voiced among them about whether they left the Blight undefended.

 

How can that info reach him out of the anarchy? And anyways what could Rand do at the point? Nothing.

Rumor travels fast, and there isn't much Rand can do about it. But if Ituralde leaves, there goes Rand's early warning of a trolloc attack unless he leaves the asha'man in Saldaea to watch for it.

Okay I see what's wrong. You're just off on your numbers. If you have the BWB you'll see that the armies of the Trolloc Wars numbered in the hundreds of thousands. There were battles with 300k men on one side and twice as many Trollocs on the other. There were probably 500k Trollocs in the army that came for Manetheren.

 

You have to remember gunpowder aside this is a late 18th/early 19th century setting. The westlands cover more than six million sq miles. Given the size of the major capitals like Caemyln that have 300,000 people (TV 500,000) and the rural population needed to sustain them given the technology available, such armies are entirely feasible. Back when the continent was fully settled there were probably 250 million people, now there's probably half that. (I'll note that with that even with that high, the West would have a significantly lower population density than 14th century France)

 

Elayne says twice in two different books that they could match the Borderland army in the Bream wood though many of the men would be inexperienced levies. The borderlands on the other hand are highly militarized with a large standing army and all able bodied men are enlisted in a militia.

I'm not the only one off on my numbers. Don't forget the BWB wasn't meant to be a perfect history. I'd put more stock in Moiraine's rendition of the battle, which she most likely learned from the White Tower histories. And in any event, your estimation of numbers is still quite arbitrary. Half a million trollocs would be at least five times the number Rand faced down in KoD with a large number of channelers at his side. How many of these do you think were left after the Manetheran resistance was broken? There's no way Eldrene could have destroyed even a fifth of the original number by herself, even drawing more power than she could handle. That would be the equivalent of her destroying, by herself, the entire force of trollocs sent against Algarin's mannor.

 

Additionally, I don't agree with the 18th/19th century setting you're positing. For starters, standing armies in the hundreds of thousands (or more) only became common with the late 19th century introduction of conscription. It wasn't until World War I that the world saw hundreds of thousands of soldiers on each side of a battle. Also, the population levels of the Westlands and that of, say western Europe in that time period don't compare. The population of the Westlands has been in decline for a number of centuries. I'd say your estimate of Caemlyn and Tar Valon's populations are way too high. Also, without conscription, you'd expect about 1 percent of the total population to be professional soldiers, with perhaps a bit of give and take due to national pressures and the like. Your estimate of the Westlands at 125 million puts the total numbers of soldiers currently ready to fight at perhaps 1.5 million, which is at the high end of the estimates I've seen regarding total troop strength, and this includes the Aiel.

 

I'm sure that if Elayne were to embark upon a massive conscription campaign she'd be able to raise an army in the hundreds of thousands. So could Saldaea. Whether they'd be much more than trolloc fodder without sufficient time to gather is another matter. A local militia might be able to gather within a few days to deal with a single fist of trollocs on a raid, but a supermassive trolloc army? It's going to be messy for Saldaea.

[Charlz Guybon]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

for ebou dar, shadow coast has some steddings that may not be blocked up yet

 

as for far madding it could be a very good staging point, the prerequisite being that Shienar falls along with cairhien and aringill. or the toher way  Kandor or saldaea, caemlyn, far madding.

 

 

anyone know why Godan is on the map?

 

If I'm not mistaken, Far Madding is pretty far south. Like REALLY far south. I don't see the Shadow making a special effort to attack a city that poses no immediate threat to them (no warriors, no channelers) just to secure a base. They would have to leave it sooner or later, and its not close enough to any other major city to be more than just a good staging point.

The Highlords built the city has counterweight to Mayne, so I'm guessing it's decent sized but doesn't rival the capital.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm not the only one off on my numbers. Don't forget the BWB wasn't meant to be a perfect history. I'd put more stock in Moiraine's rendition of the battle, which she most likely learned from the White Tower histories. And in any event, your estimation of numbers is still quite arbitrary. Half a million trollocs would be at least five times the number Rand faced down in KoD with a large number of channelers at his side. How many of these do you think were left after the Manetheran resistance was broken? There's no way Eldrene could have destroyed even a fifth of the original number by herself, even drawing more power than she could handle. That would be the equivalent of her destroying, by herself, the entire force of trollocs sent against Algarin's mannor.

