Aes Sedai self defense from the Seanchan and the Three Oaths.

[Som1else]

or another aie sedai, I've also thought about this Q and have wondered if near TG the oath against using the one power as a weapon will become obsolete if the sister is convinced that there actions are nessacray for victory in TG

[Luckers]

I can see the ways Aes Sedai could dance around the Oaths in this--warders and so forth--though in my opinion it would hinder them. The problem with waiting until someone threatens your life or your warders is that with channelers the result is that by the time you appreciate the threat, you're likely dead or leashed.

 

That being said, I doubt the other Aes Sedai had as easy a time as Egwene did--and the certainly couldn't have done what she did against the to'raken and raken in the air--Aes Sedai have to percieve a specific threat of life to a specific person, and that would be impossible against creatures just flying around the Tower, even if they were killing.

 

What annoyed me though was the casual way Egwene shrugged off the use of gateways as making a weapon for one man to kill another. I would have preferred the Aes Sedai simply not think about it, then think a slid down such a slim line.

[Ashling]

Personally I'm more concerned about them making such a hash of defending the Tower..

[b24shawn]

I can see the ways Aes Sedai could dance around the Oaths in this--warders and so forth--though in my opinion it would hinder them. The problem with waiting until someone threatens your life or your warders is that with channelers the result is that by the time you appreciate the threat, you're likely dead or leashed.

 

That being said, I doubt the other Aes Sedai had as easy a time as Egwene did--and the certainly couldn't have done what she did against the to'raken and raken in the air--Aes Sedai have to percieve a specific threat of life to a specific person, and that would be impossible against creatures just flying around the Tower, even if they were killing.

 

Why would the Aes Sedia not be able to attack the to'raken and raken? I thought these animals as well as the grolm were generally perceived to be Shadowspawn, at least among most Randlanders. Sorry not sure how I am screwed up and put my thoughts inside Lucker's quote.

[Beer Rot]

What annoyed me though was the casual way Egwene shrugged off the use of gateways as making a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Wait.. what?

 

Explain more on this Luckers.

[Mr Ares]

I can see the ways Aes Sedai could dance around the Oaths in this--warders and so forth--though in my opinion it would hinder them. The problem with waiting until someone threatens your life or your warders is that with channelers the result is that by the time you appreciate the threat, you're likely dead or leashed.

 

That being said, I doubt the other Aes Sedai had as easy a time as Egwene did--and the certainly couldn't have done what she did against the to'raken and raken in the air--Aes Sedai have to percieve a specific threat of life to a specific person, and that would be impossible against creatures just flying around the Tower, even if they were killing.

Why would the Aes Sedia not be able to attack the to'raken and raken? I thought these animals as well as the grolm were generally perceived to be Shadowspawn, at least among most Randlanders. Sorry not sure how I am screwed up and put my thoughts inside Lucker's quote.

The creatures themselves might be considered viable targets, but not the people on them - if they are not an immediate threat to life (for example, one just taking off) then they couldn't be killed. And killing the beast they're riding would be a little bit on the fatal side.

[Luckers]

What annoyed me though was the casual way Egwene shrugged off the use of gateways as making a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Wait.. what?

 

Explain more on this Luckers.

 

To use a gateway to allow men to attack other men, as Egwene suggests in tGS for the attack on Tar Valon, seems very much using the Power to create a weapon for one man to kill another. I could have abided if the Aes Sedai simply did not think of this, and did it in ignorence, but Brandon had Egwene directly consider whether creating gateways to assist in the assault was creating a weapon, and deciding it wasn't.

 

That seems wrong, to me. The reason for opening those gateways is to help the soldiers attack the defenders of Tar Valon. That seems to me to be creating a weapon with which one many may kill another.

 

Why would the Aes Sedia not be able to attack the to'raken and raken? I thought these animals as well as the grolm were generally perceived to be Shadowspawn, at least among most Randlanders. Sorry not sure how I am screwed up and put my thoughts inside Lucker's quote.

 

Because they aren't shadowspawn, a fact which most Aes Sedai seem to have become aware of based on their POV's during the attack. Sure the random ignorent Aes Sedai may have made the same assumption Nicola did--much as what occurred after the use of the Bowl of the Winds--but by and large the Aes Sedai realised fairly quickly it was the Seanchan attacking, whereupon they could not attack them without percieving a direct specific threat.

[Beer Rot]

What annoyed me though was the casual way Egwene shrugged off the use of gateways as making a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Wait.. what?

 

Explain more on this Luckers.

