Javindhra?

[Luckers]

So, this hasn't been discussed for a while, and my re-read just passed it, so I was wondering if anyone had new thoughts about her.

 

Here is what's wierd.

 

"But sisters do get reports from their eyes-and-ears. We can't stop them learning what happened[the disasters at Dumai's Well's and the Black Tower]. I'm surprised it's taken this long."

 

"That's so," Javindhra added, smoothing her skirts. The angular woman wore no jewelry aside from the Great Serpent ring, and her dress was unadorned, and a red deep enough to appear near black. "Sooner or later, the facts will all come out if we work till our fingers bleed." Her mouth was so tight she seemed to be biting something, yet she sounded almost satisfied. Odd, that. She was Elaida's lapdog.

 

[KoD; Prologue, Embers Falling on Dry Grass]

 

and...

 

"Elaida will not know until it is too late, Javindhra. I hide her secrets-the disaster against the Black Tower, Dumai's Wells-as best I can because she was raised from the Red, but she is the Amyrlin Seat, of all Ajahs and none. That means she is no longer Red, and this [the bonding of Asha'men] is Ajah business, not hers." A dangerous tone entered her voice. And she had not cursed once. That meant she was on the edge of open fury. "Do you disagree with me on this? Do you intend to inform Elaida despite my express wishes?"

 

"No, Highest," Javindhra replied quickly, then buried her face in her cup. Strangely, she seemed to be hiding a smile.

 

[KoD; Prologue, Embers Falling on Dry Grass]

 

Finally, though it may mean nothing, directly after this meeting we have.

 

In the corridor outside, Javindhra muttered something about correspondence and rushed off down the white floor tiles marked with the red Flame of Tar Valon before Pevara could say a word.

 

Now a few key points.

 

Mesaana

 

She's the go to gall for weird behaviour in Aes Sedai, but these oddities don't really fit with her being Mesaana. Why does she seem pleased that she was forced by Tsutama not to tell Elaida? If she'd wanted to not tell Elaida, she'd simply have not told her.

 

Additionally Javindhra's reactions are off. For instance when she learns that Aes Sedai have sworn oaths of fealty to Rand: "Javindhra gasped loudly, her eyes popping". And then she lets Tsutama stare her down: "Tsutama's stare focused on her, and after a moment a flush grew on Javindhra's cheeks. Perhaps as an excuse to break eye contact, she took a long drink of her tea."

 

Mesaana is a weak Forsaken, but she's displayed no fear of any of the Aes Sedai before. And she's not a good enough actress to have been faking--we know this. She simply doesn't have enough control of herself to pull off that kind of subtle deception. Additionally, Javindhra is always described in plain dresses without embroidery. The dress Alviarin catched a glimpse of is silk with intricate embroidery.  

 

Still Mesaana is an option unless I'm forgetting something?

 

She's Not Black

 

At the end of tGS Egwene specifically names the Sitters who Verin identified as Black.

 

the most disturbing discovery on the list were the sisters who were Sitters in either the Tower or among the rebels. Duhara Basaheen. Velina Behar. Sedore Dajenna. Delana Mosalaine, of course, and Talene Minly as well. Meidani had admitted to Egwene in confidence that Talene was the member of the Black Ajah that Saerin and the others had discovered, but she had fled the Tower.

Moria Karentanis.

 

Why Is She Pleased

 

This is the key issue I think. What occurred here is essentially Tsutama forced Javindhra to state (and thus be bound) that she would not reveal this to Elaida. Why would that please her? If she didn't want the woman to know, she needn't have told her. Unless someone is forcing her hand. Note the sudden swift departure to 'correspond' with someone. This way she is bound by the Oath, and cannot speak but through no fault of her own.

 

That's my guess. That Javindhra is under someone's thumb. Not Elaida. We see Elaida's thoughts on Javindhra--and she was already Elaida's pet by then--and not the slightest indication of suspicion. My guess instead is that someone is using Javindhra the way Egwene used Faolain and Theodrin. Placing her firmly in Elaida's camp so she can keep an eye on here.

 

The question is who? Mesaana is a possibility--it's clear she did watch Elaida to some degree outside of Alviarin, but why a non-black? That would surely mean Mesaana is blackmailing her (compulsion wouldn't leave her pleased to be resisting). Why risk it when she could use Katerine or Duhara. Elaida clearly trusts both women.

