Can we get technical on balefire, for a moment?

[Maverick8088]

Ok. When Rand BF'd Rahvin in TFOH, the thread was burned back to the point that Mat and Aviendha and the others were still alive. Not a short period of time since he had to chase Rahvin around through the palace. He channeled through the fat little man Angreal, which he said in TGH wasn't very powerful.

 

My question is do we know how much power equates to how much thread burn? What would happen if Rand channeled Balefire through the Choedan Kal?

[MetalMonkeyMood]

If Rand used his full power to wield balefire through the Choedan Kal, I think it would be safe to say that he would probably unravel the entire pattern right then and there. Lanfear told him that they could challenge the Creator Himself with the Choedan Kal; she was probably exagerating a bit but balefire wielded thourgh the Choedan Kal is probably enough to bring about exactly what the Dark One wants - the end of the pattern, at least for the world that Rand lives in.

[Maverick8088]

More than likely, yes. I guess I wasn't clear. If Balefire channeled through the fat little man angreal took the thread back an hour or so, how far back would the Choedan Kal take it?

 

The idea popped into my head one day that if Rand BF'd Shai'tan (or Lanfear/Cyndane, since she bored the hole)through the Choedan Kal, would we end the series in the AOL?

 

 

Understand, this is not a real well thought out idea, on my part. It just kind of occurred to me out of the blue.

[rochaid]

unraveling that much of the thread (especially shaitan's) would certainly lead to the unraveling of the pattern.

 

and a thread not such as huge as shaitan?(if the DO has a thread,he's not a person.IF he could be balefired)chaos theory would suggest huge implications

[Maverick8088]

Possibly so. I just had a stray thought and had to ask.

 

I would still like to know if there is some way to gauge the correllation of power/time. Maybe I'll put a question into RJ when that opens up again and he is feeling better. :D

[Darth_Teacup]

I agree that it's highly unlikely that Shai'tan himself has a thread. He is, after all, the embodiment of evil in the universe, the darkness to offset the light so to speak. I doubt something that fundamental can be burned out of the pattern by a mortal, even one wielding the Choe'dan Kal.

 

I wonder though... The Dark One, with his need to remake the world in his image, doubtless would enjoy chaos and unraveling of the pattern, yes? So why do the Dark One's minions fear balefire? There are several occasions on which the simple use of balefire would rid them of Rand forever. So why do they not use it? Rahvin could have toasted Rand any number of times, and that goes double for Sammael. Why the reluctance?

[GTPapabear]

That question is actually a lot simpler (is that a word?) to answer than you think.

So I will Quote From RJ himself!

Page 43 of "the World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time"

By RJ and Theresa Paterson

 

"This Wepon (balefire) was used liberally for a year by both side (during the War of the Shadow)- untill they discovered it's hidden cost. The searing energy of balefire did more than kill or destroy- it actually burned threads from the pattern.

Faced with the possible dissolution of existance, both sides, without formal agreement or truce, simply stopped using balefire. There was no point in winning a world if the world was utterly destroyed in the process. Even those who supported the Dark Lord wanted something left to rule."

 

 

Hope that Helps. :)

[Angel of Death]

I dont think the DO wants the pattern unravelled, he wants to reshape the world in his image. If the pattern unravells there will be no world to reshape. Thats why the forsaken dont just balefire the crap out of everything, and thats why both sides stopped using it in the AoL. Neither side wanted the pattern to be destoyed.

 

Well thats how i took it any way.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

I remember reading, in the prologue to LoC I think, the DO asking Demandred if he was willing to use balefire in the service of the Dark One. I always got the feeling from that statement that the DO wants his minions to use balefire and wreck the pattern, but they themselves are not willing to do that (with the exception of Ishmael/Moridin, who's a maniac anyhow). Perhaps the DO doesn't want to push his chosen too hard in this matter, because they might then refuse to serve him if they figure out that his ultimate aim is to break the wheel, not rule it.

[Mashiara]

I always thought that when the DO asked Demandred to release the balefire in his sevice, he was testing Demandreds level of loyalty...maybe i'm a little off...

[SinisterDeath]

Balefireing lanfear before she attended the boring of the do's prison, wouldn't have stopped the DO' from escaping... It was another person who actually did it, and Lanfear survived/and had the same goal as that said person...