 

To use a gateway to allow men to attack other men, as Egwene suggests in tGS for the attack on Tar Valon, seems very much using the Power to create a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Did she suggest it was using the OP as a weapon (3rd oath), or to create a weapon (2nd oath)?  I won't have my copy of tGS for a few days.

 

I could have abided if the Aes Sedai simply did not think of this, and did it in ignorence, but Brandon had Egwene directly consider whether creating gateways to assist in the assault was creating a weapon, and deciding it wasn't.

 

That seems wrong, to me. The reason for opening those gateways is to help the soldiers attack the defenders of Tar Valon. That seems to me to be creating a weapon with which one many may kill another.

 

Is this a weird interpretation?  Isn't that oath supposed to refer to the physical creation of a weapon..  all the power wrought weapons made, and was put in place so no more could be made.

 

I'd think at the most, it might be stretching it to say it's using the OP as a weapon.

[Jonas Dagaard]

Dispite the bravado, I would personally say that having ones will/spirit broken to the point that the "person" no longer exists would constitute as "death".  Is it the physical ending of life?  No, but the person is truly no longer there…they have been destroyed.  While it is easy to sit in our comfy chairs nice and safe and proclaim how well we might rail against being made a slave and how well we would break it….the bottom line is, we wouldn’t and honestly couldn’t (for the most part…there is a tiny percentage that could indeed resist but on the whole, especially considering talking one power chances are we would all break like dry twigs).  

 

To define death as ONLY through ceasing of life functions…well, I find that to be a bit limited in view.  There is more to "life" than just being a breathing body.  

 

Given this I would say in the case of the attack against the tower, I would say they had every right to defend themselves and all within the tower using the Power.  There is plenty to indicate the "oaths" had no issue otherwise I believe it would have been noted specifically.

"crabcakes!   I can't use the power against those attackers who are killing and capturing AS to make slaves because such a course of action would violate the oaths!  Bloody ashes!"

 

 

Death can be achieved on multiple levels~

[Hadilmir]

Lucker's you could take that argument and say an Aes Sedai could not heal a soldier on the battlefield since the Aes Sedai would be allowing the soldier to kill again. It's all about how direct the Aes Sedai perceives her actions to be. As long as the gateway doesn't cut anyone in half then it isn't a weapon, but a means of transportation.

[DemandredFO]

Regarding gateways, I'd think oathbound AS wouldn't be able to open them because the opening gateway might kill someone.

As to the stupidity of the oaths, the to'raken had prisoners, so I doubt a bound AS would be able to strike.

Perfect example being Daigion, she couldn't decide whether or not Arangar was a threat and got Ebin killed.  Whereas Damar, either because he's older or because Corele loves him, he was in charge and didn't hesitate to attack Demandred.  What if something like that happens again, there are still foresaken, any number of DF's and who knows what else.  As others have said too, battle requires snap decisions, taking time to rationalize will most like get you killed, as Shen'an'calhar(sp) experienced while waiting for Joline, Teslyn and Ediscena.

[Hadilmir]

Perfect example being Daigion, she couldn't decide whether or not Arangar was a threat and got Ebin killed.

A woman who is not holding Saidar, and appears unable to, is not a threat. There was no decision it was just an example of an Aes Sedai being incautious. The same as Demandred not blasting Flinn as soon as he saw him.

[DemandredFO]

I get what you're saying but the Foresaken are arrogance walking.  As for Arangar, in that time and place a woman walking in the middle of nowhere alone is asking for trouble.  I guess we'll never know for sure but I tend to believe the oaths stopped her.

[baalsmistress]

It would be a lesser stretch for the AS to consider that the Seanchan, in seeking to weaken the white tower, and thus weakening the forces opposing the shadow, are acting as friends to the dark. And slide past the 3rd oath by considering them to be darkfriends.

[Kahsm]

What annoyed me though was the casual way Egwene shrugged off the use of gateways as making a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Wait.. what?

 

Explain more on this Luckers.

 

To use a gateway to allow men to attack other men, as Egwene suggests in tGS for the attack on Tar Valon, seems very much using the Power to create a weapon for one man to kill another. I could have abided if the Aes Sedai simply did not think of this, and did it in ignorence, but Brandon had Egwene directly consider whether creating gateways to assist in the assault was creating a weapon, and deciding it wasn't.

 

That seems wrong, to me. The reason for opening those gateways is to help the soldiers attack the defenders of Tar Valon. That seems to me to be creating a weapon with which one many may kill another.

 

But doesn't that mean that Brandon, and therefore Egwene, agrees with you, and therefore Egwene needed to convince herself that it wasn't, so that she could convince others that it wasn't, and herself once she swore.

