A clue to Taim

[Sharaman]

The taint was hit-and-miss. It depended on the specifics of how much saidin is being channelled, how often, and also on the physiology of the channeler. Some people used to go mad quickly, others don't.

 

Logain for example, is pretty much the same age as Taim and he has been channeling, like Taim, for a long time without overt signs of lunacy (even the two AS bonded to him haven't thought he was off). We've seen no signs that Logain is a DF.

 

It is possible that if Taim wasn't using huge quantities of OP on a regular basis that he simply hadn't gone mad. His "non-explanation" (I don't know why I haven't gone mad) could be true.

So lack of overt lunacy (assuming he is sane and not just good at concealing insanity) is not proof of protection by GLoD even if it's a strong possibility.

 

Another possibility is that he's a reborn dead Chosen from the AoL (somebody who wasn't trapped in SG) and the taint has done what Semi said (quoting Graendal) it would do to Rand. It pulled down barriers in Taim's head and gave Taim the memories of his old AoL life, when he was sworn to GLoD. Unlike LTT, if the earlier Taim personality wasn't nuts, Taim might also be more or less sane. 

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

I wasn't actually suggesting that Taim was a good guy. Just throwing out the main possible scenarios. So we apparently agree that Taim is at least a new Dreadlord and that him giving the Seal to Rand was a stupid move no matter how you look at it. But..To me it's stupid because I feel they should have just broken the Seal. But you think they should have just held on to it?

 

If we know the end result and we know what they're trying to do to achieve that result;We know that a lot of what they're doing isn't helping them get to that result. So I don't think it's so unreasonable to think that Ishy and the DO have made some plain stupid moves. Just as the light has.

[Lacanos]

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

 

How would breaking the Seals and completely releasing the DO be considered a 'marginal victory'?  ???

 

Simple. In the long-run (i.e about 2 years at most), all the seals will have been broken by the DO anyway. Therefore, they might think it worth forgoing breaking 1 seal in the short run to get someone close to Rand.

Heck, they might even have given him that seal to see if they can use it to find out where the others were being stored - seeing Bashere looking after it for Rand in this case.

[Ashaman Kovan]

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

 

How would breaking the Seals and completely releasing the DO be considered a 'marginal victory'?  ???

 

Simple. In the long-run (i.e about 2 years at most), all the seals will have been broken by the DO anyway. Therefore, they might think it worth forgoing breaking 1 seal in the short run to get someone close to Rand.

Heck, they might even have given him that seal to see if they can use it to find out where the others were being stored - seeing Bashere looking after it for Rand in this case.

 

So give Rand another two years to figure out what he has to do, unite the nations and gain a truce with Seanchan? Or they could have put all their efforts towards finding if not all the seals at least most of them. Consolidated their power, waited for the time when Rand shows himself to be the Dragon Reborn and went after him all at once. They wouldn't even have had to wait for him to proclaim himself really. But that doesn't make for a good story.

[Sharaman]

GLoD and Ishamel have had 3,000 years to think about the mechanics of the situation so, it would be reasonable to assume that their game-plan has some logic to it.

It boils down to which side needs to play for time more.

 

If GLoD can, left to Himself, eventually break the seals, enlarge the Bore and bust out, he should play the waiting game and not provoke TG, etc. However, judging by AoL it could take centuries. Mierin & Beidomon made the Bore a 100 years or so before the war started and around 110 years before the seals were put in place.

 

On the side of the Light, Rand would obviously like to reseal GLoD but he doesn't have the logistics in place to meet the Shadow, force his way to Shayol Ghul and do whatever he needs to do. (He also hasn't yet solved Fel's riddle). So he needs some time as well.

 

One explanation one can find for the Shadow provoking a crisis is that GloD and Moridin reckon that, left to himself, Rand can get his act together and solve the riddle before GLoD can break jail. In that scenario, the Shadow needs to take care of Rand even before GLoD is freed. Hence all the meddling with Chosen wandering around. 

 

Another explanation is that Rand could, in some way, actually accelerate GLoD's bid for freedom.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Like Sharaman said, there are other ways to garner trust. Any seal in the possession of a forsaken (reborn or not) would almost immediately be broken. It is their goal to set the DO free after all. They think they're going to rule the world in immortality once he is free. They aren't going to hand it over to the one person who has a chance at permanently re-sealing him.

