Pillow Friends

[BeckeyLee]

I'm just curious. What exactly are pillow friends?

 

At first it seemed innocent enough, but as the series has gone on it seems to be implicating that it means lesbian lovers?

Am I the only one thinking this?

[Kadere]

From RJ's blog:

 

And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends.  Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce.  By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower.  The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.

 

So yes, it's a term used for lesbians in the White Tower. But in RJ's world most of the women seem to grow out of this "phase." Such as Siuane and Moiraine were at one time pillow friends, but in New Spring we see that they now like men. There are other lesbians in the series such as Galina, Shalon of the Sea Folk, and Lady Ailil of House Riatin.

[BeckeyLee]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but hadn't seen anything official about it, in the books or otherwise.

 

Thanks for the quick answer.  :)

[Impressive Bosom]

I'm just curious. What exactly are pillow friends?

 

At first it seemed innocent enough, but as the series has gone on it seems to be implicating that it means lesbian lovers?

Am I the only one thinking this?

 

Think of it as a little 'experimentation in college' that is usually grown out of, but every now and then becomes something more. Siuan and Moiraine were pillow friends back in the day, but I doubt we'll get to see any more of that, since both are clearly very much into men.

 

le sigh

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, it seems to be kind of a LUG (Lesbian Until Graduation) type thing.  They don't let novices around men, so they need a sexual outlet elsewhere.  It's sort of like porn movies where lesbianism is just something that women do to kill the time until some guy shows up to clean the pool.

 

[Beer Rot]

I'm waiting on some hot and heavy pillow friends POVs from the black tower.

 

It's sort of like porn movies where lesbianism is just something that women do to kill the time until some guy shows up to clean the pool.

 

Haha! I snorted so hard I hurt my nose.

[Luckers]

Think of it as a little 'experimentation in college' that is usually grown out of

 

It's actually not that. Experimentation implies testing something to decide if its right for you. That's very in key with the importance our society places on sexuality, yet it doesn't fit what's going on here. In the society of the Wheel there is no importance placed on whether you are straight or gay, thus the idea of experimentation is pointless.

 

In truth this has more in commen with mutual masterbation between close friends. A sort of bonding. It exceeds this of course--our society can have no equivelent because there is such strict definitions, but that's the closest. The fact is though that the world of the Wheel has a relationship type our world doesn't (though there are societies in history which have had this style). This relationship is the friends which include sex. It isn't friends with benefits, there is genuine affection involved--but its also not a romantic relationship quite as we would term it today. It's somewhere between.

 

It's sort of like porn movies where lesbianism is just something that women do to kill the time until some guy shows up to clean the pool.

 

It is most definately not this. Moiraine and Siuan show there is considerable feeling between the two of them. Neither are what we would, in todays words, term lesbian, but they arn't just 'killing time' till a man shows up. They feel great affection for each other.

[BeckeyLee]

I vaguely remember a scene, where Rand burst into a room and found two women together, he tied them up and shoved them under the bed. Am I remembering that correctly? and if so, I can't recall who they were or where that was at, but I thought they were found to be pillow friends and that it would be embarrassing if anyone found out.

[Amadine]

Think of it as a little 'experimentation in college' that is usually grown out of

 

It's actually not that. Experimentation implies testing something to decide if its right for you. That's very in key with the importance our society places on sexuality, yet it doesn't fit what's going on here. In the society of the Wheel there is no importance placed on whether you are straight or gay, thus the idea of experimentation is pointless.

 

In truth this has more in commen with mutual masterbation between close friends. A sort of bonding. It exceeds this of course--our society can have no equivelent because there is such strict definitions, but that's the closest. The fact is though that the world of the Wheel has a relationship type our world doesn't (though there are societies in history which have had this style). This relationship is the friends which include sex. It isn't friends with benefits, there is genuine affection involved--but its also not a romantic relationship quite as we would term it today. It's somewhere between.

 

It's sort of like porn movies where lesbianism is just something that women do to kill the time until some guy shows up to clean the pool.

 

It is most definately not this. Moiraine and Siuan show there is considerable feeling between the two of them. Neither are what we would, in todays words, term lesbian, but they arn't just 'killing time' till a man shows up. They feel great affection for each other.

 

Agreed. To me it seemed that Pillow Friends came about because young girls just hitting puberty were off to the tower to learn to channel, ripped away from their former lives and families at a time when support and love is greatly needed. The girls found a way to love and support each other in a more intense way than just being friends. It's not a "lesbian" thing, it's a need thing. All of us crave the feeling of closeness that sex brings, for the girls in the tower it was the closeness that is important rather than the sex.

 

Well, i'm not sure if i got that out exactly how i mean it to sound, but at this time of night it's all i have to work with.

[Majsju]

I vaguely remember a scene, where Rand burst into a room and found two women together, he tied them up and shoved them under the bed. Am I remembering that correctly? and if so, I can't recall who they were or where that was at, but I thought they were found to be pillow friends and that it would be embarrassing if anyone found out.