[Maverick8088]

I thought it was Lanfear(Meirin) and the other guy (what the crap is his name!)working together who bored the hole.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's interesting to me that the followers of the Dark One don't want to use balefire, but the Dark One himself doesn't seem to fear it. I think all of the "Chosen", as well as Darkfriends in general, are dupes, with the single exception of Ishamael/Moridin. He knows that the Dark One intends to unravel the whole Pattern (what else would happen if he BREAKS the WHEEL). Remaking reality in his own image almost surely involves breaking all the current components completely down to chaos, then making a new creation. The Dark One is going to kill everyone and everything if he wins. Thats why Ishamael/Moridin stays on top even when he fails ... he knows the plan, and is ok with it because he's insane. I don't think any of the others do.

[rochaid]

maverick8o88;it was lanfear and beidomon together with other members of their research team who drilled the bore

[keith_rogers_irl]

I don't particularly think the Do really cares if Balefire is used. Seeing as he can change reality to some extent while still trapped (the shifting hallways etc.) He asked demy to use BF just to see if he was willing to do anything for him. If he breaks free then he won't need balefire to remake the pattern... seeing as the Creator is on holidays indefinatly

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree ... in fact, unless it takes away a useful tool before he's done with it, I think the DO has a warm little place in his heart for Balefire.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

If Rand used the Choeden Kal and his full strength for balefire to kill Rahvin the thread would be taken back years-everything Rahvin had done, all the people he had killed, would come back. If Rand used that much Saidin then the Pattern would unravel as so much had been undone. I doubt we will ever see this sort of thing happen obviously, but thats the way I see it

[moroten]

Lets say one of the forsaken balefire something and it disappear from the pattern completely.

 

But what if someone balefire that same forsaken later on and the balefire is strong enough to burn the thread to before he balefired the thing.

 

Would this be able to restore an allready burned thread?

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is exactly the kind of paradox that makes balefire so dangerous. And I really don't know what would happen, we haven't seen it, and you could make an argument both ways.

[Jarred Darque]

ok. If Crazymike made a post, and Luckers balefires him right afterwards, and then Majsju comes behind him and balefires him to the point before he balefired Crazymike, I still think that crazy mike would be dead, he was erased from the pattern after all.

 

Now, as for how far back in time balefire goes when used, I thnk it is an exponential function. We know that a balefire no more than an inch in diameter takes time back somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute I believe, judging by rands use of balefire on the hounds in rhuidien when mat is slobbered all over.

 

the balefire used on Rhavin looks to be about 1.5 feet in diameter, maybe a bit more (it says as thick as a man, which dimension are we talking about though here?) That balefire took events back at least 15 minutes, but we dont know how much beyond that...it coulda been hours and hours, or longer, or just a second past that.

 

so the time that balefire takes us back can be either linear, or exponential. The problem with alinear progression is that if you where to say an inch thick for each minute roughly, then in order to take it back a full day (they says days did they not talking about using balefire in AOL?) would require a stream of balefire 40 yards in diameter. 40 yards! I doubt they where wielding balefire that thick, so exponential is the only other possibility.

 

As to how much Rand can do, well, we know his limit with that fat man angreal, but how much does it increase his power, 1.5 times? or 10 times over? Also, how much does the Choedan Kal increase his power, I am thinking maybe 1k times his unaided ability?

 

Again, if we assume the fat man can increaes his power 5 fold, and the Choedan Kal 1k fold (all assumptions) and it where a linear progression then Rand, the strongest channeler around, could only make a balefire large enough to go back 2.08 days...again I believe it has to be exponential, of course, a differance in the power ration of the two angreal and sa'angreal would make a big differance.

[RobertAlexWillis]

An interesting theory. And, as you plainly admitted, based greatly on assumptions ...

 

 

Interesting nonetheless ...

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Is strength only measured by size of the channeling, or does something else factore in as well? Maybe instead of just physical thickness of the stream, there is also a strength factor as well.

[moroten]

I really doubt this connection.

 

As I understood it. People have been balefired out of total extinction (meaning his whole life was wiped out and not a couple of min of it).

 

In the war of power whole cities was wiped out this was due to the fact of the buildings being detroyd by the balefire or the people who built them being destroyd by the balefire.

[rochaid]

Is strength only measured by size of the channeling, or does something else factore in as well?

 

channeling strentgh shows how much of the power you can handle safely.but skill was regarded as more important in the age of legends,where amount could be covered with sa'angreal and numbers.some channelers with strentgh had little skill,and could therefore weave little.but usallt skill goes with strentgh.

 

in the AoL the person who lead the circle would be the person with the most skill,the most aptidude to learning and controlling complicated weaves

[Jarred Darque]

Moroten, that is why I believe the time time burned out is relatively exponential to the power put into the balefire. so that a 1 inch bar may take you back a minute, but a 2 inch bar instead of taking you have 2 minutes, would take you back 3 minutes, and a 4 inch bar maybe ten minutes, etc etc,