 

I think the Shadows intentions with the Seals changed, around the time when Herid Fel died.

 

Notice that the attempt to steal the Seals from Bashere wasnt until after Herid Fel died. I think he found out some things too close to the Shadows interest-how they found out I dont know, but he was about to figure out something important about the Dark Ones prison. I think the Shadow wanted the Seals because the prison is flawed and the only way to rebuild is to break all the Seals and if any survived until Rands big moment, and the Shadow could keep Rand from breaking at least one, then his attempt to remake the prison might not work right, because of the seal(s) that he couldnt break.

 

I think at first, it was "what the hell, theyre breaking anyway, he might as well have one to give him something to worry about." (nice move Moridin  ;D ) Then, Herid Fel says "have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild." The Shadow think "Damn! He isnt with us, yet he plans to break the Seals, and if he wants to do that, he's got a plan. And its not likely to be our plan."

 

P.S.

 

I reckon Bashere might be involved in Taims unmasking as Moridin. "If he turns against you, or dies... ... the one person that has a chance of spotting Taims altered appearance wont or cant tell you."

 

Yeah but how much time passed from when Fel was killed to when Taim shows up and gives Rand the Seal? stupid moment. Why have just been holing on to it that whole time? The Shadow didn't know Rand was going to proclaim amnesty for men who could channel. Which is the whole reason Taim showed up in the first place. Without the amnesty who knows what he would be doing now.

 

Im not saying the Shadow picked Taims identity for Ishamael specifically to go to Rand with.

 

Im saying Mazrim Taim is a perfect identity for Ishamael to usurp from the word go because he is a known channeler, and that would give Ishamael a certain level of freedom in his disguise. For example, if he had, say, taken Ingtars body, Ishamael-come-Ingtar would have to keep his channeling quiet lest Ingtars associates find out. "Since when could Ingtar channel?" That problem wouldnt exist with Mazrim Taim.

 

Im not saying Ishamael became Taim and instantly went to Rand. Im saying Ishamael stole Taims identity, and when Rand announced the amnesty, Mazridin thinks "Oh my, how on earth is this happening? I take the identity of a known channeler, and shortly after the Dragon says he wants channelers. This is just too good to pass up. One might almost think this is some odd Ta'veren twist. Gotta ride this one out."

 

I'm not trying to support the Moridin=Taim theory here, I'm in the Taim is Taim is Taim is no one else but Taim camp myself. But Taim shows up and gives the Seal to Rand at the beginning of LoC, and Fel dies at the end of LoC.

 

You know, I didnt notice that one. Good spot. Im starting a reread of LoC this week, one thing Im looking for when it comes is how the hell Ishamael knows what Fel is on with. This time I'll be imagining Taim is Ishamael, I bet it clears a lot up.

 

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

 

How would breaking the Seals and completely releasing the DO be considered a 'marginal victory'?  ???

 

The Wheel will ensure that the solution is there as it has done all this time. If the Dark One breaks free, Lews Therin or Rand or whatever the next one is called will always be ready by that time, even if it means another Taint. The Dragon/Champion will always be there to stop the Dark One unless the Dragon turns Dark. Rand almost gave the Shadow victory in VoG I reckon, he was so close to Ishamaels frame of mind that he almost willingly destroyed the Pattern, until Lewis reminded him about love and that Ilyena might have been reborn as well.

 

Another explanation is that Rand could, in some way, actually accelerate GLoD's bid for freedom

 

I think Rand is the Dark Ones only bid for freedom. Their greatest chance so far was VoG, and even that only came about because Rand began acting like Ishamael due to their connection.

[Sharaman]

@Drekka Mort, I am confused by the way you've stated your theory

1) Do you mean Ishamel's soul stole Taim's body (possibly after Taim died of unnatural causes) and the real Mazrim Taim (who is now shelved) looked like Moridin while the chap running the BT is some random bloke? That is, there are two individuals but neither is actually Taim though the one we know as Moridin, originally was?

2) Do you mean Taim's actual body is Moridin and Ishamel's soul stole the body and then set up a mask of mirror body that looks like the chap who runs the BT and therefore Taim =Moridin = Taim. One individual, two ids. 

3) Do you mean Taim never existed and Ishamel just set up the ID sometime so as to pretend to be a false dragon?