 

The Ajah Heads are another option, though unlikely--how would they leash a Red? Though then again they would want a Red agent for their plan, so they had reason to be looking.

 

Possibly Cadsuane? She's displayed no particular interest in the Tower, but you never know--and Javindhra's comment of correspondence does sound to involve distance.

 

The least likely is Taim. How he would have a handle on a non-Black Red who hasn't left the Tower in years I do not know, but telling Elaida would stop a plan that was framed to destroy the Black Tower. That would explain her pleasure at being thwarted. She could then tell Taim cleanly that she couldn't stop the endevour and protect her skin.

 

Any other thoughts?

[yoniy0]

One more thought, yes. It might only be that she knew the issue would be presented to Tsutama, and feared the Highest might want to approach Elaida regarding it (which will surely be the end of that endeavor). She might only be trying to manipulate Tsutama into going on with that plan without letting Elaida know about it. The same holds for the first quote - she's secretly happy about something that would cause Elaida (but not the Red, or any other in the Tower, really) great shame.

It all sounds to me like she has a score to settle with Elaida, and she intends to do just that regardless of Elaida's new position. Perhaps something to do with the Vileness (though if it is, why doesn't Tsutama share the feeling? Toveine certainly does)?

[MikeRiley]

In the second quote I'm not sure she was smiling because she was told not to talk to Elaida. I think she was smiling because of what was going on. In the first she seems to want the facts to get out. Whatever reason she has for wanting to bond male channelers, I think that might be all this is.

[perrin51]

Let's not discount simple spite. Elaida has been a distrutful, overwrought, paranoid tyrant lately. More so since Fain infected her. Javindhra may just be enjoying visualising Elaida going down in flames for past transgressions.

[algspkr]

Still Mesaana is an option unless I'm forgetting something?

 

When did we first see Javindhra?  I don't remember seeing her before RJ said we had met Mesaana.

[fikkie77]

Still Mesaana is an option unless I'm forgetting something?

 

When did we first see Javindhra?  I don't remember seeing her before RJ said we had met Mesaana.

We first see Messy after the Tower coup. Javindhra was one of the sisters deposing Siuan.

You know, I find the thought of Javindhra being Messy interesting. We know she didn't retake the vows: as a red sitter, she will be in Caemlin to bond Asha'man.

That is indeed a groups of sisters Egwene forgot in her search of Messy's alter ego: the sisters who sided with the White Tower, who weren't in the Tower during the Purge, but weren't among those who fled between the Seanchan attack and the Purge.

[algspkr]

Still Mesaana is an option unless I'm forgetting something?

 

When did we first see Javindhra?  I don't remember seeing her before RJ said we had met Mesaana.

We first see Messy after the Tower coup. Javindhra was one of the sisters deposing Siuan.

You know, I find the thought of Javindhra being Messy interesting. We know she didn't retake the vows: as a red sitter, she will be in Caemlin to bond Asha'man.

That is indeed a groups of sisters Egwene forgot in her search of Messy's alter ego: the sisters who sided with the White Tower, who weren't in the Tower during the Purge, but weren't among those who fled between the Seanchan attack and the Purge.

 

Those Reds seem to be having the same issues that the rebel emissaries are having.  I would not be surprised if Egwene tests women as they trickle into the tower.  And thanks for the info of Javindhra's first appearance.

[lsm]

That is indeed a groups of sisters Egwene forgot in her search of Messy's alter ego: the sisters who sided with the White Tower, who weren't in the Tower during the Purge, but weren't among those who fled between the Seanchan attack and the Purge.

surely there will be something along the lines of testing any aes sedai that was away that returns to the white tower. i doubt any black ajah will return though at this point

[algspkr]

That is indeed a groups of sisters Egwene forgot in her search of Messy's alter ego: the sisters who sided with the White Tower, who weren't in the Tower during the Purge, but weren't among those who fled between the Seanchan attack and the Purge.

surely there will be something along the lines of testing any aes sedai that was away that returns to the white tower. i doubt any black ajah will return though at this point

 

Those who don't know of the purge will.  If Galina were to escape I am sure that she would return (although I do not see how this would happen).

[Lacanos]

I'd always assumed she was one of the Blacks Verin missed - she did miss some, so we can't rule that possibility out.