 

Yup, those two were pillowfriends. Though, the "embarassing" part was because one was from Cairhien, and thus extremely prude when it comes to anything more physical than a handshake. And the other was married...

[Yizun]

I vaguely remember a scene, where Rand burst into a room and found two women together, he tied them up and shoved them under the bed. Am I remembering that correctly? and if so, I can't recall who they were or where that was at, but I thought they were found to be pillow friends and that it would be embarrassing if anyone found out.

 

Aye, it was a scene from The Path of Daggers, i just got finished reading that scene not to long ago. It was when Rand was running from the Asha'Man tried to kill him.

[Mr Ares]

Think of it as a little 'experimentation in college' that is usually grown out of

 

It's actually not that. Experimentation implies testing something to decide if its right for you. That's very in key with the importance our society places on sexuality, yet it doesn't fit what's going on here. In the society of the Wheel there is no importance placed on whether you are straight or gay, thus the idea of experimentation is pointless.

 

In truth this has more in commen with mutual masterbation between close friends. A sort of bonding. It exceeds this of course--our society can have no equivelent because there is such strict definitions, but that's the closest. The fact is though that the world of the Wheel has a relationship type our world doesn't (though there are societies in history which have had this style). This relationship is the friends which include sex. It isn't friends with benefits, there is genuine affection involved--but its also not a romantic relationship quite as we would term it today. It's somewhere between.

 

It's sort of like porn movies where lesbianism is just something that women do to kill the time until some guy shows up to clean the pool.

 

It is most definately not this. Moiraine and Siuan show there is considerable feeling between the two of them. Neither are what we would, in todays words, term lesbian, but they arn't just 'killing time' till a man shows up. They feel great affection for each other.

 

Agreed. To me it seemed that Pillow Friends came about because young girls just hitting puberty were off to the tower to learn to channel, ripped away from their former lives and families at a time when support and love is greatly needed. The girls found a way to love and support each other in a more intense way than just being friends. It's not a "lesbian" thing, it's a need thing. All of us crave the feeling of closeness that sex brings, for the girls in the tower it was the closeness that is important rather than the sex.

 

Well, i'm not sure if i got that out exactly how i mean it to sound, but at this time of night it's all i have to work with.

No, we don't. You mean most, not all.

 

.....And am I the only person who doesn't associate college/university with sexual experimentation? I went there for an education.

[ravenfier]

so did I, I happened to chatch a husband there too, but I went to get a degree. Now High School thats a different story......... ;D

[FarShainMael]

I had boyfriends at uni and elsewhere, but I was 'silver ring' on my wedding night.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Think of it as a little 'experimentation in college' that is usually grown out of

 

It's actually not that. Experimentation implies testing something to decide if its right for you. That's very in key with the importance our society places on sexuality, yet it doesn't fit what's going on here. In the society of the Wheel there is no importance placed on whether you are straight or gay, thus the idea of experimentation is pointless.

 

In truth this has more in commen with mutual masterbation between close friends. A sort of bonding. It exceeds this of course--our society can have no equivelent because there is such strict definitions, but that's the closest. The fact is though that the world of the Wheel has a relationship type our world doesn't (though there are societies in history which have had this style). This relationship is the friends which include sex. It isn't friends with benefits, there is genuine affection involved--but its also not a romantic relationship quite as we would term it today. It's somewhere between.

 

It's sort of like porn movies where lesbianism is just something that women do to kill the time until some guy shows up to clean the pool.

 

It is most definately not this. Moiraine and Siuan show there is considerable feeling between the two of them. Neither are what we would, in todays words, term lesbian, but they arn't just 'killing time' till a man shows up. They feel great affection for each other.

 

I would say that your interpretation of this is very accurate when it comes to what was between Moiraine and Siuan from what we saw... however, I would not universally apply the same concept or emotion across the board to every girl in the tower. I have found that there are many types of 'relationships' out there as there are people to enjoy them, both in our world and I suspect in the WoT as well, regardless of society. Meaning that between girls in the Tower, it could well be the experiementation I suggested, the natural extention of shared intimacy you put forth, or even the outright porn-scenario suggested by our friend.

 

The term 'Pillow friends' simply means women (of the Tower) who have had and perhaps continue to have sex. It is, in my opinion, divorced from context beyond the physical act when being used to describe the women of the Tower as a whole.

[featherxquill]

I think what everyone has to say on Pillow Friends is really interesting. Interesting interpretations of it. What I got from it, when I read, was that there really isn't much of a concept of homosexuality, as the modern world understands it, in the WoT universe.

 

I can't find it now, and that frustrates me, but some time ago I read a fabulous essay on sexuality in the ancient world written by one of my livejournal friends, who is a history professor. I don't claim to know anything whatsoever myself about ancient sexuality, so if anyone is a history scholar/buff and I'm remembering things wrong, feel free to call me on it.