 

[FarShainMael]

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

 

How would breaking the Seals and completely releasing the DO be considered a 'marginal victory'?  ???

 

Simple. In the long-run (i.e about 2 years at most), all the seals will have been broken by the DO anyway. Therefore, they might think it worth forgoing breaking 1 seal in the short run to get someone close to Rand.

Heck, they might even have given him that seal to see if they can use it to find out where the others were being stored - seeing Bashere looking after it for Rand in this case.

 

A thought.. Are we sure that the seal Taim gave Rand was genuine?

 

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka Mort, I am confused by the way you've stated your theory

2) Do you mean Taim's actual body is Moridin and Ishamel's soul stole the body and then set up a mask of mirror body that looks like the chap who runs the BT and therefore Taim =Moridin = Taim. One individual, two ids.  

 

This one. The face of the Taim Rand sees is an altered version. Good job on Ishamaels part as well, otherwise Rand would have figured this all out as soon as he saw Moridins face clearly in the visions.

 

Im wondering if the blurry face Rand saw when he channeled the True Power might have been Moridins altered disguise. If Rand channels it again and sees the face clearly, he might discover that somehow hes also connected to "Taim." Although Rand would probably think "How did I get connected to him?" instead of "Theyre the same dude!"

[Sharaman]

@Drekka

It's not only a question of the face though there are issues there as well.

Blue eyes versus black eyes and Moridin looks a lot younger than Taim.

Maybe Bashere and the other Saldeans wouldn't have noticed/ known what colour of eyes Taim had.

 

But how do you reconcile other physical differences - height, reach, torso length?

Moridin is markedly taller than Taim.

Rand has held hands with both of them. Several others have also touched Taim (Saldeans, Flynn,). So their respective apparent reach is the same as their real reach, and Taim's torso length is what it seems to be.

 

 

[JakeBarnes]

Rand has held hands with both of them.

 

I seriously LOL'd @ that

[Sharaman]

Well, RJ said man-love was no big deal in WoTland!

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka

It's not only a question of the face though there are issues there as well.

Blue eyes versus black eyes and Moridin looks a lot younger than Taim.

Maybe Bashere and the other Saldeans wouldn't have noticed/ known what colour of eyes Taim had.

 

But how do you reconcile other physical differences - height, reach, torso length?

Moridin is markedly taller than Taim.

Rand has held hands with both of them. Several others have also touched Taim (Saldeans, Flynn,). So their respective apparent reach is the same as their real reach, and Taim's torso length is what it seems to be.

 

 

 

I said in an earlier post I reckon actual shapechange is possible with the True Power. The fact that Rand has held hands with both means nothing because "Taims" hand was physical still, not an Mask of Mirrors image. Height, reach torso length, slightly changed in order to create less resemblance between the guise and the real thing.

 

The fact that Moridin changes his public Taim face is an effort to stop Taims identity from interfering with his role as Chosen and Nae'blis when dealing with the likes of the Ashaman. By appearing as Taim AND Moridin, he can speak to them with two seperate important voices. A very clever tactic for manipulation. He never goes to the Black Tower with Taims natural body appearance because theres the chance that Ashaman loyal to Rand or Logain might spot the differences between the "True Power-altered-M'Hael-Taim" face and the "Mazrim-Taim-face-that-is-Moridin-as-Nae'blis" face.

[Sharaman]

Do you have reasons to believe that shape-change with TOP is possible?

I can't remember any such hint.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Worms in the Blight can transform, human and animal can be merged to make Trollocs, Slayer can enter T'A'R in the flesh and change into someone else. All are connected to the Dark One or True Power, which corrupts and alters. Plus, the One Power itself shows something that touches upon shapechanging, look at Siuan before and after being stilled. People who had worked closely with her for years didnt recognise her because of the lack of the ageless wuality, which is a side effect of being bound by the Oath Rod. Aaaaand in T'A'R when Rand and Rahvin fought there in the flesh Rahvin tried changing Rand into an animal or some such.