[Sharaman]

Javindhra = Messi? Doesn't fit - physical dissimilarities - Alviarin wouldn't have found Messi vaguely familiar when Shaidar stripped her, plus the garment variations. Plus, Brandon's statement about a way to beat the rod wouldn't make sense since she hasn;t been re-tested.

 

Javindhra = Black - Maybe. Verin knew she had missed some, Egwene found a few who weren't on the list and Javindhra is out of the Tower. But the whole laugh/ pleased business doesn't fit either with her being black- why would she be pleased to go out and look for Ashaman to bond, black or otherwise? Also, Verin is less likely to have missed a Sitter - they're prominent and she'd have looked at them harder.

 

Javindhra has some other agenda? If so, what? Beyond being part of the serried rank of AS ticked off by Elaida.

 

Two Red-related bits of info that have never been cleared up that I can recall offhand.

 

One is fairly major - What were the mechanics of Taim's escape? This is truly puzzling - was he freed by the Black/did he bust a shield ala Dumai's Well? The Reds had to be involved in guarding him even if Cad helped with the capture. We know zilch about Taim's escape except that he was apparently left on his own afterwords.

 

The other is the young, nameless sister who was in Caemlyn, Compelled by Rahvin and ran screaming. Javindhra isn't that sister but she might have some tenuous connection since we don't know what if anything, happened to the sister later. She just fades out of the story.

 

Could Javindhra and her unusual behaviour have anything to do with either?

 

 

 

[Dida]

 

She's Not Black

 

At the end of tGS Egwene specifically names the Sitters who Verin identified as Black.

 

the most disturbing discovery on the list were the sisters who were Sitters in either the Tower or among the rebels. Duhara Basaheen. Velina Behar. Sedore Dajenna. Delana Mosalaine, of course, and Talene Minly as well. Meidani had admitted to Egwene in confidence that Talene was the member of the Black Ajah that Saerin and the others had discovered, but she had fled the Tower.

Moria Karentanis.

 

 

 Egwene al'Vere's list of Black Ajah given in tGS book did not include the naming of every single Black Sister. Javindhra was not claimed by Egwene to be innocent at all.

 

There were no Red sisters.  With a start, Egwene remembered that Duhara had left the Tower some weeks before--nobody knew why, but some said it had been on a mission for Elaida.  Perhaps she was about Black Ajah business.  The other two red Sitters, Javindhra and Pevara, had vanished mysteriously.

 

 

Source: The Gathering Storm, book 13, Chapter "To Be Forged Again" - Egwene al'Vere point of view

 

 

 Javindhra Doraille remains one of the most likely sisters to be Black Ajah really of anyone who is unconfirmed solidly as Black.  Pevara on the other hand is not a Black Ajah, as she re-took the three Oaths on the Oath Rod and stated she was not to five other Tower Sisters.

 

 

Separately speaking, Javindhra's character I suspect might tied up in the kidnapping attempt on Elayne in the next book.

 

 

 

 Brandon was purposefully vague on naming any of the sisters which were with Perrin, Rand, Borderlanders, sisters in the Elaida's (Mesaana's, Demandred's) delegation to Rand, and the Red Ajah delegation to the Black Tower in tGS.  

 

 

I'm thinking along the lines of Annoura Larisen, Javindhra, Memara, Coladara (advisor to King Paitar Nachiman of Arafel), Illeisien (who found Queen Tenboia), Demira Eriff, Beldeine Nyram (with Cadsuane now, who bonded Asha'man Karldin), Chisaine Nurbaya, Janine Pavlara, Innina Darenhold, Vayelle Kamsa, Kiruna Nachiman, Berenicia Morsad, Marith Riven, Melare, Desala, Jezrail, Barasine et la.  All these Aes Sedai likely will be mentioned in the next two books.  

 

 

 For example, you might suspect Verin Sedai only missed three Aes Sedai in total, in her list of Black Ajah which Egwene al'Vere now possesses?  Well, look at what Verin thought:

 

 

They still struggled to justify taking the path fate had pushed them down, but Verin already had reasons for the path she followed, and purpose. She also had a list in her pouch, ready to hand to Sorilea when they were alone. No need to let the others know. Some of the captives she had never met, but she thought that for most women, that list summed up the weaknesses Sorilea was seeking. Life was going to grow much more difficult for the women in black. And her own efforts would be aided no end, with luck.

 

 

Source: The Path of Daggers, book 8, Chapter Prologue "Deceptive Appearances" - Verin Sedai point of view in Cairhien while questioning the Tower Embassey to Rand.