 

But basically, what I recall of it is that in the ancient (and hence pre-Christian) world, there wasn't much at all of a concept of homosexuality. People had relationships with others of the same sex, with varying degrees of acceptance depending on which society you're talking about, but it was very much seen as a choice someone made to have a relationship with someone of the same sex, rather than something that was intrinsically part of who they were. Many people would have same-sex relationships during their lives, and yet go on to also have heterosexual relationships/reproduce, and this was a completely normal thing.

 

That is sort of how I see the Pillow Friends idea in WoT. The WoT world isn't a Christian society, even a fantasy one (the Whitecloaks embody everything that is worst about extreme expressions of religion, though they are certainly not Christian either, except in the minds of readers who would see them as such - there is nothing particularly Christian about their practices that I can see, though admittedly I am not Christian so I could be missing some things, if they are there). It isn't a place where sex must be for reproduction and hence anything else is wrong, nor is it a modern society that understands homosexuality as an aspect of personality, not a lifestyle choice.

 

So I see Pillow Friends in WoT somewhat along these lines. Not something that makes an Aes Sedai even bat an eyelid, because it is neither shocking nor does it imply that a woman is not or will never be interested in men. Of course, the Cairheinen woman is mortified by it because of her own society, and he Sea Folk woman because she believes her husband would see it as a betrayal, but overall, same-sex relationships are not something to be shocked by or discouraged, nor are they understood as meaning that either party is necessarily homosexual. I think it works incredibly well in the context of the world. Jordan handled that particular question of human sexuality with aplomb.

 

(P.S. I really want to read Moiraine/Siuan Pillow-Friend fanfic. Is there any, or will I have to write it myself?)

[ravenfier]

you are correct with you assesment of ancient sex.

 

Also remember this it was considered better to do a boy or a prostitute than have an affair with another noble in Greco-Roman society. I could make some modern jokes about this but for those who are sensitive to current events I will refrian.

 

Also this might have also been brought up in the books when one of the Mains finds out about preferences of someone else, I might be mixing it up with another series tho. But either way they just kinda shrug and say what ever floats the boat and the story goes on.

[Tel Janin]

.....And am I the only person who doesn't associate college/university with sexual experimentation? I went there for an education.

 

Well, there's an education and then there's an 'Education' ("Are you trying to seduce me, Mrs. Robinson?").  ;D

 

Hell, what do I know.  I enlisted in the service versus going to college, and serving these last 25 years has been a different sort of education... :o

 

My two coppers.

[Ashaman Kovan]

.....And am I the only person who doesn't associate college/university with sexual experimentation? I went there for an education.

 

The short answer: Yes. But then again you're much older than say...Me for instance. And most folks my age do associate the one with the other. It's a generalization, but probably a true one.

[Casabamelon]

.....And am I the only person who doesn't associate college/university with sexual experimentation? I went there for an education.

 

I went to college in my hometown, so I lived with my folks, so HELL NO! I don't associate college with experimentation.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I went to college in my hometown, so I lived with my folks, so HELL NO! I don't associate college with experimentation.

 

See, that is exactly why I made sure that I went to college in a different city the one my parents were in.

 

[alligator]

.....And am I the only person who doesn't associate college/university with sexual experimentation? I went there for an education.

 

No. And I'm young.  :P

[Malruhn]

Yeah, I've always maintained that college was for nothing BUT experimentation... oh... and some classes as well.  And I started college before most of you were born (1980).

 

One thing that I've noticed is that the term "pillow friends" is only used for lesbian encounters - and that even older Sisters that took female lovers were still called "pillow friends."  If a Sister takes a man to bed, he's a "lover," but a woman is still a "pillow friend"... so there's a distinction made.

 

To support my argument, in The Knife of Dreams, Elaida admits she knows her old PF wants to spy on her - and she may take her as a PF again, just to give her false info - and when the AS come back with Black Tower Warders, the question is raised if the one Sister has taken Logain as a Lover.

 

And, like Tel Janin, after some college, I went to the military as well.  I should be retiring in a couple of years.

[Beer Rot]

And, like Tel Janin, after some college, I went to the military as well.  I should be retiring in a couple of years.

 

Thank you for your service.

[Malruhn]

I appreciate the thanks, and consider it an honor to be able to serve - but it's almost like thanking a kid for playing in a playground... I've had such a wonderful time for over 22 years that I hate the thought of leaving.

 

Oh - and I was just notified that I'm on the short-list to go down to the Gulf for the oil spill response and cleanup.  Don't tell my wife, but I'd even do this job for FREE!

____________________

 

And just to get back on topic... who else would like to see a scene where Perrin walks out of his tent, tucking in his shirt - with a sheen of sweat, and walking away while whistling a happy tune - to be followed several minutes later by Berelain - looking all disheveled, trying to smooth her dress and tuck her mussed-up hair - walking all funny as she heads toward her tent?

 

I'd PAY to read that one.  I don't care if Faile would gut them both like trout... I still wanna see it.