 

There are plenty of hints for shapechanging. The True Power has been shown to alter things of the Pattern as often as corrupt yet still have some areas of crossing over with what can and cant be done. Like, Travelling for example. Rand describes it as boring a hole through the Pattern. But when Ishamael/Moridin Travel they seemed to fade out IIRC as if they might be stepping outside the Pattern, which would be understandable as the source of the True Power is not of the Pattern. Shapechanging with the True Power fits well with the altering of things of the Pattern, if I am right on this I would assume it would have similar restrictions to a Mask of Mirrors-ie the more you change, the harder-but the True Power version would atually change the features, and so would survive holding someones hand and whatnot. If Moridin is Taim, with his features slightly changed with the True Power... if he had to maintain it by holding the True Power, as a Mask of Mirrors needs maintaining with the One Power I think, then it would explain why Moridin has the sa'a already.

[Lacanos]

Worms in the Blight can transform, human and animal can be merged to make Trollocs, Slayer can enter T'A'R in the flesh and change into someone else. All are connected to the Dark One or True Power, which corrupts and alters. Plus, the One Power itself shows something that touches upon shapechanging, look at Siuan before and after being stilled. People who had worked closely with her for years didnt recognise her because of the lack of the ageless wuality, which is a side effect of being bound by the Oath Rod. Aaaaand in T'A'R when Rand and Rahvin fought there in the flesh Rahvin tried changing Rand into an animal or some such.

Worms can transform. And caterpillars become moths/butterflies, they're based on the same principle.

Human and animal can be merged to make constructs, just as the Nym were constructs, back before the TP existed. It's more assembling a body from spare parts.

Slayer is a body merge thing, two bodies and minds in one, albeit connected to the DO, yet (even though I don't buy it), supports the body-swap theory, not this. It's a thing of TAR that he can change form anyway, just as they try to change Rand's form when he enters TAR in the flesh.

The One Power does NOT shapechange even when removed. It keeps the same body form, just changes facial appearance somewhat.

There is no evidence for the TP doing what you say, those are not supporting evidence. You're clutching at straws.

 

There are plenty of hints for shapechanging. The True Power has been shown to alter things of the Pattern as often as corrupt yet still have some areas of crossing over with what can and cant be done. Like, Travelling for example. Rand describes it as boring a hole through the Pattern. But when Ishamael/Moridin Travel they seemed to fade out IIRC as if they might be stepping outside the Pattern, which would be understandable as the source of the True Power is not of the Pattern. Shapechanging with the True Power fits well with the altering of things of the Pattern, if I am right on this I would assume it would have similar restrictions to a Mask of Mirrors-ie the more you change, the harder-but the True Power version would atually change the features, and so would survive holding someones hand and whatnot. If Moridin is Taim, with his features slightly changed with the True Power... if he had to maintain it by holding the True Power, as a Mask of Mirrors needs maintaining with the One Power I think, then it would explain why Moridin has the sa'a already.

Basically, you're being ridiculous.

It's about as substantive an argument as my new RAND IS THE DO theory:

Rand can use the TP

The TP is the DO

Therefore Rand is the DO.

SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE!

The DO always knows the Dragon!

The Dragon is always reborn to fight the DO!

Therefore the DO has a dual personality problem

[OptimusPrime]

Hahaha, it is far fetched but I dont think its that bad

[Sharaman]

Worms in the Blight can transform, human and animal can be merged to make Trollocs, Slayer can enter T'A'R in the flesh and change into someone else. All are connected to the Dark One or True Power, which corrupts and alters. Plus, the One Power itself shows something that touches upon shapechanging, look at Siuan before and after being stilled. People who had worked closely with her for years didnt recognise her because of the lack of the ageless wuality, which is a side effect of being bound by the Oath Rod. Aaaaand in T'A'R when Rand and Rahvin fought there in the flesh Rahvin tried changing Rand into an animal or some such.

 

There are plenty of hints for shapechanging. The True Power has been shown to alter things of the Pattern as often as corrupt yet still have some areas of crossing over with what can and cant be done. Like, Travelling for example. Rand describes it as boring a hole through the Pattern. But when Ishamael/Moridin Travel they seemed to fade out IIRC as if they might be stepping outside the Pattern, which would be understandable as the source of the True Power is not of the Pattern. Shapechanging with the True Power fits well with the altering of things of the Pattern, if I am right on this I would assume it would have similar restrictions to a Mask of Mirrors-ie the more you change, the harder-but the True Power version would atually change the features, and so would survive holding someones hand and whatnot. If Moridin is Taim, with his features slightly changed with the True Power... if he had to maintain it by holding the True Power, as a Mask of Mirrors needs maintaining with the One Power I think, then it would explain why Moridin has the sa'a already.