 

Additionally, I don't agree with the 18th/19th century setting you're positing. For starters, standing armies in the hundreds of thousands (or more) only became common with the late 19th century introduction of conscription. It wasn't until World War I that the world saw hundreds of thousands of soldiers on each side of a battle. Also, the population levels of the Westlands and that of, say western Europe in that time period don't compare. The population of the Westlands has been in decline for a number of centuries. I'd say your estimate of Caemlyn and Tar Valon's populations are way too high. Also, without conscription, you'd expect about 1 percent of the total population to be professional soldiers, with perhaps a bit of give and take due to national pressures and the like. Your estimate of the Westlands at 125 million puts the total numbers of soldiers currently ready to fight at perhaps 1.5 million, which is at the high end of the estimates I've seen regarding total troop strength, and this includes the Aiel.

 

I'm sure that if Elayne were to embark upon a massive conscription campaign she'd be able to raise an army in the hundreds of thousands. So could Saldaea. Whether they'd be much more than trolloc fodder without sufficient time to gather is another matter. A local militia might be able to gather within a few days to deal with a single fist of trollocs on a raid, but a supermassive trolloc army? It's going to be messy for Saldaea.

 

I'm sure Aemon and his men killed a few hundred thousand in battle. Eldrene most likely had a sa'angreal when she dealt with the rest of them.

 

Not true, conscription came in with the French Revolution. Napoleon invaded Russia with 600,000 men.

 

RJ is on the record that Ceamlyn has 300,000 people and Tar Valon 500,000. Egwene calls Tear nearly as big as Caemlyn, and Elayne calls Tanchico bigger. Rand says Cairhien is the about the same size. Lan says Chachin is as big as Tear.

 

Elayne embarked on a massive recruitment drive as soon as she reached Caemlynn, she wants the Queen's Guard to be able to match any ten houses and the average Great House seems to be able to call up 10,000 armsmen, so that's a standing army of 100,000.

 

The militia isn't meant to fight them in the open, but help hold the walls of the fortress city when they retreat there with their family.

[Lacanos]

Also, unless something has changed with the Black Wind, the Shadow will be unable to transport large numbers of Trollocs quickly through the Ways. I don't see any of the interior cities being under immediate serious danger from Trollocs, at least until the Borderlands are destroyed.

When the Black Wind started tracking Rand in TGH, I started suspecting something was up with it. It certainly hasn't prevented tens of thousands from moving at will through the Ways. We had Loial temporarily lock the gate to Manetheran in TSR, and within weeks it was unlocked again and thousands more flooded into the Two Rivers. Machin Shin is apparently no barrier to massing large Shadowspawn armies.

 

 

With the Borderlands, they could probably be overrun any day. I agree that the quote about them leaving enough forces to stop anything short of the Trolloc Wars was probably true to the rulers when they said it, but I don't think they realized that the Last Battle will be at LEAST equal to the trolloc wars, and most likely even larger. They also have forgotten that the Last Battle is coming VERY SOON. So unless Rand goes back to the Borderlanders and reasons with them, then Travel's them back to the Borderlands VERY soon, I can see the Borderlands falling quickly.

That's my impression as well. They weren't really facing the reality of Tarmon Gai'don being imminent when they took their forces away from the Blight. This seems really stupid on their part, seeing as that they know the Dragon has been reborn and that the Shadow could make its opening blows whenever it wants to, not just when it's convenient for the Borderlanders.

 

The gate was unlocked at Manetheren by Slayer, I think he tells Perrin that. It's locked permanently when Loial goes up there and takes both leaves.

 

Yeah, its strange how the Shadow is moving such large numbers, maybe they are sending huge numbers through the Ways and having a fraction come out? I wondor if the Black Wind ever gets full of souls... O.o. <---Pure Speculation.

We're told in TSR that they sent trollocs through in small groups and massed them in that way. The only record of huge numbers of shadowspawn being sent through the ways was in 11 (and they may have been staggered or guarded by one of the forsaken).

[MikeRiley]

We're told in TSR that they sent trollocs through in small groups and massed them in that way. The only record of huge numbers of shadowspawn being sent through the ways was in 11 (and they may have been staggered or guarded by one of the forsaken).

 

Only a few trollocs were sent at first but they upped the pace after Perrin's entrance into the Two Rivers and the Waygate was again unlocked. They put a lot of trollocs into the Two Rivers in the week or so that the Waygate remained open since Slayer learned of Perrin's arrival. Also, it's not a great city but the trollocs completely wiped out Taren Ferry. I believe the Black Wind was held back so the trollocs could pass through safely after this point. It was done in The Great Hunt when Liandrin let on there was a way to deal with it.

 

I think the only reason we haven't seen wholesale slaughter on the Trolloc Wars level is because the trollocs are being held back and amassed in greater numbers for the coming battle. The numbers that will be involved will make the Trolloc Wars look like nothing, but this time there's going to be quite a few channelers involved to help counter it.

[Sentinel78]

Slayer also told Perrin that the Black Wind feasted at that Waygate and untold numbers of Trollocs perished, implying the Shadow gets no special Black-Wind protection.  Then again, he could have been lying.