[LeeM.Erickson]

It would be a lesser stretch for the AS to consider that the Seanchan, in seeking to weaken the white tower, and thus weakening the forces opposing the shadow, are acting as friends to the dark. And slide past the 3rd oath by considering them to be darkfriends.

 

Consideration isn't the issue, it's belief. You can't just point to someone and say to yourself in your head "He's a Darkfriend, he's a Darkfriend, he's a Darkfriend..." and be able to attack them. You have to truly believe it. Aes Sedai are educated, and generally intelligent. I don't think they could justify something like "Well, if they're attacking the Tower they MUST be all Darkfriends." They're too well traveled to fall for that. I mean, they could tell themselves that, but if they don't believe it in their bones there's not much they can do to get around their oaths. There could very well be Aes Sedai who believe Seanchan are Darkfriends and their exotic animals are Shadowspawn, but if you don't already believe that, I don't think you can just convince yourself to change your beliefs without proof.

[jsbrads]

arguably, daved hanlon could be standing in the hall of the tower with a mat's ter angreal, and the room can be full of Aes Sedai who don't know he is a DF, he can pull a sword and announce his desire to go get a tower servant and casually run the person through the heart and the AS can't pull the roof down on his head to stop him.

 

Oaths are broken, need fixing.

[Sharaman]

BTW in the cleansing scene, was Flynn linked to Corele when he faced off vs Demandred?

IIRC it was so.

Would that make Flynn taking the first shot a little difficult because Corele (who is apparently not BA) would have to assume she/ her warder was in danger or else she would be choked off in the link?

Or would she cede control totally and just let him make that judgment call?

Or did Demandred take the first shot?

 

Similar problems even for Elza and Verin since they were both linked to non-BA Aes Sedai.

Again, IIRC, Verin got around that because she tried to capture Graendal and only hit back later, after Graendal struck at her.

But Elza just flamed Dashiva on sight, using Callandor which means that Merise (?) would have to go along with Elza's judgment that Dashiva represented clear and present danger. Of course, this is possible since Merise probably knows that Dashiva tried to kill Rand in Carhein (TPoD).

My memories of WH are not so good because I haven't read it for years so I'd appreciate clarification.

[Mr Ares]

arguably, daved hanlon could be standing in the hall of the tower with a mat's ter angreal, and the room can be full of Aes Sedai who don't know he is a DF, he can pull a sword and announce his desire to go get a tower servant and casually run the person through the heart and the AS can't pull the roof down on his head to stop him.

 

Oaths are broken, need fixing.

How is that evidence of the oaths being broken? What the AS could do is pick up a nearby object, such as a chair, and use it to pin Hanlon to the wall. This can be done with the Power, within the Oaths, unhindered by the ter'angreal. Also, requires less fixing than bringing the roof down on someone. And, of course, one might be able to bring the roof down in a non-fatal way.

 

 

BTW in the cleansing scene, was Flynn linked to Corele when he faced off vs Demandred?

IIRC it was so.

Would that make Flynn taking the first shot a little difficult because Corele (who is apparently not BA) would have to assume she/ her warder was in danger or else she would be choked off in the link?

Or would she cede control totally and just let him make that judgment call?

Or did Demandred take the first shot?

Flinn was in control of that link. Flinn is not bound by the Oaths.

 

Similar problems even for Elza and Verin since they were both linked to non-BA Aes Sedai.

Again, IIRC, Verin got around that because she tried to capture Graendal and only hit back later, after Graendal struck at her.

But Elza just flamed Dashiva on sight, using Callandor which means that Merise (?) would have to go along with Elza's judgment that Dashiva represented clear and present danger. Of course, this is possible since Merise probably knows that Dashiva tried to kill Rand in Carhein (TPoD).

My memories of WH are not so good because I haven't read it for years so I'd appreciate clarification.

Well, SL isn't exactly a busy place. Who is likely to be there? No innocent bystanders, possibly any AS or Asha'man who Travelled to see what was going on, but more than likely all you will be facing are Darkfriends. The Oaths are unlikely to be a problem in such a situation. Elza could see Dashiva and identify him as a renegade, so it wouldn't be a stretch for an AS to assume a renegade Asha'man there is up to no good.

 

Also, as it is the person in control of the link who decides what is done with the Power, any Oaths sworn by others in the link becomes moot - they are not using the OP as a weapon. Although the Oaths might prevent an AS agreeing to join a link that they thought might be used to violate the Oaths.