 

Most of the changes you're referring to above, are permanent and cannot be reversed.

TAR is not the real world; objects and people can be created at will in TAR and that has nothing to do with the One Power or True Power.

We don't know how Slayer happened but he's pretty much the only creature we've seen that can change back and forth at will.

I'd say that the existence of Slayer is your sole piece of evidence if Slayer can be called evidence.

Anyway, interesting theory. Thanks.

 

[lordofsoup]

slayer is just two souls that got dumped into one body by the DO, like arangar and osangar except the DO threw out the original residents. 

[Lironah]

As pointed out at the Thirteenth Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html), when Taim first appears, he is stated to be "of slightly above average height" from Rand's perspective.  However, when Elayne meets him, he is "tall, nearly as tall as Rand", and she'd know, having done a lot of kissing of the latter.  Linda also cites an instance of Perrin observing him to be "of a size with Rand".

 

So Taim's height is verifiably inconsistent.  This also almost completely rules out use of Saidin for the Mask of Mirrors, depending on whether the guy behind it is stupid enough to risk his disguise that way.  Semirhage did it, so it's not impossible, but still.

[Sharaman]

Rand's own PoV places Moridin as "at least as tall" (and bigger-built) than himself.

If we assume Rand's take on "average height" is influenced by his own height and by constantly associating with Aiel, it's not inconsistent.

Taim is taller than the Westland average, even taller than Aiel average, but he's still somewhat shorter than Rand. Moridin is as tall as, or slightly taller than Rand.

The MoM on the face is more or less unbreakable if somebody doesn't try to physically poke Taim in the kisser (assuming sa'a can be concealed by dark eyes).

The variations in length of arm, torso, etc, are much more difficult to explain away.

 

[OptimusPrime]

slayer is just two souls that got dumped into one body by the DO, like arangar and osangar except the DO threw out the original residents.  

 

When was that explained? Two souls in one body, what about the other body that he changes into? Slayer goes there in the flesh and becomes a different person entirely. Although he does it in a way that fits with Elayne and co changing appearances in T'A'R, he comes out a different man entirely.

 

Look at Slayer this way; supposedly, then, when Rand and Rahvin fought and Rahvin tried changing Rand into an animal, while in the flesh-what would happen if Rand then left T'A'R as the animal? Would he refer back to being Rand, seeing as Rahvin was supposedly manipilating T'A'R and not channeling? If the answer is yes, he would revert to his normal form, then try explaining Slayer. He goes into T'A'R in the flesh and can come out as someone else in the flesh. A gift of the Dark One, of course it is. But how? Because of something the Dark One did of course, and seeing as the Dark One is the source of the True Power, its safe to assume that the True Power is... not at work when Slayer changes, but had been involved in the making of Slayers abilities. He might do it by manipulating T'A'R, but the reason the change is permanent is because his ability came from the source of the True Power. Slayer goes into the dream as one person in the flesh and comes out as someone else. Whatever way you look at it, that is changing your shape. Just not channeling the True Power to do it.

 

Worms in the Blight can transform, human and animal can be merged to make Trollocs, Slayer can enter T'A'R in the flesh and change into someone else. All are connected to the Dark One or True Power, which corrupts and alters. Plus, the One Power itself shows something that touches upon shapechanging, look at Siuan before and after being stilled. People who had worked closely with her for years didnt recognise her because of the lack of the ageless wuality, which is a side effect of being bound by the Oath Rod. Aaaaand in T'A'R when Rand and Rahvin fought there in the flesh Rahvin tried changing Rand into an animal or some such.

 

There are plenty of hints for shapechanging. The True Power has been shown to alter things of the Pattern as often as corrupt yet still have some areas of crossing over with what can and cant be done. Like, Travelling for example. Rand describes it as boring a hole through the Pattern. But when Ishamael/Moridin Travel they seemed to fade out IIRC as if they might be stepping outside the Pattern, which would be understandable as the source of the True Power is not of the Pattern. Shapechanging with the True Power fits well with the altering of things of the Pattern, if I am right on this I would assume it would have similar restrictions to a Mask of Mirrors-ie the more you change, the harder-but the True Power version would atually change the features, and so would survive holding someones hand and whatnot. If Moridin is Taim, with his features slightly changed with the True Power... if he had to maintain it by holding the True Power, as a Mask of Mirrors needs maintaining with the One Power I think, then it would explain why Moridin has the sa'a already.