 

 Who has Verin not met of these captive Tower sisters in Cairhien previously?  Did Verin have time to learn if any of the unknowns were Black Ajah or not?

 

 

 

 

 

Melare in particular has a decent chance of being Mesaana's alter-ego, besides the commonly mentioned pick of Danelle on the various forum boards.  Melare went to the Black Tower in KoD book, no less too.  ;D  That might explain why Egwene al'Vere never was able to find Mesaana after swearing the remaining sisters to the Oath Rod.  Likewise, Alviarin's difficulty in figuring out who Mesaana is too, in KoD book.  Alviarin does want to kill Mesaana, and Egwene wants to capture and kill Mesaana as well.

 

 Recall that Sheriam lost a finger to who is believed to be Mesaana in tGS book. Recall that Melare literally captured Leane at Southharbor in KoD.  Melare would know Leane had no Dreamweaver in her possession. Recall that Melare knew who Egwene al'Vere, yet Egwene specifically mentions not recognizing or knowing who Melare is (KoD, Prologue).  How is Melare's facial appearance described by Egwene?

 

 

The newcomer's thick black eyebrows raised over bright blue eyes at the sight of Egwene, and she planted her fists on ample hips, letting her shawl slide to her elbows.  Egwene did not think she had ever seen the woman before, but apparently, the reverse was not true.  "Why that's the al'Vere girl. They sent her to Northharbor?

 

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Egwene al'Vere point of view, with Katerine, Barasine, and Melare.

 

There are ample eyebrow references to Melare, "The eyebrows, like dark caterpillars, were very expressive." 

 

  Like Danelle, Melare has "big blue eyes" as Mesaana is described as having (CoT, Ch.21)(KoD, Ch.3).

 

[Sharaman]

@Dida, we're all agreed that Javindhra may be black. Now tell us why she was happy and concealing it at the meeting with Tsutsama.

[Durinax]

@Dida, we're all agreed that Javindhra may be black. Now tell us why she was happy and concealing it at the meeting with Tsutsama.

she finally had her period after several days of uncertainty?

[JakeBarnes]

 

Melare in particular has a decent chance of being Mesaana's alter-ego, besides the commonly mentioned pick of Danelle on the various forum boards.  Melare went to the Black Tower in KoD book, no less too.  ;D  That might explain why Egwene al'Vere never was able to find Mesaana after swearing the remaining sisters to the Oath Rod.  Likewise, Alviarin's difficulty in figuring out who Mesaana is too, in KoD book.  Alviarin does want to kill Mesaana, and Egwene wants to capture and kill Mesaana as well.

 

 Recall that Sheriam lost a finger to who is believed to be Mesaana in tGS book. Recall that Melare literally captured Leane at Southharbor in KoD.  Melare would know Leane had no Dreamweaver in her possession. Recall that Melare knew who Egwene al'Vere, yet Egwene specifically mentions not recognizing or knowing who Melare is (KoD, Prologue).  How is Melare's facial appearance described by Egwene?

 

 

The newcomer's thick black eyebrows raised over bright blue eyes at the sight of Egwene, and she planted her fists on ample hips, letting her shawl slide to her elbows.  Egwene did not think she had ever seen the woman before, but apparently, the reverse was not true.  "Why that's the al'Vere girl. They sent her to Northharbor?

 

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Egwene al'Vere point of view, with Katerine, Barasine, and Melare.

 

There are ample eyebrow references to Melare, "The eyebrows, like dark caterpillars, were very expressive."  

 

 Like Danelle, Melare has "big blue eyes" as Mesaana is described as having (CoT, Ch.21)(KoD, Ch.3).

 

 

1.  This is totally off topic.  

2.  

RJ has had a couple of things to say on the matter. He told "Tallis" at the Harvard Coop signing [January 18, 2003] that "there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before COT. He basically said that he'd full-out reveal her in upcoming books, though: '...and if you still don't know, well, you'll find out later.'"

 

Yeah, but we want to know now, don't we? When asked if we have actually seen Mesaana's alter ego in the Tower, RJ said, yes, we have [Robert Mee, Bailey's Crossroads signing, VA, January 23, 2003].

 

So...no.  Melare is NOT a candidate for Mesaana.