[baalsmistress]

It would be a lesser stretch for the AS to consider that the Seanchan, in seeking to weaken the white tower, and thus weakening the forces opposing the shadow, are acting as friends to the dark. And slide past the 3rd oath by considering them to be darkfriends.

 

Consideration isn't the issue, it's belief. You can't just point to someone and say to yourself in your head "He's a Darkfriend, he's a Darkfriend, he's a Darkfriend..." and be able to attack them. You have to truly believe it. Aes Sedai are educated, and generally intelligent. I don't think they could justify something like "Well, if they're attacking the Tower they MUST be all Darkfriends." They're too well traveled to fall for that. I mean, they could tell themselves that, but if they don't believe it in their bones there's not much they can do to get around their oaths. There could very well be Aes Sedai who believe Seanchan are Darkfriends and their exotic animals are Shadowspawn, but if you don't already believe that, I don't think you can just convince yourself to change your beliefs without proof.

 

 

Hardly a big stretch for *US* to consider that the Aes Sedai would believe the seanchan to be darkfriends when they appear, wielding the one power as a weapon, on flying mounts that have never been by most.

 

As for widely travelled being a counter. The Children of the Light are also widely travelled, and yet consider anyone that disagrees with them in the slightest degree a darkfriend.

[jsbrads]

what if there are no chairs nearby (or other objects)

the AS would have to let him murder an innocent rather than bring down the ceiling on Daved

(that scene with Elayne stretches the imagination, she must have just reacted really late)

[Mr Ares]

what if there are no chairs nearby (or other objects)

the AS would have to let him murder an innocent rather than bring down the ceiling on Daved

(that scene with Elayne stretches the imagination, she must have just reacted really late)

As I already said, they could bring down the ceiling in a non-fatal way. Also, nothing stops them from intervening in a way that doesn't involve the OP.

[Sharaman]

BTW in the cleansing scene, was Flynn linked to Corele when he faced off vs Demandred?

IIRC it was so.

Would that make Flynn taking the first shot a little difficult because Corele (who is apparently not BA) would have to assume she/ her warder was in danger or else she would be choked off in the link?

Or would she cede control totally and just let him make that judgment call?

Or did Demandred take the first shot?

Flinn was in control of that link. Flinn is not bound by the Oaths.

 

Similar problems even for Elza and Verin since they were both linked to non-BA Aes Sedai.

Again, IIRC, Verin got around that because she tried to capture Graendal and only hit back later, after Graendal struck at her.

But Elza just flamed Dashiva on sight, using Callandor which means that Merise (?) would have to go along with Elza's judgment that Dashiva represented clear and present danger. Of course, this is possible since Merise probably knows that Dashiva tried to kill Rand in Carhein (TPoD).

My memories of WH are not so good because I haven't read it for years so I'd appreciate clarification.

Well, SL isn't exactly a busy place. Who is likely to be there? No innocent bystanders, possibly any AS or Asha'man who Travelled to see what was going on, but more than likely all you will be facing are Darkfriends. The Oaths are unlikely to be a problem in such a situation. Elza could see Dashiva and identify him as a renegade, so it wouldn't be a stretch for an AS to assume a renegade Asha'man there is up to no good.

 

Also, as it is the person in control of the link who decides what is done with the Power, any Oaths sworn by others in the link becomes moot - they are not using the OP as a weapon. Although the Oaths might prevent an AS agreeing to join a link that they thought might be used to violate the Oaths.

 

I think there's an RJ quote that directly contradicts your opinion.

If an AS sworn to the three ("good") oaths is in a link, the oaths still hold for her and she won't be able to contribute her mite to the link if the person in charge does something that she thinks would violate the oaths.

This could lead to a paradox where she dies I guess if the party in charge doesn't let her leave the link.

I'm sure Terez or Luckers can confirm this.

 

As to the guessing he's "not upto any good" - the AS still has to feel in danger to use killing weaves even if she's in a direct conflict and knows violence will be aimed at her shortly. Eg. Kiruna @ Dumai's Wells, Teslyn/ Joline/ Edesina in KoD. Admittedly for the reasons we've both mentioned Elza and Merise (more importantly since she's bound to the good oaths) might feel in danger in the circs.

[Mr Ares]

This one:

Q: Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?

RJ: No, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.

 

As I said, the AS couldn't join a circle that she believed would be used to violate the Oaths. Once she has already joined, she can't stop the Power being used that way, as she no longer has control.

[Sharaman]

So the first "out" here is that every AS who linked at the Cleansing felt in danger or assumed that the oaths wouldn't be broken by whatever was done by the Circle.

Fine.