 

Most of the changes you're referring to above, are permanent and cannot be reversed.

 

The only thing I can think of that feels impossible to undo is Trollocs. The question pops up though, could a Trolloc then be merged with something else? No reason to believe why not, you would just need Aginor and his lab and the True Power.

 

I'd say that the existence of Slayer is your sole piece of evidence if Slayer can be called evidence.

 

I to be honest think the theory has very little solid evidence behind it. The thing about it is... if I had said in book 6 that Dashiva was Osan'gar was Aginor, people would have said "Hes dead" and Id reply with "Ishamael says the Great Lord could bring Ilyena back in EotW prologue" and people would have without a doubt quoted RJs famous "You believe Ishamael? Come on!" line, simply because there had been no great reason to think the dead could be raised in any way other than "the words of a madman." I think shapechanging has more hints pointing at it than reincarnation did before that happened. I just think the word shapechanging doesnt feel like a Wheel of Time word and that might be part of peoples initial discarding of the idea when I raised it.

 

Or I could be wrong. The Big Bang knows I can be, I mean, someone on here briefly convinced me that Lanfear killed Asmodean. Im not saying this is the only option I see as possible. But hopefully it might convince the diehard Taimandred supporters that Taim wasnt changed from being Demandred, because there are plenty of hints pointing in directions other than both Demandred and Ishamael/Moridin.

[Mr Ares]

The thing about it is... if I had said in book 6 that Dashiva was Osan'gar was Aginor, people would have said "Hes dead" and Id reply with "Ishamael says the Great Lord could bring Ilyena back in EotW prologue" and people would have without a doubt quoted RJs famous "You believe Ishamael? Come on!" line, simply because there had been no great reason to think the dead could be raised in any way other than "the words of a madman." I think shapechanging has more hints pointing at it than reincarnation did before that happened.

If you had said that during book 6, a more likely response would be "who the hell is Dashiva? And are you sure Osan'gar isn't Balthamel?" Given that the resurrection of two Chosen was made quite clear in the prologue to said book, and Dashiva wasn't introduced until ACoS. And Aginor did hint in EotW that he and Balthamel could be given new bodies. Just so you know.

[OptimusPrime]

The thing about it is... if I had said in book 6 that Dashiva was Osan'gar was Aginor, people would have said "Hes dead" and Id reply with "Ishamael says the Great Lord could bring Ilyena back in EotW prologue" and people would have without a doubt quoted RJs famous "You believe Ishamael? Come on!" line, simply because there had been no great reason to think the dead could be raised in any way other than "the words of a madman." I think shapechanging has more hints pointing at it than reincarnation did before that happened.

If you had said that during book 6, a more likely response would be "who the hell is Dashiva? And are you sure Osan'gar isn't Balthamel?" Given that the resurrection of two Chosen was made quite clear in the prologue to said book, and Dashiva wasn't introduced until ACoS. And Aginor did hint in EotW that he and Balthamel could be given new bodies. Just so you know.

 

Just so I know... for what reason? So the odd hint that I didnt notice, big deal. I still think there have been enough hints for appearance altering.

[Lacanos]

The thing about it is... if I had said in book 6 that Dashiva was Osan'gar was Aginor, people would have said "Hes dead" and Id reply with "Ishamael says the Great Lord could bring Ilyena back in EotW prologue" and people would have without a doubt quoted RJs famous "You believe Ishamael? Come on!" line, simply because there had been no great reason to think the dead could be raised in any way other than "the words of a madman." I think shapechanging has more hints pointing at it than reincarnation did before that happened.

If you had said that during book 6, a more likely response would be "who the hell is Dashiva? And are you sure Osan'gar isn't Balthamel?" Given that the resurrection of two Chosen was made quite clear in the prologue to said book, and Dashiva wasn't introduced until ACoS. And Aginor did hint in EotW that he and Balthamel could be given new bodies. Just so you know.

 

Just so I know... for what reason? So the odd hint that I didnt notice, big deal. I still think there have been enough hints for appearance altering.

That's a terrible example because it doesn't make sense for the reasons he pointed out.

Now, I've explained to you a page back that shape-changing isn't possible with the TP - the Saa being the exception (but they compare to slowing from use of the OP rather than physical shapechanging).