[Crael123]

@Dida, we're all agreed that Javindhra may be black. Now tell us why she was happy and concealing it at the meeting with Tsutsama.

she finally had her period after several days of uncertainty?

 

lol

[Dida]

@Dida, we're all agreed that Javindhra may be black. Now tell us why she was happy and concealing it at the meeting with Tsutsama.

 

  Well almost everyone agreed Javindhra is of Black Ajah, as Luckers seems to have disagreed to that claim.

 

  I believe a decent answer is to be found within the Prologue of KoD itself, as to why Javindhra was 'hiding a smile' from Pevara's point of view.

 

"I heard disturbing rumors this morning about the battle at Dumai's Wells," she said abruptly. "Bloody disturbing."  She had the habits now of long silences, no small talk, and sudden, unexpected statements.  Exile had coarsened her language, too.  The isolated farm she had been confined to must have been...vivid.  "Including that three of the dead sisters were from our Ajah.  Mother's milk in a cup!" All delivered in the most even tones.  But her eyes stabbed at them accusingly.

 

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Pevara point of view, with the Red Ajah's Highest Tsutama, and Sitter Javindhra

 

 

  The Highest Tsutama, is looking for who broke her direct orders to keep quiet about the event at Dumai's Wells about the Red Ajah, starting with one who knew of the event--Katerine. Yes, Sitters too--Pevara, Javindhra. 

 

  Yet Pevara of all people voices doubt that Katerine would violate Tsutama's command. Sigh.  ::)

 

"I can't see why Katerine would disobey your orders to keep her knowledge to herself, and you cannot believe Tarna is likely to put discredit on Elaida."  Not publicly, at any rate.  Tarna guarded her feelings on Elaida as carefully as a cat guarded a mousehole. "But sisters do get reports from their eyes-and-ears.  We can't stop them learning what happened.  I'm surprised it's taken this long."

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Pevara point of view, with the Red Ajah's Highest Tsutama, and Sitter Javindhra

 

  In short, Pevara does Javindhra's work for her of creating enough reasonable doubt in Tsutama's that Katerine might not be a Black Ajah.  Yes, Tsutama is not blind that the Black Ajah exists I think.  But look at Javindhra's result to Pevara's comments:

 

 

"That's so,"  Javindhra added, smoothing her skirts.  The angular woman wore no jewelry aside from the Great Serpent ring, and her dress was unadorned, and a red deep enough to appear near black.  "Sooner or later, the facts will all come out if we work till our fingers bleed."  Her mouth was so tight she seemed to be biting something, yet she sounded almost satisfied.  Odd, that.  She was Elaida's lapdog.

 

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Pevara point of view, with the Red Ajah's Highest Tsutama, and Sitter Javindhra

 

  Pevara's notices the tension in Javindhra's actions, the smoothing of her skirts, and her tight mouth biting something. And I believe Pevara also catches the satisfaction of Javindhra's muddying the trail into Katerine's actions of spread the gossip of Dumai's Wells around in violation of an order by Tsutama.

 

  Pevara though does not suspect that Javindhra's real loyally lies with the Black Ajah.  Pevara does not yet know that Elaida is simply a pawn of Alviarin, the Black Ajah and Mesaana's. 

 

  However, Javindhra does not yet know whether or not at this point if the Highest Tsutamam will go to Elaida in secret and explain that someone violated her direct order.  Javindhra does not know how close Tsutama is to Elaida currently.  Do they trust one another or not?

 

 

"Elaida will never allow it," she (Javindhra)muttered.

 

  Tsutama's glittering eyes caught her gaze and held it.  The bony woman swallowed audibly.

 

  "Elaida will not know until it is too late, Javindhra.  I hide her secrets--the disaster against the Black Tower, Dumai's Wells--as best I can because she was raised from the Red, but she is the Amyrlin Seat, and of all Ajahs and none.  That means she is no longer Red, and this is Ajah business, not hers."  A dangerous tone entered her voice.  And she had not cursed once.  That meant she was on the edge of open fury. "Do you disagree with me on this? Do you intend to inform Elaida despite my express wishes?"

 

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Pevara point of view, with the Red Ajah's Highest Tsutama, and Sitter Javindhra

 

  It is plain that Tsutama does not trust Elaida completely, nor that Tsutama would go to Elaida with her implied suspicion that Katerine violated her direct orders.