[Lacanos]

Slayer also told Perrin that the Black Wind feasted at that Waygate and untold numbers of Trollocs perished, implying the Shadow gets no special Black-Wind protection.  Then again, he could have been lying.

We've seen trollocs die from machin shin and dead trollocs inside the ways. The protection comes from having a powerful channeler with them I believe.

[MikeRiley]

Either that or the number of trollocs initially sent to the Two Rivers was small enough that the forsaken simply didn't care. The order to the Black Wind would have come right after the Waygate was unlocked if it was given at all, when the number of trollocs was increased to destroy the Two Rivers.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

for ebou dar, shadow coast has some steddings that may not be blocked up yet

 

as for far madding it could be a very good staging point, the prerequisite being that Shienar falls along with cairhien and aringill. or the toher way  Kandor or saldaea, caemlyn, far madding.

 

 

anyone know why Godan is on the map?

 

If I'm not mistaken, Far Madding is pretty far south. Like REALLY far south. I don't see the Shadow making a special effort to attack a city that poses no immediate threat to them (no warriors, no channelers) just to secure a base. They would have to leave it sooner or later, and its not close enough to any other major city to be more than just a good staging point.

The Highlords built the city has counterweight to Mayne, so I'm guessing it's decent sized but doesn't rival the capital.

 

Wasn't Far Madding the capital of some nation that faded away? I don't think that Tear built Far Madding, since it has been there for quite some time due to the ter'angreal they have there to protect from channelers. Wasn't it built sometime shortly after the Time of Madness because of the rampaging male channelers, or was the ter'angreal moved since then? I remember Cadsuane or Verin or someone saying something like "Their fear must have been graet for them to build such a thing."

[Lacanos]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

for ebou dar, shadow coast has some steddings that may not be blocked up yet

 

as for far madding it could be a very good staging point, the prerequisite being that Shienar falls along with cairhien and aringill. or the toher way  Kandor or saldaea, caemlyn, far madding.

 

 

anyone know why Godan is on the map?

 

If I'm not mistaken, Far Madding is pretty far south. Like REALLY far south. I don't see the Shadow making a special effort to attack a city that poses no immediate threat to them (no warriors, no channelers) just to secure a base. They would have to leave it sooner or later, and its not close enough to any other major city to be more than just a good staging point.

The Highlords built the city has counterweight to Mayne, so I'm guessing it's decent sized but doesn't rival the capital.

 

Wasn't Far Madding the capital of some nation that faded away? I don't think that Tear built Far Madding, since it has been there for quite some time due to the ter'angreal they have there to protect from channelers. Wasn't it built sometime shortly after the Time of Madness because of the rampaging male channelers, or was the ter'angreal moved since then? I remember Cadsuane or Verin or someone saying something like "Their fear must have been graet for them to build such a thing."

It was indeed the capital of Maredo. And the ter'angreal was built in the breaking of the world, indeed

[Charlz Guybon]

I don't see the basis for Far Madding being destroyed at all. I'm fairly certain we don't know of any waygate near there, I may be wrong about that, and everyone know Trollocs can't travel by Traveling so I just don't see how the trollocs could get down there. Same problem with Ebou Dar, except that there were already Trollocs there.

 

for ebou dar, shadow coast has some steddings that may not be blocked up yet

 

as for far madding it could be a very good staging point, the prerequisite being that Shienar falls along with cairhien and aringill. or the toher way  Kandor or saldaea, caemlyn, far madding.

 

 

anyone know why Godan is on the map?

 

If I'm not mistaken, Far Madding is pretty far south. Like REALLY far south. I don't see the Shadow making a special effort to attack a city that poses no immediate threat to them (no warriors, no channelers) just to secure a base. They would have to leave it sooner or later, and its not close enough to any other major city to be more than just a good staging point.

The Highlords built the city has counterweight to Mayne, so I'm guessing it's decent sized but doesn't rival the capital.

 

Wasn't Far Madding the capital of some nation that faded away? I don't think that Tear built Far Madding, since it has been there for quite some time due to the ter'angreal they have there to protect from channelers. Wasn't it built sometime shortly after the Time of Madness because of the rampaging male channelers, or was the ter'angreal moved since then? I remember Cadsuane or Verin or someone saying something like "Their fear must have been graet for them to build such a thing."

I quoted the wrong post, I was referring to the question about Godan.

[farthammer]

Well with the ways the DO is increasingly able to distort the physical world perhaps he might be warping SG or the blight itself complete with trollocs into other areas.

[Charlz Guybon]

The ter'angreal was made in the breaking, but I thought that it wasn't installed  in Far Madding until after Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow went on to become famous false Dragons, (although it didn't stop Guaire Amalasan from taking the city).

 

Am I wrong? ???