 

Javindhra is 'hiding a smile' because Katerine is going to remain hidden as a B.A., as Tsutama is not going to connect the dots in a future meeting with Elaida on the topic of the Black Ajah.  The Tower, the Red Ajah Head, and Elaida all remain fractured and at odds with each other.  Javindhra now knows that Katerine's actions will not expose the Black Ajah.

 

 

In the corridor outside, Javindhra muttered something about correspondence and rushed off down the white floor tiles marked with the red Flame of Tar Valon before Pevara could say a word.

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling On Dry Grass" - Pevara point of view, with the Red Ajah's Highest Tsutama, and Sitter Javindhra

 

  Javindhra's need to immediate rush off to see her correspondence, is I suspect another good reason to place her in the Black Ajah catergory of unconfirmed but likely B.A.'s.

[Lacanos]

 

 

 

  In short, Pevara does Javindhra's work for her of creating enough reasonable doubt in Tsutama's that Katerine might not be a Black Ajah.   Yes, Tsutama is not blind that the Black Ajah exists I think.  But look at Javindhra's result to Pevara's comments:

 

 

Nah, you're overlooking the obvious. The Black were ordered by Alviarin to spread the news of DW and the BT. It's just getting that news out.

[Luckers]

I suppose it is possible that Javindhra is one of Black's Verin missed, but even so that doesn't answer this issue. Why would a Black be pleased to be forced not to tell Elaida of this plan? If she didn't want her informed than she needn't inform her. Although if she were Black it might be that it is Mesaana that she was pleased to forestall--if she knew Mesaana would want this stopped she can now say that she cannot stop it without being shown to have lied to Tsutama.

 

I still think it's unlikely she's Black. Nothing in this suggests Black being the answer, and Verin missed very few Blacks. Still, even if she is it still raises the question, why would she be pleased about being forced not to tell Elaida? What does a Red want out of bonding men who can channel? If she were Black, and Mesaana is the cause for her pleasure, why is she attempting to oppose her? And if she's not Black, why is she opposing Elaida when she's apparently the woman's lap dog?

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 12:30:01 AM

 

She's Not Black

 

At the end of tGS Egwene specifically names the Sitters who Verin identified as Black.

 

the most disturbing discovery on the list were the sisters who were Sitters in either the Tower or among the rebels. Duhara Basaheen. Velina Behar. Sedore Dajenna. Delana Mosalaine, of course, and Talene Minly as well. Meidani had admitted to Egwene in confidence that Talene was the member of the Black Ajah that Saerin and the others had discovered, but she had fled the Tower. Moria Karentanis.

 

 

  Egwene al'Vere's list of Black Ajah given in tGS book did not include the naming of every single Black Sister. Javindhra was not claimed by Egwene to be innocent at all.

 

No Dida, but she does name every Black Sitter on that list, which did exclude Javindhra.

 

 

[Lacanos]

I suppose it is possible that Javindhra is one of Black's Verin missed, but even so that doesn't answer this issue. Why would a Black be pleased to be forced not to tell Elaida of this plan? If she didn't want her informed than she needn't inform her. Although if she were Black it might be that it is Mesaana that she was pleased to forestall--if she knew Mesaana would want this stopped she can now say that she cannot stop it without being shown to have lied to Tsutama.

Why would she want to not tell Elaida? Create divides in the tower, cause tension between Elaida and the reds, "break" the tower further.

 

I still think it's unlikely she's Black. Nothing in this suggests Black being the answer, and Verin missed very few Blacks. Still, even if she is it still raises the question, why would she be pleased about being forced not to tell Elaida? What does a Red want out of bonding men who can channel? If she were Black, and Mesaana is the cause for her pleasure, why is she attempting to oppose her? And if she's not Black, why is she opposing Elaida when she's apparently the woman's lap dog?

There's lots to suggest she is black. She's satisfied that the news of DW and BT is spreading, which the Blacks have been ordered to do.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 12:30:01 AM

 

She's Not Black

 

At the end of tGS Egwene specifically names the Sitters who Verin identified as Black.

 

the most disturbing discovery on the list were the sisters who were Sitters in either the Tower or among the rebels. Duhara Basaheen. Velina Behar. Sedore Dajenna. Delana Mosalaine, of course, and Talene Minly as well. Meidani had admitted to Egwene in confidence that Talene was the member of the Black Ajah that Saerin and the others had discovered, but she had fled the Tower. Moria Karentanis.

 

 

  Egwene al'Vere's list of Black Ajah given in tGS book did not include the naming of every single Black Sister. Javindhra was not claimed by Egwene to be innocent at all.

 

No Dida, but she does name every Black Sitter on that list, which did exclude Javindhra.

 

 

The list isn't 100% accurate. I think the point Dida's trying to make is that Egwene hasn't confirmed she's innocent, but just hasn't confirmed she's guilty either.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 10:53:57 PM

I suppose it is possible that Javindhra is one of Black's Verin missed, but even so that doesn't answer this issue. Why would a Black be pleased to be forced not to tell Elaida of this plan? If she didn't want her informed than she needn't inform her. Although if she were Black it might be that it is Mesaana that she was pleased to forestall--if she knew Mesaana would want this stopped she can now say that she cannot stop it without being shown to have lied to Tsutama.

 

 

Why would she want to not tell Elaida? Create divides in the tower, cause tension between Elaida and the reds, "break" the tower further.

 

So simply don't tell her. Why be pleased to have been forced not to tell her?

 

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I still think it's unlikely she's Black. Nothing in this suggests Black being the answer, and Verin missed very few Blacks. Still, even if she is it still raises the question, why would she be pleased about being forced not to tell Elaida? What does a Red want out of bonding men who can channel? If she were Black, and Mesaana is the cause for her pleasure, why is she attempting to oppose her? And if she's not Black, why is she opposing Elaida when she's apparently the woman's lap dog?

 

There's lots to suggest she is black. She's satisfied that the news of DW and BT is spreading, which the Blacks have been ordered to do.

 

That's not 'lots', and it doesn't even point singularily at her being Black. It could simply mean she's pleased Elaida is failing. That's the point here--her being Black is not an answer to these oddities.

 

 

[Lacanos]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 10:53:57 PM

I suppose it is possible that Javindhra is one of Black's Verin missed, but even so that doesn't answer this issue. Why would a Black be pleased to be forced not to tell Elaida of this plan? If she didn't want her informed than she needn't inform her. Although if she were Black it might be that it is Mesaana that she was pleased to forestall--if she knew Mesaana would want this stopped she can now say that she cannot stop it without being shown to have lied to Tsutama.

 

 

Why would she want to not tell Elaida? Create divides in the tower, cause tension between Elaida and the reds, "break" the tower further.

 

So simply don't tell her. Why be pleased to have been forced not to tell her?

That's just a simple display of tension between the two which she'd be pleased to see

 

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I still think it's unlikely she's Black. Nothing in this suggests Black being the answer, and Verin missed very few Blacks. Still, even if she is it still raises the question, why would she be pleased about being forced not to tell Elaida? What does a Red want out of bonding men who can channel? If she were Black, and Mesaana is the cause for her pleasure, why is she attempting to oppose her? And if she's not Black, why is she opposing Elaida when she's apparently the woman's lap dog?

 

There's lots to suggest she is black. She's satisfied that the news of DW and BT is spreading, which the Blacks have been ordered to do.

 

That's not 'lots', and it doesn't even point singularily at her being Black. It could simply mean she's pleased Elaida is failing. That's the point here--her being Black is not an answer to these oddities.

 

 

Yet if we take it as true that she was under Elaida's thumb, or at least one of her supporters openly, then her being Black is a good explanation

[yoniy0]

Luckers, I think Dida's point might have been that it's not being forbidden to approach Elaida that's making Javindhra smile, it's finding out that Tsutama isn't in close quarters with the woman. That definitely sounds plausible.

 

I like this more and more. Yeah, being one of Katerine's Heart does make sense. But it's not the only possible explanation, by any means.

[Sharaman]

I'd go with Luckers on this as I did in my original post. Javindhra may/ may not be black. But whether she is, or not, it still doesn't explain her mood shift.

 

Who is she informing anyhow, assuming that her mutter about correspondence isn't misdirection? If she's BA, she's hardly going to say "Well I'm off to write a letter" when she's about to inform the BA.

 

[Paerish Swar]

This may have nothing to do with anything, but I found it interesting.

 

Just a few pages after this scene, Pevara meets up with Yukiri in the hallway.  Yukiri mentions that they had received correspondence from Akoure Vayet about what had happened at the Black Tower, corroborating the story that Pevara had learned of from Toveine.

 

Yukiri mentions that only the Sitters and the Head of her Ajah knew of the message, and that they had decided to keep silent, but also that Evanellein, specifically, was openly "for pulling Elaida down."

 

Evanellein was the Sitter that Egwene noticed was missing in the meeting of the Hall who wasn't on Verin's list and who was still in the Tower right after the Raid.  Egwene thinks that she is likely to be a Black that Verin missed.  I think that's a good assessment.

 

If Evanellein is Black why would she openly advocate for deposing Elaida, the BA's/Mesaana's puppet and source of much of the chaos in the Tower, unless she as BA had already received some kind of order about it?

 

So what might that have to do with anything?

 

Let's take another look at Javindhra's words:

 

"But sisters do get reports from their eyes-and-ears. We can't stop them learning what happened[the disasters at Dumai's Well's and the Black Tower]. I'm surprised it's taken this long."

 

"That's so," Javindhra added, smoothing her skirts. The angular woman wore no jewelry aside from the Great Serpent ring, and her dress was unadorned, and a red deep enough to appear near black. "Sooner or later, the facts will all come out if we work till our fingers bleed." Her mouth was so tight she seemed to be biting something, yet she sounded almost satisfied. Odd, that. She was Elaida's lapdog.

 

[KoD; Prologue, Embers Falling on Dry Grass]

 

That sentence can be taken two ways.  It could mean, "sooner or later, the facts will all come out even if we work till our fingers bleed," or "sooner or later, the facts will all come out as long as we continue to work till our fingers bleed."

 

She could be meaning that she doesn't want the facts to come out but is resigned to the fact that they eventually will, or she could be saying that she absolutely does want the facts to come out and she is doing her best to make sure that they do.

 

So maybe the sound of satisfaction in that statement is because she thinks she's being too smart by half about how she's wording the statement and handling the Highest.

 

As for the next quote:

 

"Elaida will not know until it is too late, Javindhra. I hide her secrets-the disaster against the Black Tower, Dumai's Wells-as best I can because she was raised from the Red, but she is the Amyrlin Seat, of all Ajahs and none. That means she is no longer Red, and this [the bonding of Asha'men] is Ajah business, not hers." A dangerous tone entered her voice. And she had not cursed once. That meant she was on the edge of open fury. "Do you disagree with me on this? Do you intend to inform Elaida despite my express wishes?"

 

"No, Highest," Javindhra replied quickly, then buried her face in her cup. Strangely, she seemed to be hiding a smile.

 

[KoD; Prologue, Embers Falling on Dry Grass]

 

Here's another instance where she could be being a little self-congratulatory.  The question was, "do you intend to inform Elaida despite my express wishes?"  Javindhra gets to say outright, "no."  But maybe she has every intention of informing others.

 

Well, here's the last quote:

 

In the corridor outside, Javindhra muttered something about correspondence and rushed off down the white floor tiles marked with the red Flame of Tar Valon before Pevara could say a word.

 

Earlier, I underlined where Javindhra uses the phrase "till our fingers bleed."

 

Perhaps that was an allusion to some written correspondences she has been making and plans to continue making.  Some correspondence that she "rushed off" to go do.

 

So, to tie this back to Evanellein . . .

 

if the Blacks want this information to leak out and be used against Elaida, which if we accept Evanellein as BA is a possibility, Javindhra's actions might be consistent with that goal.  And she might be pleased about how the conversation played out because, like Verin admitted that she was in a bit of a bind when she was given conflicting orders from the Supreme Council and Siuan, Javindhra is confident that she's not going to have any obstacles keeping her from following through with her orders from the Council or revealing herself to Tsutama.

 

But . . .

 

because it looks like she may have needed to be oblique with her language, biting her lip/tongue, and answering Tsutama a little too quickly with a direct answer (and perhaps relying on written messages instead of talking about things), it could be argued that she is just still bound by the First Oath.

 

She could, then, just be excited that she wasn't forbidden to keep working against Elaida out of spite, and she was happy to be able to get out from under her thumb.

 

I understand that my ideas about her behavior are kind of simplistic - that she was just generally pleased or relieved about how the conversation was developing.  It's not very satisfying, is it?

 

Well I don't know which way it is, or even if I'm just completely off base, but does anybody else think there might be a connection between Evanellein's attitude and statement regarding the Black Tower debacle and Elaida, and Javindhra's strange behavior in regards to the same information?